RHS may be hurting your fh
- Thread starter Shroud
- Start date
Dragy
Legend
I think what he shows and what is to be achieved is actually a release. What he shows as wrong is pulling through contact and collapsing the stroke.
So, by contact the major acceleration effort is complete and the racquet should cruise into the contact “by itself”. That’s a well covered concept.
So, by contact the major acceleration effort is complete and the racquet should cruise into the contact “by itself”. That’s a well covered concept.
Dragy
Legend
@Shroud to add, I'm not actually saying the vid is useless or smth, the issue does exist, and I personally can confirm sometimes the cure feels exactly like he suggests - you back off somewhere before contact and bah! effortless power, great shape, clean contact. I don't like a tad the way he puts it, I mean this doesn't reduce RHS if not the opposite
Is RHS the issue or poor technique?
When he shows how too much RHS can cause control issues, he's basically exaggerating to just show someone slapping at the ball. Isn't that actually poor technique that is causing the control issues than RHS? Now, if the argument is lower level rec players might be confusing poor technique with RHS, that's fine. No arguments with that, and they need to learn better control / better technique first.
When he shows how too much RHS can cause control issues, he's basically exaggerating to just show someone slapping at the ball. Isn't that actually poor technique that is causing the control issues than RHS? Now, if the argument is lower level rec players might be confusing poor technique with RHS, that's fine. No arguments with that, and they need to learn better control / better technique first.
I could be wrong but I think this way was taught more in the late 90's/early 2000 and still works if you stand further back on the baseline..
Then some pros started standing in more and the ball was on them faster.... thus wrapping the finish quicker and lower
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
agreed.
i like teaching folks topspin from too fronts...
* slow and controlled - like this vid... or mini tennis, etc...
* as fast as you can - ie. don't care about where it lands... hit the back fence, then keep closing your racquet face until you're getting the right angle, and topspin to bring the ball down...
IMO the slow & controlled way, can get too "army" and stiff (eg. as seen by folks not allowing the racquet drop during mini tennis)... whereas, "swinging for the fences" often gets the looseness and fluidity i'm looking for (but not always).
Dragy
Legend
I have a tad tangent idea for the thread, but related to your "closing your racquet face" pointer. Analyzing some issues with hitting long with my extreme eastern grip (settled there before ever new Fed does) I surprisingly noticed, and was told by a coach also, I was hitting too much in front (and not enough to the side of the body). So for me personally closing racquet face is more about getting some extra space from the ball and actually allowing the ball come a bit deeper into my strike zone. With a true SW grip I'm ok hitting more in front. Have you looked at the issue in such a way, maybe encountered through your practice? How should I address this?
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
imo, if you start with "let me aim for back fence",... presuming no one told you... i think your body would eventually find the ideal contact point for your grip (ie. eastern grip contact is "later" than sw and w)...
then start closing the racquet face... but there are several checkpoints i'd also look for
* low to high swing (are you getting under the ball)
* finish over shoulder (or close to it)
i think if i were hitting with an eastern grip and making contact "too far in front", it would affect my finish (ie. tend to finish at my hip, and not at/near shoulder...
typical adjustments will either be (a) wait (b) start shifting your grip more to sw or w
Dragy
Legend
I think I meet the checkpoints. The issue with (a) is if I wait, Or if I'm eventually late, I'm jammed and collapsing the swing with accross chicken wing swing. The solution shall be wider spacing, and then wait... But whenever I'm good with some hand feeds or deliberate cooperative practice, I cannot transfer to more real balls and actual points play. I see the ball early, I move, turn, create space to the right... to only recognize the ball is coming too close and I either extend forward (up to my arm being almost 90 deg to the next and wrist laid back to square the racquet face to target direction), or I swing with bent arm.
I've had lots of thought about grip switch, but never did because well, my grip is decent, and wtf is so hard in figuring out the spacing? I'm actually rather consistent with spacing, just too close... Also grip shift causes an adjustment period, while practice requred in both cases =) So I dunno. Either go with experiment for several sessions and look how it works, or practice the hell out of proper spacing.
