FH lag and flip stuff

[ByeByePoly]

1) I hate the term "Flip"
2) I don't hit the flip, but did briefly ... and think I understand it
3) I got stumped on a big part of the "flip" ... will explain below
4) The term "Flip" appears to have come from Macci ... his video is linked at the bottom
5) IMO, the best here describing the "Macci Flip" is @Limpinhitter. If the tt search facility ever works again, just search for his posts on the flip.
6) this is not the debate about "does the flip and lag happen naturally" ... that has been done 100s of times here and will again. I'm simply sharing a point that was a major stumbling block for me, and maybe others will have (or will) run into the same confusion. That will happen ... btw ... if you watch Fed FH videos.

OK.. @Dragy will accuse me of "thinking in pictures" ... but I haven't figured out another way to discuss tennis strokes. So for this post ... more pics and a DIY video.

Common pro FH lag:

Let me repeat #6 above. Just explaining an area I got stumped in.

I never could figure out why I couldn't get the butt cap pointed past the line to the ball. I could only get it pointed pretty much straight ahead. I watched Fed video, and the wrist laying back (extension) was pretty obvious. The rolling of the arm clockwise was not obvious to me. I know I heard many ... Limpin start talking ESR, ISR ... but it didn't click.

Here is my little DIY video:

1) The first hand flex (hand laid back) is showing "extension". I simulate releasing some of that extension by contact... which is the way I hit a FH.

2) The second hand movement with racquet held vertical, and swung right and left is the arm roll. I will let Limpin or someone else walk through all the flip arm roll vocabulary if they want to. I just want to make the point the arm roll is a thing... and required to get to that butt cap pointing past the line ... at least for me with an Eastern grip. Note: I would say Del Potro hits a 2-piece arm roll flip, and Fed hits a 3-piece arm roll flip. I will post a brief explanation in a follow up post. Already going to kill the server with this long post.

3) This is the main point of the thread. You can see my max racquet lag without the arm roll part. @FiReFTW may be right I could get more if an actual swing, because the dynamics of the racquet being left behind would cause more wrist flex (sorry Fire if I got your point wrong here). I don't think so ... because I laid my hand back to the max. If the swing caused more, that sounds like injury. But regardless, that's not the main point.

Here is the main point ... watch what happens when I roll the arm clockwise while holding the same laid back wrist position. That's all I did ... didn't flex the hand back anymore... just rolled the arm right with the laid back hand attached. Bingo ... butt cap pointed past the line. It took both the 1) extension ... and the 2) arm roll.

I had to "consciously" ... "actively" roll the arm right to get the full flip lag. After I hit enough of them, it started to fade to muscle memory. Maybe it means I had a setup flaw, or I could have picked a different one that caused this automatically. I have seen both sides of that debate here ... with both sides represented by knowledgeable members.

Macci FH video ... the dreaded tennis term "flip" is spawned. I listened to it again ... hey, it's not "Pat the Dog" ... it's "Tap the Dog". Who knew... bet Limpin knew:

 

[ByeByePoly]

Here is the summary version of the flip the way I understand it.

I'm just going to use supination and pronation for the rolls (could be external shoulder rotation (supination direction) or internal shoulder rotation (pronation direction). Yandell said once it's always the shoulder roll, and not forearm.

So the full flip is 3 parts... 1st part before slot, last two from slot forward until contact.

Before slot:

1) pronation ... most extreme example being Sock and Kyrgios pointing their racquet forward toward net during takeback

Then drop to slot ... Fed way is Tap the Dog ... Del Potro way is racquet on edge ... Thiem way kind of in betweed (watch Thiem videos ... it would be hard for his arm not to supinate the way he drops).

At the slot:

With the arm pronated before the drop, when it hits the slot the racquet head has all that running room from pronation to supination. You see it on some Fed FHs where it looks like his racquet is turning on top of a table. That's the full supination from the pre-slot pronation. The supination happens from the hand moving forward ... racquet hangs back and the arm supinates ... all from hand forward move.

From there, into contact ... you go from that full supination to pronating into contact.

That's the 3-piece gold standard. I think there is also the 2 step flip. I think Del Potro does this one. He doesn't do the pre-pronation before drop ... so when he hits the slot with racquet on edge he just does the supination without the pre-pronation. From there, it's the same as all of them ... pronation into contact.

