Serve and throwing motion…what should your focus be when learning?

[mac-1210]

When learning the serve, there seems to be different concepts that are often taught to visualise it. One is thinking about it like throwing a ball or even throwing your racket and the other breaks down the elements into achieving a trophy position, then bending at the elbow to allow the racket to drop before throwing the elbow forward and racket upwards.

Using the throw analogy, when I’m throwing a ball, my entire focus is on moving the hand…I don’t think about elbow or arm movements, they come secondary to that primary focus of accelerating the hand as quickly as possible. Similarly, if I was to consider throwing my racket over the fence, my mind wouldn’t think about bending joints or moving shoulders, everything would be “driven” by the hand. Now, when I serve, I’m not sure I visualise it as my hand driving the motion like I would throwing a ball. When I was taught serving, the whole focus seemed to be get into a good trophy position, now think about the elbow bending to allow the racket to drop etc. Thinking about this concept, it feels more like the racket driving the motion.

When you serve, do you find yourself thinking about it in a similar way to if you threw a ball?

Just wondering as I was attempting to teach the basics to my wife the other day and it got me thinking how best to achieve it.

 

[Gyswandir]

 

[socallefty]

If your student played cricket or baseball, it is useful to draw the analogy with an overhead throwing motion as it accelrates the learning process. Otherwise, break the serve into its component motions and teach your student step by step.

I started off teaching one of my students the serve technique using the throwing analogy. When I asked her to throw a ball, I found out that she has no concept of an overhead throwing motion as she is Northern European and never played any sports that required it. She didn’t know the ‘proper‘ motion to throw a ball overhamd and so, it was pointless to tell her to visualize a service motion that way.

I guess there are many parts of the world where they don’t throw balls overhead. So, I’m sure that coaches in different parts of the world teach differently depending on what other sports their students play.

 

[mac-1210]

Thanks. I guess a good coach needs to understand what biomechanics their student already inherently understands and tailor the instruction. If they already understand what a throw is, this visualisation concept is the route to learning the serve but if they don’t then breaking it down into joint movements might help.

As someone who has known how to launch a ball since early years, I’m surprised how the default coaching method has always been to ignore the throw concept and start with trophy position, elbow bend, racket drop etc.

 

[Dragy]

Just a side note if you go with decomposing the motion for yourself: there’s no elbow bending to drop the racquet. Elbow stays around 90 degrees for drop phase, just similar to what you see in typical throwing motion:

 

[mac-1210]

Just a side note if you go with decomposing the motion for yourself: there’s no elbow bending to drop the racquet. Elbow stays around 90 degrees for drop phase, just similar to what you see in typical throwing motion

Good point. From what I understand from Tom Allsop's breakdown on TPA tennis is that at higher level, the arm stays at 90 degrees to allow the shoulder to come through. Beginners are ok to bend past 90 to ensure they bring the racket behind the head to initiate the proper loop. This will result in less power generated from the shoulder.

He does a good discussion with Jeff Salzenstein about the racket being seen to "break the plane" for beginners (ie if you are looking at a beginner serve face on, the racket can be seen behind the head and towards the court), which is ok until you want to advance and add power from the shoulder.

 

[Dragy]

Good point. From what I understand from Tom Allsop's breakdown on TPA tennis is that at higher level, the arm stays at 90 degrees to allow the shoulder to come through. Beginners are ok to bend past 90 to ensure they bring the racket behind the head to initiate the proper loop. This will result in less power generated from the shoulder.

He does a good discussion with Jeff Salzenstein about the racket being seen to "break the plane" for beginners (ie if you are looking at a beginner serve face on, the racket can be seen behind the head and towards the court), which is ok until you want to advance and add power from the shoulder.

This might make sense as it kinda shifts tension point from wrist - and some players tend to lock the wrist when they focus on racquet head path... So they learn to not tighten the wrist first, and then moving to keeping more or less 90 deg elbow - they now don't withstand the wrist bending to allow the racquet to trail the hand fully as they pull up from the "drop".