Some practice shots - check how long the arm looks (being in front rather than to the side) and how racquet face is vertiacal to just open on most shots.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
strokes look good to me...
IMO, improving footwork to optimize spacing is forever and ongoing process... and will continue as the pace/spin of your opponent's ball increases..
when i hit with folks better than me, i encounter teh same issue... late, spacing is not optimal, etc... can only hope to continue hitting with that level of player, so i can continue to keep fighting for optimal spacing against a more challenging ball.
#1 thing you can do, IMO, is to know exactly where my ideal contact point should be (for whatever grip you're using),... then fight like hell (footwork) to be in the right position for the ideal contact...
Dragy
Legend
You know, I get the ideal contact point concept, in theory. I can find it and shadowswing all day into it. In the meantime, with real ball perception shifts: I don't get the look of ideal contact point, only feel when it happens. And a visual preceeding that feel is incoming ball, and I have to committ to position and swing some fractions of seconds in advance, even if I stay active with my adjustment footwork as long as possible. Now the case is, those incoming balls are different, between opponents, between surfaces, between hanging the baseline and falling back, hitting on the rise, peak, descend. And the issue for me mostly is not lack of footwork to get to ideal contact point, but poor judgement of incoming balls. The typical situation is a ball coming to me, I adjust and am sure I'm perfectly set to only realise as I swing the yellow thing coming closer to my body than desired, and I now pull my swing in to put the stringbed on it at least somehow
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
makes sense.You know, I get the ideal contact point concept, in theory. I can find it and shadowswing all day into it. In the meantime, with real ball perception shifts: I don't get the look of ideal contact point, only feel when it happens. And a visual preceeding that feel is incoming ball, and I have to committ to position and swing some fractions of seconds in advance, even if I stay active with my adjustment footwork as long as possible. Now the case is, those incoming balls are different, between opponents, between surfaces, between hanging the baseline and falling back, hitting on the rise, peak, descend. And the issue for me mostly is not lack of footwork to get to ideal contact point, but poor judgement of incoming balls. The typical situation is a ball coming to me, I adjust and am sure I'm perfectly set to only realise as I swing the yellow thing coming closer to my body than desired, and I now pull my swing in to put the stringbed on it at least somehow
judgement just comes from seeing millions of balls.
on the fh, i used to "reach out like i'm grabbing the ball" (which would not be to far from my ideal-contact), then swing at the last second.
i'd also use my left hand as my "painters" thumb to give me a better reference point.
D
Deleted member 742196
Guest
Totally agree with this, first thing you need to do is develop feel and control. Anyone can smack the ball hard, someone that picks up a racquet for the first time can hit as hard as many pros.
How to control the ball and still swing hard is the key. For this you need to develop a smooth swing with as few kinks as possible.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Great comment.
I think Salzy's vid sort of dances around the issue a bit, but what I hope he is trying to address is the overbearing pressure for more and more RHS on all strokes. Sure, every coach isn't making this mistake, but wow is it prevalent today. Nearly every student we get who has trained at big academies talks about how they were pushed to swing so hard all the time and some are only 10-12 yrs old.... I'm more concerned with appropriate RHS for the intended shot.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
Have you tried semi open stance?
Dragy
Legend
If I understand you correctly, you mean putting out the racquet arm towards the side fence, and this definitely worked against fast balls as a type of compact windup. However, with a tad slower rhythm/pace I experienced issues related to:
- troubles with producing own power, therefore putting that arm farther back, therefore compromising the idea of setting the spacing by this move;
- tightenning, not dropping the arm and racquet below the ball, no flowing U-shape swing initiation.