Again ... when the tt search function works, search for Limpin posts on the flip. Just from memory, I think he had some great posts in @tdk 's 50th birthday video post.

 

[FiReFTW]

Why don't you shoot a video from the side, have a really relaxed arm and barely hold the grip, let the racquet flop around, shake it a bit to get the loose feeling, then try to swing and see how much lag you get? That would be quite interesting to see.

The racquet lag and the roll all happen as a result of the swing, the more low to high the swing the more roll happens, you should really try this to see:

Set up a camera to videotape u from the side, then get in this position :

Upper body separation, racquet in the pat the dog position, arm extended, LOOOSE grip and arm

Now bend ur legs down, and then push up and start uncoiling ur hips, core, shoulders.. and let that drag the arm forward, all while having a loose grip

Try a few swings like this, and change how much low to high u swing, little to alot

You could also try to stop the forward swing just around "imaginary contact" and let the arm just gradualy stop, without following through around, to see what happens

If you do all this right you almost HAVE to get racquet lag, and the more low to high you swing, you SHOULD see the racquet rolling around more and more simply from the momentum of the forward and upward swing.

Try this really, I would be very interesting in seeing ur results and seeing the video

 

[ByeByePoly]

@FiReFTW ... good reply. I understand all that, it was just never automatic for me. I just posted this to explain the extra arm roll that has to happen to get to that max lag position. I got stumped ... I figure others might also. Do you remember geca? He said rec players (his students) often had to get the initial arm roll with an active action at first. To me, it doesn't matter how one gets there, as long as you get there in the end.

Regardless, I'm not trying to hit the flip, so I won't be investing anymore time with it on the court. You saw my 2hbh ... my practice time is booked up.

 

[iChen]

You’re going through too many minute stuff with 2HBH. You just gotta take a look at the fact that you may be late cause you do a takeback swing instead of just taking racquet back. The contact looks so improved. And minimal sunny side runny eggs now.

I’d do that tip. Really loose arm and swinging with cam on side. To be honest I’d want to see @tlm do that too.

 

[Sam Pras]

I think people are making a monstrous Mountain out of a molehill. Thinking about things like lagging and flipping ext, that don't have any fundamental value.
Tennis isn't nearly as complicated or difficult as people make it seem. You just need to learn the correct things to practice and practice a whole lot.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

I think people are making a monstrous Mountain out of a molehill. Thinking about things that don't have any fundamental value.
It's impossible to improve if you don't know the fundamental things to practice and lag and flip and whatever other terms people come up with are not fundamentals.
Tennis isn't as complicated and difficult as people make it out to be. You just need to learn the correct things to practice, the fundamental things and then you keep practicing them until you develop muscle memory or brain memory or whatever term you like.

Eventually after practicing enough fundamentals you no longer think about the them and a whole bunch of good things naturally occur but it takes real training and significant practice. In another thread I commented that it took me about 20,000 practice serves before I felt that I had a really good handle on the fundamentals of the serve.

They're looking for a magic pill. Something that will compensate for
1. No practice time.
2. No talent.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You’re going through too many minute stuff with 2HBH. You just gotta take a look at the fact that you may be late cause you do a takeback swing instead of just taking racquet back. The contact looks so improved. And minimal sunny side runny eggs now.

I’d do that tip. Really loose arm and swinging with cam on side. To be honest I’d want to see @tlm do that too.

We are talking FH lags here ... I think. I had to check ... yeah, FH lag and arm rotation (flip).

I'm late on the 2hbh? Cr@p. I haven't checked, but I feel better about all flavors of my bh contact and prep than my FH. Always has been that way... always will. FH has been the bad child.

 

[ByeByePoly]

They're looking for a magic pill. Something that will compensate for
1. No practice time.
2. No talent.

No ... and I'm surprised after all the time we battled Limpin together over forearm/racquet angle release at contact, you would call this trivial. See my reply to Sam.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

No ... and I'm surprised after all the time we battled Limpin together over forearm/racquet angle release at contact, you would call this trivial. See my reply to Sam.

Just because I don't mind talking about this sort of stuff to kill time, I know it won't make me a better player.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think people are making a monstrous Mountain out of a molehill. Thinking about things like lagging and flipping ext, that don't have any fundamental value.
Tennis isn't nearly as complicated or difficult as people make it seem. You just need to learn the correct things to practice and practice a whole lot.

Hey Sam ... welcome to the forum.