But the part about putting the racquet behind the head - why you need it? Why you need to ensure it? You need to let racquet head drop down while you push shoulder and elbow up - that's true. Best servers get there "over the biceps" rather than behind the head (go single frame through it):

 

[mac-1210]

But the part about putting the racquet behind the head - why you need it? Why you need to ensure it? You need to let racquet head drop down while you push shoulder and elbow up - that's true. Best servers get there "over the biceps" rather than behind the head (go single frame through it):

Agree - you are getting to the nub of my question about teaching the serve through throwing (which is more similar to what Federer is demonstrating) versus breaking down individual movements.

From what I understand, Tom basically says it allows a beginner to get to grips with the racket drop from the trophy position. I've also definitely had coaches say that from the trophy position, you should bend the elbow to allow the racket to drop. Almost another way of describing the much hated "party hat" concept...high level players don't necessarily knock a party hat off but it's a concept for beginners to understand the basics.

Here is the screengrab:

 

[Dragy]

Agree - you are getting to the nub of my question about teaching the serve through throwing (which is more similar to what Federer is demonstrating) versus breaking down individual movements.

From what I understand, Tom basically says it allows a beginner to get to grips with the racket drop from the trophy position. I've also definitely had coaches say that from the trophy position, you should bend the elbow to allow the racket to drop. Almost another way of describing the much hated "party hat" concept...high level players don't necessarily knock a party hat off but it's a concept for beginners to understand the basics.

Here is the screengrab:

Agree, getting comfortable with presence of drop and pulling up from drop is worth it. Just pointing out that "bringing the racquet behind the head" isn't a checkpoint for "proper loop". It may be a learning tool - well, likely. Same for "kicking off party hat" - where BTW racquet head passes over the head, not exactly dropping behind. But we can be argueing semantics here, not needed

 

[Slicehand]

Dont work on anything until you can toss a ball consistently good, it will save you a lot of frustration

 

[PKorda]

Just a side note if you go with decomposing the motion for yourself: there’s no elbow bending to drop the racquet. Elbow stays around 90 degrees for drop phase, just similar to what you see in typical throwing motion:

Are you saying focus more on dropping the shoulder to get the racket drop or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Pumpkin]

Just start off from the racquet drop position, toss the ball and serve.

 

[Dragy]

Are you saying focus more on dropping the shoulder to get the racket drop or am I misunderstanding?

Focus on nothing but relaxation and whipping it, I guess. But biomechanically - external shoulder rotation and wrist flexion+radial deviation. Passive motions, caused by legs pushing, torso rotating, shoulder+elbow going up be around

 

[nyta2]

Just wondering as I was attempting to teach the basics to my wife the other day and it got me thinking how best to achieve it.

teaching my kids to throw, i used "point listen throw"... hide the elbow behind the body/head, point to the target, keep arm 90 degrees in a "listen", then rotate and throw
when teaching my daughter to serve, i taught her to throw a football,... to get it to spiral you have to pronate... then we threw "hail marys" to each other.

 

[nyta2]

Dont work on anything until you can toss a ball consistently good, it will save you a lot of frustration

i do the opposite, teach them to throw, then spend 90% of time practicing the toss and getting to trophy (because it's a different feel when just doing the toss without the load)

 

[mental midget]

relaxation and a smooth 'kinetic chain' i suppose, but the serve is much more complex in that for a beginner, you've got the whole continental grip/pronation thing to get comfy with first.

once you do, though, i always felt like both were, and apologies in advance...kind of intuitive? i mean, most guys with a good arm that i grew up with weren't really taught any different how to throw, and playing tennis, we all took the same lessons and some of us got it/maybe had better natural timing etc...or didn't.

but just to steer back on topic, i guess they call it the 'archer's bow,' leading with the hip and sort of snapping forward/uncoiling from there...to me that's the biggest thing to 'get' for trying to get the most out of your serve. i see so many players with like, crazy knee bends, weird elbow positions...but once you figure that out you should be able to serve at like 85-90% of your max without really 'trying very hard,' really, and a super easy motion. michael stich had a great motion, no extreme anything, just kinda leaned in a bit, not even much knee bend...flowy power.

