Serve throwing motion - up or forward?

[Better_Call_Raul]

How would we know that a DIY technique works? vs knowing that ATP techniques are the best, have been analyzed and can be viewed in a minute.

I get better results after incorporating TE. I was serving with roughly a neutral spine and adding TE gives me more RHS.
I believe in TE. But it is also important to understand what can be achieved without TE, as many club players, for various reasons, will not or cannot incorporate TE.

This is Brent Abel. National Hard Court Senior champion. A high-level player.
He seems to be serving with a roughly neutral spine. Little to no TE. It also appears that "leading elbow" is not achieved.
Elbow does not even get parallel to the hand, which I think is a great initial goal for club players. Not clear how much of this elbow position failure is due to lack of TE.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Wait, you guys did "what comes naturally to you" and hoped to be "naturally talented"? And you imagine everyone is this lazy and arrogant? Tennis is actually second nature (that means you have to learn it).

Only one guy, so far!

For posters who claim serving is not natural, what's the most natural thing people do? How about breathing? Everyone starts to breath the second they are born.
Do you know 80% of the people breath incorrectly? Numerous scientific studies have shown that the vast majority of people breath less than optimally - too shallow and fast. Just because folks don't breath the right way and maximize the quality of health, does not mean breathing is not natural. It's just insane to go around and say something is not natural because many people don't do as well as it could be done.

I don't think that is the argument that was being made, but maybe I missed something?

Do you believe there is such a thing as the "high level" serve? A serve that exhibits certain fundamentals, more or less in accordance with the below document.

An 8-Stage Model for Evaluating the Tennis Serve: Implications for Performance Enhancement and Injury Prevention

The tennis serve is a complex stroke characterized by a series of segmental rotations involving the entire kinetic chain. Many overhead athletes use a basic 6-stage throwing model; however, the tennis serve does provide some differences.To support the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Because it is that particular level of serve that is considered "unnatural" when these discussions arise, and not the various catastrophes frequently seen around the local club. Serves that look like those don't normally just "fall out of the sky". You've been around a while, so I find your interpretation very strange.

I can of cause only speak for my self. serve is my biggest weapon and in a clinic 2 weeks ago players commented on my serve telling me it looks so simple and so natural. I have no idea about all that serve biomechanic, to me its just a very natural motion.

Right, and I understand your POV since I happen to agree, but doesn't the above just make my case? You were an outlier at the clinic, so much so that people actually commented on your serve. For them it doesn't work the same way it works for you. Also, there are various other factors to consider when it comes to what feels natural to a person, like a previous sporting background that developed good throwing mechanics. I also agree that thinking about too many technical terms isn't the best way to go about improving one's own serve. But that is a different discussion!

 

[Digital Atheist]

I get better results after incorporating TE. I was serving with roughly a neutral spine and adding TE gives me more RHS.
I believe in TE. But it is also important to understand what can be achieved without TE, as many club players, for various reasons, will not or cannot incorporate TE.

So what did you think about or "visualise" in order to help make this extra TE happen?

 

[AnyPUG]

I don't think that is the argument that was being made, but maybe I missed something?

Do you believe there is such a thing as the "high level" serve? A serve that exhibits certain fundamentals, more or less in accordance with the below document.

An 8-Stage Model for Evaluating the Tennis Serve: Implications for Performance Enhancement and Injury Prevention

The tennis serve is a complex stroke characterized by a series of segmental rotations involving the entire kinetic chain. Many overhead athletes use a basic 6-stage throwing model; however, the tennis serve does provide some differences.To support the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Because it is that particular level of serve that is considered "unnatural" when these discussions arise, and not the various catastrophes frequently seen around the local club. Serves that look like those don't normally just "fall out of the sky". You've been around a while, so I find your interpretation very strange.

imo, serve of any quality is natural. The distinction between high level and non high level is not binary and not created by a sudden and unnatural external intervention. The serve quality falls on a spectrum and progressive increase in the quality of serve is a natural phenomenon as a result of practice and ability. Why should we consider it unnatural just because it requires more ability and practice?
Even pro quality serve is not rare - in larger tennis countries, many thousands of players of all ages hit as good a serve as folks on the atp tour. (just serve alone does not take anyone to top 200 in the world).

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

So what did you think about or "visualise" in order to help make this extra TE happen?

I thought about pointing my chest more upwards towards the sky. Taking care to bend more from the thoracic spine and not from the lumbar (lower) spine. And my top serve speed went up from 85 mph to 90 mph.