You said:

"Thinking about things like lagging and flipping ext, that don't have any fundamental value."

Let me offer you a contrarian view. Since I don't know anything about you, or your level of play, I'm just asking generic questions.

1) do you know about forearm-to-racquet lag? It is the angle created between your forearm and racquet ... Del Potro pic in the original post.

OK ... you either knew about the lag, or do now.

2) do you think having that lag, or no lag matters?

If the answer is no, this thread doesn't apply to you (most rec players ... 95+%). For "some" players, it matters a lot if they have the lag. That tends to be a lot of the tt member audience here. It's the late release of the racquet lag that allows pros to hit such big FHs from short backswings. Most rec players NEVER need to know about this, or discuss it, or worry about it.

So most rec players would bolt on the discussion at this point ... and it does indeed not matter to them or their game. It adds no value to their game. But it matters to others, so you are broad brushing to wide to say this should not matter to anyone and they should just go practice. I hit the first 40 of my 45 years of tennis without the FH lag. Did just fine ... never needed to add it. But I did (a little lag anyway), and I can say I hit my FH better than I did before (which makes you wonder how bad it was before. )

Big assumption you are still curious at this point ... but I will continue:

3) if a player decides they do care about that lag, and potential power boost, a good initial question for them is "Do they know if they create racquet lag in their FH stroke"? Do you know? Most of us have never videoed ourselves hit a tennis ball. That is wise btw... it can be a painful, humbling experience. But if you care about "the lag", you have to check and see if you are actually already doing it. That takes videoing yourself, or a coach/instructor telling you. Lag happens fast ... so I pretty much think you need slow motion video. I watched a very good player playing next to me (probably ex-D1) one day this summer. It was pretty obvious he generated quite a bit of lag. But good luck watching real time if he was doing the full arm roll flip thing. My guess is an experienced instructor could pick it out... but I couldn't, and I knew what I was looking for. I asked him on changeover if he hit the "flip". After he understood I was talking about arm rotation before contact, he said ... I have no idea. I figure you (and the Gorilla will enjoy that).

But here is the deal, at least it was for me. If you decided you wanted to go from the traditional no-lag FH like McEnroe (kind of what I did) to a FH with some "lag" ... it's not that straightforward. I would go as far as to say the average adult player SHOULD NOT change their FH if it working at your level, and you are happy. I did it because I'm older... past tournaments... love tennis, and now find enjoyment in the technical aspects of tennis strokes. It has "value" to me ... but I'm not under any illusion that much of it will make my game better. If you could give me back my 28 year old legs with my tiny shoulder turn... I will take that right now, thank you very much, and stuff this lag cr@p.

So that's my best contrarian reply ... "lag or not" can matter to some. If the player has a quality instructor, they can produce the intended stroke without understanding much at all about it technically. But that "lag" thing just isn't going to happen automatically coming from many years of Mac continental FHs. It's going to take an instructor, or a lot of DIY.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Just because I don't mind talking about this sort of stuff to kill time, I know it won't make me a better player.

OK ... I agree with this. But that is what I'm doing ... "killing time with this lag stuff" ... different than avoiding practice. I'm wearing that ball machine out. I can only practice so long at 59 ... leaves a lot of bs forum time to kill.

I need me some more Gorilla video. I enjoyed that. Almost as much as I love you and tlm going at it.

 

[enishi1357]

I'm gonna sound nut here so here's my thought. Tennis is many things. Don't box yourself inside set of rules. I didn't and I discovered what works for me. If it's any reconciliation, I might feel like a hot shot every now and then but at the end of the day it only applies to tennis and nowadays I haven't tennis for months. I got bored now that I got it and at the end it's the journey that matters.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think people are making a monstrous Mountain out of a molehill. Thinking about things like lagging and flipping ext, that don't have any fundamental value.
Tennis isn't nearly as complicated or difficult as people make it seem. You just need to learn the correct things to practice and practice a whole lot.

"You just need to learn the correct things to practice and practice a whole lot."

Got a list. I have a hard time figuring out what should make the list, and what is molehills. I read one of your other posts, and see you have been around coaches. I need that list.

I can tell you one lately that is clicking with me (not that I do it great yet) is the extension thing. I have heard that mentioned here often, but really didn't understand what they were talking about. For me, it just feels like exaggerated follow through toward the net. I really notice it trying to work on my 2hbh. When I think "reach/extend" toward the net after contact... it really does create a more solid feeling contact/stroke.