 

[Dragy]

relaxation and a smooth 'kinetic chain' i suppose, but the serve is much more complex in that for a beginner, you've got the whole continental grip/pronation thing to get comfy with first.

once you do, though, i always felt like both were, and apologies in advance...kind of intuitive? i mean, most guys with a good arm that i grew up with weren't really taught any different how to throw, and playing tennis, we all took the same lessons and some of us got it/maybe had better natural timing etc...or didn't.

but just to steer back on topic, i guess they call it the 'archer's bow,' leading with the hip and sort of snapping forward/uncoiling from there...to me that's the biggest thing to 'get' for trying to get the most out of your serve. i see so many players with like, crazy knee bends, weird elbow positions...but once you figure that out you should be able to serve at like 85-90% of your max without really 'trying very hard,' really, and a super easy motion. michael stich had a great motion, no extreme anything, just kinda leaned in a bit, not even much knee bend...flowy power.

Your reply made me go back to the OP and try to figure out what he is actually after here. Is it power in serve or what?

I agree that best results go without trying hard, particularly with upper body, arm and hand sensation should not be forced or tight. Deeper knee bent and subsequent leg drive, if done properly, boosts RHS significantly. But the thing is, if I’m not athletic enough to repeatedly use legs (playing in low stance, jumping high a lot like in BB or VB, etc.), deep bend will be unnatural and “manual control” thing, unreliable through long match. So probably better do just basic natural swing with only minimal required loading?

 

[pencilcheck]

When learning the serve, there seems to be different concepts that are often taught to visualise it. One is thinking about it like throwing a ball or even throwing your racket and the other breaks down the elements into achieving a trophy position, then bending at the elbow to allow the racket to drop before throwing the elbow forward and racket upwards.

Using the throw analogy, when I’m throwing a ball, my entire focus is on moving the hand…I don’t think about elbow or arm movements, they come secondary to that primary focus of accelerating the hand as quickly as possible. Similarly, if I was to consider throwing my racket over the fence, my mind wouldn’t think about bending joints or moving shoulders, everything would be “driven” by the hand. Now, when I serve, I’m not sure I visualise it as my hand driving the motion like I would throwing a ball. When I was taught serving, the whole focus seemed to be get into a good trophy position, now think about the elbow bending to allow the racket to drop etc. Thinking about this concept, it feels more like the racket driving the motion.

When you serve, do you find yourself thinking about it in a similar way to if you threw a ball?

Just wondering as I was attempting to teach the basics to my wife the other day and it got me thinking how best to achieve it.

it is hard to say this without making it look like i'm bashing them but the truth is that throwing analogy is for kids who are usually under age 10. For adults, the right analogy is not throwing because throwing doesn't work that way like you mentioned. A better analogy is to really really get down to the details because serve motions is not remotely close to a throwing motion.

It is very hard to describe in words, have to really teach in person to demonstrate what that is but my tipbits for you is to look at what nadal is doing and learn whatever you can from it.

If you want to teach your wife, don't scare her with continental grip, or throwing motion, she is probably not going to get it, i'm 99% confident that most of the time people try to force a certain way to teach and scare most recreational people away. The wise thing is to let them be, tweak a little to just make the ball over the net and that's it! Make sure to make it fun, i would add some small games to challenge her to do more of the idea of serve instead of forcing her to do a specific motion.

For instance, I would teach her to do an underhand serve, or i would teach her to do the pusher stuff without throwing ball, etc. I wouldn't correct her grip, just let her do whatever she wants.

 

[Dragy]

Well yeah, dumb but not unexpected, OP got me with the massive text and I failed to notice the “basics to my wife” part…

The biggest question will be why she is learning and practicing it:
- is she solid with ground game and wants to catch up with the serve?
- is she enjoying the process of learning complex athletic moves?
- does she dream about serving like Venus (or Kyrgios, for instance?)
- does she want a reliable overhead serve for social matches or rec competition?
- is she interested in spending some time with you, or making you feel important (in a good way, no negatives intended)?

Decide on these, and choose appropriate way for her to be happy with the process and result - then you’ll succeed with whatever you want to achieve with her