Returners immediately noticed and asked, "what did you do to your serve?". I told them to bend more from the thoracic spine. Or mid-back. But most just gave me a confused look.

Most of them seem to get the "shoulder over shoulder" seesaw motion tip. But they don't seem to get TE.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Are you serious when you say "learn what the ATP players do and tune down to our limitations"? Do you realize it takes years(a lot of time) and really high level expert coaching( a lot of money) to learn what pro players do? I don't think anyone can learn what pro players do by watching high speed videos frame by frame. It's a motor skill that needs to be practiced to understand and later on learn.
Bringing up pro level technique at every breath is a non starter for rec level practitioners, may be it works for keyboard warriors. Everyone requires teaching down at the current level to be of any value.
Got to cross the bridge when we come to it.

First, everyone should learn what is true about the pro stroke techniques as references. I did not mean perform them. Know what is being done in ATP high level strokes.

How many years have you been interested in improving your forehand?

People do not like spending time in doing things that they are not familiar with. Spend three hours looking at ATP forehands in clear high speed videos. Relax and try not to see sub-motions (especially if you feel irritated with this suggestion). List everything that you notice.

Try especially not to notice how the uppermost body moves (at the height of the shoulders). Don't notice the angle that it turns back and then forward. (Rublev was said to hit out on every forehand ball, so do not look at Rublev forehands.)

Don't notice that the line between the 2 shoulders (the uppermost body) and the line between the 2 hips do not move together, the trunk twists and untwists.

Relax and do that for three hours. Try not to believe things about what you see.

Don't try to do what you see because it may stress your spine or something else.

Don't form beliefs yet, you're an observer............

 

[Chas Tennis]

I get better results after incorporating TE. I was serving with roughly a neutral spine and adding TE gives me more RHS.
I believe in TE. But it is also important to understand what can be achieved without TE, as many club players, for various reasons, will not or cannot incorporate TE.

This is Brent Abel. National Hard Court Senior champion. A high-level player.
He seems to be serving with a roughly neutral spine. Little to no TE. It also appears that "leading elbow" is not achieved.
Elbow does not even get parallel to the hand, which I think is a great initial goal for club players. Not clear how much of this elbow position failure is due to lack of TE.

Good observation and GIF display.

I'd expect that most old players lack spinal flexibility. Wouldn't you?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

I'd expect that most old players lack spinal flexibility. Wouldn't you?

Brent is not the typical senior player. He is a National Champion and he watches his diet carefully. He appears to be very fit. And unless he has some spinal issue I don't know about I am sure he is capable of at least a few degrees of TE. I suspect that, for some reason he chooses not to employ it. Although I have not examined his match footage.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Brent is not the typical senior player. He is a National Champion and he watches his diet carefully. He appears to be very fit. And unless he has some spinal issue I don't know about I am sure he is capable of at least a few degrees of TE. I suspect that, for some reason he chooses not to employ it. Although I have not examined his match footage.

Post some very slow GIFs of ATP servers - from the same camera angles - next to very slow GIFs of older elite players like Brent.

 

[Happi]

xxx

 

[AnyPUG]

First, everyone should learn what is true about the pro stroke techniques as references. I did not mean perform them. Know what is being done in ATP high level strokes.

imo, it's a huge time and money barrier to really know the truth about complete pro technique. Learning happens in progressions and with pre-requisites. It's not feasible to keep learning the next level things unless we really learn what comes prior. After certain point, unless someone has personal experience with a few first level sub-motions, it's not possible to learn (not practice, just know) about the next level sub-motions.
I know some people think they know all about high level technique though they may not be able to do it themselves, but in reality they really don't know.

How many years have you been interested in improving your forehand?

People do not like spending time in doing things that they are not familiar with. Spend three hours looking at ATP forehands in clear high speed videos. Relax and try not to see sub-motions (especially if you feel irritated with this suggestion). List everything that you notice.

Try especially not to notice how the uppermost body moves (at the height of the shoulders). Don't notice the angle that it turns back and then forward. (Rublev was said to hit out on every forehand ball, so do not look at Rublev forehands.)

Don't notice that the line between the 2 shoulders (the uppermost body) and the line between the 2 hips do not move together, the trunk twists and untwists.

Relax and do that for three hours. Try not to believe things about what you see.

Don't try to do what you see because it may stress your spine or something else.

Don't form beliefs yet, you're an observer............