I saw how many serves you were doing. Man... my arm would fall off. I had my first TE last year... I doubt I ever serve a basket of balls again.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm gonna sound nut here so here's my thought. Tennis is many things. Don't box yourself inside set of rules. I didn't and I discovered what works for me. If it's any reconciliation, I might feel like a hot shot every now and then but at the end of the day it only applies to tennis and nowadays I haven't tennis for months. I got bored now that I got it and at the end it's the journey that matters.

If you are nuts ... you are in the right place.

 

[dennis]

What's your throwing action like? Try throwing a ball at the net tape from the baseline, keeping the ball around waist height while you're holding on to it (not an overarm throw). Is this anything like your forehand? Also, it looks from the video above you might benefit from holding the grip further down so part of your hand is below the grip.

 

[Shroud]

1) I hate the term "Flip"
2) I don't hit the flip, but did briefly ... and think I understand it
3) I got stumped on a big part of the "flip" ... will explain below
4) The term "Flip" appears to have come from Macci ... his video is linked at the bottom
5) IMO, the best here describing the "Macci Flip" is @Limpinhitter. If the tt search facility ever works again, just search for his posts on the flip.
6) this is not the debate about "does the flip and lag happen naturally" ... that has been done 100s of times here and will again. I'm simply sharing a point that was a major stumbling block for me, and maybe others will have (or will) run into the same confusion. That will happen ... btw ... if you watch Fed FH videos.

OK.. @Dragy will accuse me of "thinking in pictures" ... but I haven't figured out another way to discuss tennis strokes. So for this post ... more pics and a DIY video.

Common pro FH lag:

Let me repeat #6 above. Just explaining an area I got stumped in.

I never could figure out why I couldn't get the butt cap pointed past the line to the ball. I could only get it pointed pretty much straight ahead. I watched Fed video, and the wrist laying back (extension) was pretty obvious. The rolling of the arm clockwise was not obvious to me. I know I heard many ... Limpin start talking ESR, ISR ... but it didn't click.

Here is my little DIY video:

1) The first hand flex (hand laid back) is showing "extension". I simulate releasing some of that extension by contact... which is the way I hit a FH.

2) The second hand movement with racquet held vertical, and swung right and left is the arm roll. I will let Limpin or someone else walk through all the flip arm roll vocabulary if they want to. I just want to make the point the arm roll is a thing... and required to get to that butt cap pointing past the line ... at least for me with an Eastern grip. Note: I would say Del Potro hits a 2-piece arm roll flip, and Fed hits a 3-piece arm roll flip. I will post a brief explanation in a follow up post. Already going to kill the server with this long post.

3) This is the main point of the thread. You can see my max racquet lag without the arm roll part. @FiReFTW may be right I could get more if an actual swing, because the dynamics of the racquet being left behind would cause more wrist flex (sorry Fire if I got your point wrong here). I don't think so ... because I laid my hand back to the max. If the swing caused more, that sounds like injury. But regardless, that's not the main point.

Here is the main point ... watch what happens when I roll the arm clockwise while holding the same laid back wrist position. That's all I did ... didn't flex the hand back anymore... just rolled the arm right with the laid back hand attached. Bingo ... butt cap pointed past the line. It took both the 1) extension ... and the 2) arm roll.

I had to "consciously" ... "actively" roll the arm right to get the full flip lag. After I hit enough of them, it started to fade to muscle memory. Maybe it means I had a setup flaw, or I could have picked a different one that caused this automatically. I have seen both sides of that debate here ... with both sides represented by knowledgeable members.

Macci FH video ... the dreaded tennis term "flip" is spawned. I listened to it again ... hey, it's not "Pat the Dog" ... it's "Tap the Dog". Who knew... bet Limpin knew:

First off that diy vid. OMG. Thanks for the decapitated vid!!!

Its not a dig but mad respect. Its rare to have a body so wonderful that the head detracts from perfection. At least thats what the porn director said when I auditioned and in 2 seconds he said “gloryhole”....ah the gold old days.

Anyhow dude what tf is that video showing. There is no flip and am I the only on that thinks its not good to actively do the flip? Like it has to happen on its own. You cant consciously do it and get the same results as when it happens as a consequence of proper mechanics

Fwiw Yandell got me doing the flip but never mentioned anything remotely close to that concept

And dont you have a bh to fix first?? And really dude NOTHING screams 3.0 like a Tournagripped handle.