I just checked my Monday's match video, and I'm actually mostly using semi-open stance for baseline hitting. I use neutral stepping into the court, and as on that practice video - against slower, sitting balls. Seem to be conceptually in right place. One issue with my semi-open stance is, however, not loading and driving from my legs enough. Neutral stance forward transfer works a bit differently, and I mostly do it nicely. But one-foot-pivot/off the back foot hit is not that natural to me.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
the "painter's thumb" reference idea, is just a cue... eventually you won't need it... ie. i use my leading shoulder as my spacing reference.
but still works with no-pace balls (my guess is you'll trying to overhit - ie. taking a bigger wind up - just focus on solid contact and placement vs. trying to outright crush the ball... when you sort out your spacing issues, then try crushing).
tightening... that's just alot of reps, practice, and berating myself ("stay loose, drop racquet, etc...")... you probably don't have the swing path ingrained,... so you're tightening to guide the racquet to that swing path.
Dragy
Legend
Once again, "reach out like i'm grabbing the ball" and "left hand as my "painters" thumb" are same? I thought the former is about right arm.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
same... don't understand "former is about right arm"
Dragy
Legend
You could reach out with the racquet arm to right behind the ball like a "0" backswing... But lets leave it as you didn't mean that, just my misunderstanding.
With regard to no-pace balls, I experienced issues, but seem to have figured them out. As far as I understand, issues with short balls happen due to several reasons:
- generally missing the fact that the target is closer and net is closer, so the shape should be different, be that achieved by slower pace, higher spin, lower trajectory or all of the said combined;
- subconciously aiming for same impact sensation as marker of good shot and swinging harder, while it may be much softer with same pace outcome compared to counter-punches;
- waiting for the ball in a same manner as against penetrating shots, then swinging at last instance once the ball hasn't come to the ideal contact zone by itself.
Now I consistently step into such shots, work the shape of the shot, keep the swing free and flowing and try to place it deliberately, have success more than not. I also hit some high sitters with good "kill" attitude by really going after them with hop footwork, by not hesitating any smallest bit.
Tightenning happens with direct takeback against slower balls, like moonballs. Just takes some tightness holding my arm sticked out. Cured by loop and "dropping" wait. Against faster balls more direct "drop" works, as I don't have to hold the racquet there, just put, and it's already good time to start the swing.
(Nole and Sascha on court)
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
short no-pace balls... take a much shorter backswing to control energy into shot... don't necessarily change the swing path.
You know, your arm does look kind of "long" but when I went frame by frame, your swing looks pretty good. What I noticed however is that your swing perhaps lacks acceleration into impact. It's more of a long and slow motion rather than a loose and snap motion. To use an analogy, it's like painting a wall versus striking a match. Overall however, I think this is a darn good looking FH you have. If you are using eastern grip, you could be making life a lot more difficult than it needs to be. Going more western will more or less automatically solve the issue of the open face at contact.
Watch how he has a loose swing with tremendous acceleration into impact.
Dragy
Legend
Yeah you are right about acceleration, and I made a video to compare two different kinds of shots to dicscuss in here:
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yep ... your FH still looks good in this video like the last time I saw it.
Regardless of grips and contact point ... looks smooth and repeatable (assuming you take all of it with you while moving).Grips?
Shouldn't we pick grips based on how we want to play and priorities, rather than pick a grip and adapt? For example, if more topspin than your current max topspin is a priority, than sw (or more) might be a good choice. Since your strong eastern grip with a proper contact point is a legit ... seems backwards to me base any change for a desired contact point (more in front).
Closed racquet face on topspin FHs:
I don't think I have played long enough to close my racquet face on FHs.