If you take your example shoulder separation - what you see in high speed video is the outcome. What you won't know is how it's achieved. Multiple joints can be used to create shoulder separation. Is it via trunk? Is it via upper body? Is it by pulling the right shoulder and pushing the left? Is it a combination of all?

Another example, forehand lag - it should be simple to understand because only one joint is involved. But is it really that simple? Is it actively forced or does it happen because of inertia created by other joints? Is it a combination of both? Nobody knows and you can't tell by looking at video. Though the lag looks the same in isolation irrespective of the method employed to create it, the actual outcome on the quality of the shot depends entirely on how it's created. In that respect, watching the video is totally useless.

There have been attempts to understand the high level technique using ultra-short echo time MRI, ultra sound, optical and 3d imaging. It's still in very early stages and not clear when the findings will come out.
The claim that you can really know the truth about motor skills by just observation of videos in a 2D frame of reference is totally naive (and incorrect). Let's not pretend anyone can learn the true nature of effort it takes to create world class performances by just watching high speed video frames.

 

[Chas Tennis]

imo, it's a huge time and money barrier to really know the truth about complete pro technique. Learning happens in progressions and with pre-requisites. It's not feasible to keep learning the next level things unless we really learn what comes prior. After certain point, unless someone has personal experience with a few first level sub-motions, it's not possible to learn (not practice, just know) about the next level sub-motions.
I know some people think they know all about high level technique though they may not be able to do it themselves, but in reality they really don't know.



If you take your example shoulder separation - what you see in high speed video is the outcome. What you won't know is how it's achieved. Multiple joints can be used to create shoulder separation. Is it via trunk? Is it via upper body? Is it by pulling the right shoulder and pushing the left? Is it a combination of all?

Another example, forehand lag - it should be simple to understand because only one joint is involved. But is it really that simple? Is it actively forced or does it happen because of inertia created by other joints? Is it a combination of both? Nobody knows and you can't tell by looking at video. Though the lag looks the same in isolation irrespective of the method employed to create it, the actual outcome on the quality of the shot depends entirely on how it's created. In that respect, watching the video is totally useless.

There have been attempts to understand the high level technique using ultra-short echo time MRI, ultra sound, optical and 3d imaging. It's still in very early stages and not clear when the findings will come out.
The claim that you can really know the truth about motor skills by just observation of videos in a 2D frame of reference is totally naive (and incorrect). Let's not pretend anyone can learn the true nature of effort it takes to create world class performances by just watching high speed video frames.

Separation. Stand up and extend your arms at shoulder level. Rotated back and forth gently. The line between the 2 shoulders and the line between the 2 hips moves with separate timing, back and forth. Twist, untwist... Very gradually put some 'spring' into your back and forth motion as you add a little of the stretch shorten cycle. Gentle on your spine.

Both Uppermost Body Turn (using Separation) + Shoulder Joint Motion -- contribute to racket head speed.

If you have trained yourself to aim the ball with little separation and mostly using only your shoulder joint, you have to not use your shoulder joint early in your forward swing and re-learn how to aim in azimuth. That delayed shoulder joint use has to be retrained. (Observe players at your club for too much early shoulder joint motion and not enough separation. )

Once you have seen separation being done as a sub-motion in the ATP forehands, you are certain of a high level sub-motion.

The above is simplified to focus on uppermost body turn, probably the most important sub-motion for racket head speed on drives.

I posted on more details - sub-motion by sub-motion - and identified the sub-motions in videos.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a lot of things I have not studied or even know of. I know many things that are true about complex tennis strokes by simply observing high speed videos showing object positions. I have pointed out many false things that are claimed about tennis strokes, proved false, simply by observations in videos. If someone confidently states false things about tennis strokes, best to keep looking elsewhere.

If you can find an instructor that knows the high level techniques and can teach you, that is best.

There are estimated roughly 80,000,000 tennis players worldwide. You have to consider how many truly knowledgeable instructors are available for players, say, outside the top 100,000 players in the world. Hourly cost of instruction?

Watch ATP forehand drives for 3 hours as in post #106..................

 

[Chas Tennis]

You are onto something here, let me try to explain: I come from a bacckground of high level sport (pro level), but came late to tennis. I decided to learn to play tennis and got coaching from the first hour I played tennis. The first few years I only played with coaching, and got a very good technical foundation, but one thing was missing and that was the serve. I have a very good throwing mechanic (used to play handball as a kid), so it was extremly frustrating that I could not work out the serve. I got coaching for years (very good coaches too) but never got the serve just right. Studied youtube videos, and purchased curses by Jeff S, TTT, FYB and so on, nothing seem to work. I know all the right things to do, but my serve kept being a liability.