 

[ByeByePoly]

First off that diy vid. OMG. Thanks for the decapitated vid!!!

Its not a dig but mad respect. Its rare to have a body so wonderful that the head detracts from perfection. At least thats what the porn director said when I auditioned and in 2 seconds he said “gloryhole”....ah the gold old days.

Anyhow dude what tf is that video showing. There is no flip and am I the only on that thinks its not good to actively do the flip? Like it has to happen on its own. You cant consciously do it and get the same results as when it happens as a consequence of proper mechanics

Fwiw Yandell got me doing the flip but never mentioned anything remotely close to that concept

And dont you have a bh to fix first?? And really dude NOTHING screams 3.0 like a Tournagripped handle.

Jeeze ... @Curious is already on my a $ $ for my long posts taking the server down. How am I suppose to reply to "this" pithy?

I will give it a shot:

- gave tt a break with the decapitation ... but I am a hand model like George Constanza
- never dropping the tournagrip ... at death, I want to be wrapped ... a tournagrip mummy
- no dude, not showing the flip. I showed my limited butt cap forward with only laying wrist back. I had to ALSO roll arm to get the butt cap pointing past the line ... required for your automatic Yandell flip if it was any good
- had nothing to do with whether you can get all of it to happen automatically. If you can, don't read this thread, go watch tv or make some more tennis strings.

"Fwiw Yandell got me doing the flip but never mentioned anything remotely close to that concept"

Not a concept ... required wrist and arm movements. Not required "active" movements, they just have to happen.

And finally you got something right. I can't get a 2hbh and do the Tips and Techniques forum. I need to limit myself to 2hbh and strings forum. They are calmer there.

You are killing me.

 

[ByeByePoly]

What's your throwing action like? Try throwing a ball at the net tape from the baseline, keeping the ball around waist height while you're holding on to it (not an overarm throw). Is this anything like your forehand? Also, it looks from the video above you might benefit from holding the grip further down so part of your hand is below the grip.

Thx Dennis. See my reply to Shroud. I'm not trying to hit a flip or show it in that video. I am just showing required movement at the hand to create the big racquet lag like Del Potro pic above. I'm not trying to learn/hit a flip fh.

 

[Shroud]

Jeeze ... @Curious is already on my a $ $ for my long posts taking the server down. How am I suppose to reply to "this" pithy?

I will give it a shot:

- gave tt a break with the decapitation ... but I am a hand model like George Constanza
- never dropping the tournagrip ... at death, I want to be wrapped ... a tournagrip mummy
- no dude, not showing the flip. I showed my limited butt cap forward with only laying wrist back. I had to ALSO roll arm to get the butt cap pointing past the line ... required for your automatic Yandell flip if it was any good
- had nothing to do with whether you can get all of it to happen automatically. If you can, don't read this thread, go watch tv or make some more tennis strings

Jeeze ... I swear there is a "do it automatically" tennis taliban. It's like pinging a fricken nerve. Strange thing to take so seriously. It's like someone figured out a way to get out of homework ... and someone comes along and threatens it.

"Fwiw Yandell got me doing the flip but never mentioned anything remotely close to that concept"

Not a concept ... required wrist and arm movements. Not required "active" movements, they just have to happen.

And finally you got something right. I can't get a 2hbh and do the Tips and Techniques forum. I need to limit myself to 2hbh and strings forum. They are calmer there.

You are killing me.

Lol. Explains why when I saw that vid I first thought “oh god not the head dont show the head”. Followed by “george??”

I never get anything right and the one time I did it was becauee I was wrong

Let me clear up the Yandell deal. You write that they have to happen and are a series of wrist and hand movements. Sure Ok. But he never showed them to me. I dont know what they are but alas they happen when I get the proper setup and proper follow through.

You are way overthinking this and I dont think you are getting the setup right so yeah the stuff after maybe hard to have happen. Really that fh is great no need to f it up with modern stuff. At 59 you probably have a year tops left anyhow. Just enjoy being on the court

Yeah, I am much nicer when I poast on the string forum..

That said if you STILL want to go all modern, I will get the pom poms and start cheering. But remember your friend Shroud who tried to talk you out of it! Just get a great contract with @ChaelAZ productions. Make sure you get paid for every viewing

And get the mummy deal in writing or wifey will have you in a tux or something.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Lol. Explains why when I saw that vid I first thought “oh god not the head dont show the head”. Followed by “george??”