Actually, I would be interesting to see a random 1000 FHs of mine at contact, and see open vs square vs closed. I know I "think" I am hitting them all square, and intending to hit them all square ... but we know how video tells the truth. I actually didn't realize pros (or anyone) closed their rf on FHs until ttw. I never really thought much about it, because I didn't have any interest in adding the closed rf variable to my swing. I assume the benefit is more topspin on a given swing path. So for me with a square rf, I would have to have more low to high than someone with a 10% closed rf. My question would be ... for a rec player which is the more difficult thing to repeat 1) racquet face angle 2) more low to high with square rf? I have no idea ... but obviously there is a pace and ts threshold where the closed rf is the right choice. Probably not for a rec flattish stroke with avg rec pace.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Dragy
Legend
You know, I’m not after closed racquet face for the sake of it. I believe for baseline groundstrokes racquet face should be basically in range from just closed through square to just open. Both in terms of “various shots” and margins for execution. Significantly closed racquet face should be used for high balls well inside the court and for some highly-energetic, powerful baseline hitting, high pace + high spin. Racquet-string features, as far as launch angle concerns, are also determinant.
In the meantime, when I get a good swing clean contact stroke, and the ball reaches the back fence with no bounce, it’s easily the racquet face to blame. Get it at least vertical, and here you go with nice topspin drive. Hence the idea of closing the racquet face from the “square to noticeably open” range to the “just c to just o”. Is the grip a most efficient tool taking into account I’m starting from strong eastern? Seems so.
P.S. feel sick and stay home today instead of my SW session(((
Good point. I'm not sure how a closed face works if you are not using poly. Probably ok but I suspect poly with an open stringbed is the best.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
So Salzy is now recycling old vids, huh? Anyway, I don't know about internet tennis coaching vids but IRL coaches do emphasise sort of what Salzy says. They try to make sure the students cover all the check points in the stroke and are achieving a nice flow BEFORE getting them to up RHS. So...close but no cigar, what Salzy brings up is by no means something that coaches aren't talking about. Still a good vid, nevertheless, and a reality check against too much emphasis on RHS.
I think even after you have mastered the stroke and acquired the ability to hit with a high RHS, the point about ball control is well worth keeping in mind. A lot of times, just being in the right position and being directionally sound is more important than hitting the cover off the ball. If anything, you may end up hitting too close to the opponent by focusing on the latter. The danger of focusing too much on the former is of course that you lose all power and your opponent gets to the ball in spite of you hitting it well wide of him. So you have to strike a balance, as with everything else in tennis. Here's a good example of ball control from yesterday's match. Look at the DTL BH winner at 6:28. Ok, I don't think Novak intended to cut it so fine but the point is he knows he has already changed the direction (as per the Wardlaw rules) and gone DTL so he just makes sure to get it close to the sideline and doesn't try to whack it. There's usually plenty of pace to use at that level and that's all Novak does.
In fact, that example is almost a textbook demonstration of what Salzenstein was referring to, of taking adequate time to complete the follow through. Of course there are times when the Big Four or other top ATP players do NOT hit it with the perfect finish but those are only when they are too pressed for time and are focusing on just making a play somehow. When they have the time, they are always in a solid, well balanced position and always hitting a full stroke, doesn't matter whether it's Fed or Nadal or Djokovic.
I noticed this when I came to US for a visit earlier this year and played with my uncle who plays 5.0 in some league (cannot tell if that is necessarily equivalent to USTA 5.0). Even if I pulled him well wide on the forehand side (or so I thought), he would pull me even wider. And he was never flailing at the ball. He would always get there well in time to be balanced and hit a proper stroke. Maybe he would reverse the finish at times or steer the ball (which pros also do a lot of times especially on running cross courts) but no flailing. He was just using all my pace to turn the tables on me. While stroke mechanics change, perhaps the fundamentals of tennis don't change THAT much.
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
Good points. Sadly the vid didnt show
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Oh, no, might be deleted already. Let me try again.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Yup, nuked. Here's one at 0:20 from the criminally abbreviated official highlights. Hits this one much harder, but again, well balanced with a nice follow through.
And he covered a good deal of ground to get there, so look at the extra effort to get there in time to set up the shot (and not just make it as we rec hacks often do).
And he covered a good deal of ground to get there, so look at the extra effort to get there in time to set up the shot (and not just make it as we rec hacks often do).