Then one day I appoached one of the best coaches in my country, and asked him to work with me on my serve. We talked and he asked me about my previous sport (I was a volleyball player) and asked me how did I serve in Volleyball. I showed him my flat topspin volleyball serve (not a jump serve), and he said: looks good lets work from there. He told me to forget everything I learned about the tennis serve and just do a volleyball serve. This might be the best moment in my tennis journey, as suddenly everything clicked. My old muscle memeory came back, and I was serving like never before. In 20 minutes this coach taught me how to serve, amazing moment.

I have worked on with that approach, and my serve after having been my weakest shot is now my strongest shot. I have checked slow motion videos of my serve, and as far as I can see, I come up with my elbow, racquet on edge, pronation and all the other good stuff. But I never think about any of these things, they just happens natural as part of a good throwing motion.

A volleyball serve is not far from a throwing motion, and a throwing motion should be a natural motion for most players.

So when players comment on my serve, I tell them that I do not have a tennis serve but a volleyball serve.

My conclusion is that for me the serve became a natural motion when I forgot about all the techical stuff I was taught over the years, and just did a simple throwing motion.

Hope this story might help some players who struggle with the serve, like I did for years.

Were you able to identify what you changed in high speed videos?

 

[Digital Atheist]

The distinction between high level and non high level is not binary

There is actually a certain use case where it really is; either you have a high level serve, or you don't. You may disagree with people that take that position, but they are certainly allowed to do so. As you can see from the document I linked in my previous post, one of the most common use cases for that approach is in teaching.

However, I am NOT advocating for people to sit for hours on end studying slow motion video footage of ATP strokes. That might be a bit much!

 

[AnyPUG]

There is actually a certain use case where it really is; either you have a high level serve, or you don't. You may disagree with people that take that position, but they are certainly allowed to do so. As you can see from the document I linked in my previous post, one of the most common use cases for that approach is in teaching.

However, I am NOT advocating for people to sit for hours on end studying slow motion video footage of ATP strokes. That might be a bit much!

imo, people who take that position are looking at things from the proverbial 36000 feet high. I'm sure you will agree that the development from non high level to high level is not sudden and does not follow an on-off switch pattern. My contention is that the gradual nature of things and the dynamic back and forth between non high level and high level is not a binary situation. I do believe that there are a whole lot more players who go back and forth than guys who stay at the top for longer periods of time (I'm not talking about over the hill adult rec players).

 

[Digital Atheist]

imo, people who take that position are looking at things from the proverbial 36000 feet high.

I disagree, and I pointed out the most obvious and relevant use case where there is an obvious benefit.

I'm sure you will agree that the development from non high level to high level is not sudden and does not follow an on-off switch pattern. My contention is that the gradual nature of things and the dynamic back and forth between non high level and high level is not a binary situation.

You seem to accept the existence of the high level serve (meaning there are some identifiable characteristics). Whether you think that makes it binary or not doesn't even matter for the purpose of analysis and improvement, so let me ask you this since I am curious:
1. Have you ever recorded your own serve?
2. If so, have you then compared it to a high level (ATP) serve, or at least analysed it to identify obvious issues that need work?

 

[AnyPUG]

I disagree, and I pointed out the most obvious and relevant use case where there is an obvious benefit.


You seem to accept the existence of the high level serve (meaning there are some identifiable characteristics). Whether you think that makes it binary or not doesn't even matter for the purpose of analysis and improvement, so let me ask you this since I am curious:
1. Have you ever recorded your own serve?
2. If so, have you then compared it to a high level (ATP) serve, or at least analysed it to identify obvious issues that need work?

imo, the exchange here has become very tangential. I'll let you have the final word if you wish.

 

[Digital Atheist]

imo, the exchange here has become very tangential. I'll let you have the final word if you wish.

You are too kind
It is difficult to have any kind of serious conversation when every question asked (and there were several) is simply ignored. I don't consider that to be acting in good faith, and such is my final word!

 

[AnyPUG]

You are too kind
It is difficult to have any kind of serious conversation when every question asked (and there were several) is simply ignored. I don't consider that to be acting in good faith, and such is my final word!

I thought we didn't have a common frame of reference to have a reasonable dialogue. But it turns out that I have a sinister design according to you. They say choose your friends wisely. I guess we could also say choose your enemies wisely.

 

[Digital Atheist]

imo, the exchange here has become very tangential. I'll let you have the final word if you wish.