I never get anything right and the one time I did it was becauee I was wrong

Let me clear up the Yandell deal. You write that they have to happen and are a series of wrist and hand movements. Sure Ok. But he never showed them to me. I dont know what they are but alas they happen when I get the proper setup and proper follow through.

You are way overthinking this and I dont think you are getting the setup right so yeah the stuff after maybe hard to have happen. Really that fh is great no need to f it up with modern stuff. At 59 you probably have a year tops left anyhow. Just enjoy being on the court

Yeah, I am much nicer when I poast on the string forum..

That said if you STILL want to go all modern, I will get the pom poms and start cheering. But remember your friend Shroud who tried to talk you out of it! Just get a great contract with @ChaelAZ productions. Make sure you get paid for every viewing

And get the mummy deal in writing or wifey will have you in a tux or something.

Back away from the wine.

- I don't want to hit the modern flip fh

- I'm not over-thinking this ... I over-thought it last year. I was just sharing my notes.

 

[Shroud]

Back away from the wine.

- I don't want to hit the modern flip fh

- I'm not over-thinking this ... I over-thought it last year. I was just sharing my notes.

For not wanting to hit it you sure keep talking about the flip me thinks tho dost...

Moving on to tequila

 

[ByeByePoly]

For not wanting to hit it you sure keep talking about the flip me thinks tho dost...

Moving on to tequila

Subconscious flip envy

 

[Limpinhitter]

@FiReFTW ... good reply. I understand all that, it was just never automatic for me. I just posted this to explain the extra arm roll that has to happen to get to that max lag position. I got stumped ... I figure others might also. Do you remember geca? He said rec players (his students) often had to get the initial arm roll with an active action at first. To me, it doesn't matter how one gets there, as long as you get there in the end.

Regardless, I'm not trying to hit the flip, so I won't be investing anymore time with it on the court. You saw my 2hbh ... my practice time is booked up.

You're over thinking it. If you can assume the Federer's posture in that picture above, in particular the structure and position of his arm and racquet, at the end of your backswing, maintain a loose, relaxed arm and grip, and initiate your forward swing with hip rotation, the rest should be pretty much self executing. It's not necessary to "get max lag position," if by that you mean supination. Whatever your flexibility allows is good enough.

 

[Limpinhitter]

* * *

"1) do you know about forearm-to-racquet lag? It is the angle created between your forearm and racquet . . . ."

* * *

I'm Foghorn Leghorn, you're the dog.

 

[Shroud]

You're over thinking it. If you can assume the Federer's posture in that picture above, in particular the structure and position of his arm and racquet, at the end of your backswing, maintain a loose, relaxed arm and grip, and initiate your forward swing with hip rotation, the rest should be pretty much self executing. It's not necessary to "get max lag position," if by that you mean supination. Whatever your flexibility allows is good enough.

Oh dear. You had to play the overthinking it card. Getting the popcorn

 

[Sam Pras]

Got a list. I have a hard time figuring out what should make the list,

It is not surprising that you don't know what to practice.. why would you? You're not a teaching pro or advanced player.

I can tell you from personal experience with my daughter that a list wouldn't be very helpful without the direction of a teaching pro or someone who is qualified.

It took me 4-5 years of obsessive learning, helping my daughter, to separate the junk from the stuff that matters and I can tell you that most of the things that untrained players talk about is the junk that doesn't matter.
I could fill a book with things that don't work. I could tell you how my daughter wasted two years practicing her serve with zero improvement and how she practiced the correct things for 15 minutes and hit the best serves of her young life.

 

[Dragy]

Here is the main point ... watch what happens when I roll the arm clockwise while holding the same laid back wrist position. That's all I did ... didn't flex the hand back anymore... just rolled the arm right with the laid back hand attached. Bingo ... butt cap pointed past the line. It took both the 1) extension ... and the 2) arm roll.

My latest experience with strong eastern grip was having spread grip and not-that-tight point finger is also crucial to let the racquet pivot into slot. So ESR, supination, extension and freedom for handle within the hand grip.

 

[SinjinCooper]

• Loose arm, fairly straight during takeback
• Loose wrist
• Grip choked down so palm is below butt of grip
• Let racquet fall from high takeback
• Swing forward before it falls all the way, keeping the arm relaxed and leading the swing with the shoulder

Do this, and every bit of the seemingly complex wrist and hand action associated with the Federer/Delpo forehand (which is actually just shoulder action coupled with a wrist pulled back by inertia at the start of the swing) happens effortlessly.

The choked down grip is not "necessary" to hit a good FH. It does, however, accentuate lag and subsequent racquet motion, and accounts for most of the seemingly superhuman wrist flexibility seen on stills of straight arm FH's.

Do not balk because, "Federer doesn't do it that way." He doesn't have to, because he's a one-in-a-trillion athlete. You, whoever you are dear reader, aren't. For you: loose arm, racquet drop, interrupt the drop with the swing. Simplicity itself.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You're over thinking it. If you can assume the Federer's posture in that picture above, in particular the structure and position of his arm and racquet, at the end of your backswing, maintain a loose, relaxed arm and grip, and initiate your forward swing with hip rotation, the rest should be pretty much self executing. It's not necessary to "get max lag position," if by that you mean supination. Whatever your flexibility allows is good enough.

"the rest should be pretty much self executing."

I wonder why we ever learn tennis and golf with "conscious swing thoughts". It should all be automatic.

Dear beginner flipper reader ... do yourself a favor. On day one of flipping, rotate your arm clockwise at the start of the swing from the slot. You don't even have to do all the other things on Sinjin's list above at first. Get the feeling of "whipping the racquet". Now go do the stuff on Sinjin's list above. Everything on the list is to facilitate that "whipping of the racquet". The whipping should become passive and subconscious. Then ... after you hit it "good enough", decide if that is the FH you want, or one you will be able to turn into a quality repeatable stroke.

 

[heninfan99]

I don't see a need for someone to re-explain what Macci explains so well. Just know it's advanced, you'd don't see that fluid power in park tennis usually or below 4.5.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Happy turkey day heninfan, others

Not sure if you meant me, but I’m not re-explaining Macci. I thought I just posted a simple explanation of required supination in the swing to get big lag. Didn’t seem controversial when I typed it. Not for anyone not interested in a technical explanation ... and was not intended to teach or litigate the flip. I posted the second post because I had typed it recently.

Anyway ... note to self ... flip is a serious subject. Tread lightly.

 

[AnyPUG]

@ByeByePoly your old thread on flip. The "flip" term is used to describe a lot simpler motion than what you are trying to explain, do you agree?

"The Flip" is taking the racket down and back, period!

At 7:00

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly your old thread on flip. The "flip" term is used to describe a lot simpler motion than what you are trying to explain, do you agree?

"The Flip" is taking the racket down and back, period!

No.

2017 ... lol.

Mac takes the racquet down and back without butt cap lag and without flip

Halep takes racquet down and back with butt cap lag but without flip

Fed takes the racquet down and back with butt cap lag and with flip.

Flip requires a backwards arm roll (upper arm External Shoulder rotation/lower arm Supination) at butt cap forward which gets reversed with arm roll forward (upper arm Internal Shoulder rotation, lower arm pronation) into contact.i

Note: Limpinhitter used to point out some players might use more upper arm than lower arm ... and vice versa ... so likely not accurate to say all arm rolling is equal (say between a bent arm fh player and a striaght arm fh player. The important bit imo is the rolling.

That's how it's defined/discussed here at ttw anyway ... who knows what is in Macci's head. In that video he suggests "elbow extension" into pat the dog. That will come as a shock to Djokovic who hits a bent arm flip. Should we all be hitting straight arm FHs and playing s&v ... of course.

I referenced Limpinhitter in first post (miss him) ... search his posts. Curiosity posts are also great. Topspin shot created a short video that would have saved all of us typing in the 1000s of words ob the subject.

@Dragy ... talk to Pug ... you are actually hitting the stroke, I just view it from a distance.

 

[Dragy]

@Dragy ... talk to Pug ... you are actually hitting the stroke, I just view it from a distance.

I'm hitting some red clay starting from last Sat... Twice so far... First was a mini-tourney That's disturbing to my flippin', but need to fight (flow?) through.
@AnyPUG I've always understood "flip" as racquet pivot from tip up/forward/sideways to back & down as player pulls the handle. I think it's quite a generalized description of what's going on, as I'd prefer to see entering the slot as first, gentle move, and then transitioning to major acceleration forcing racquet head into big lag. So the term "flip" is helpful to name particular technical style, but not so much to understand and develop this style.