Serve - Help with elbow position and racket drop

[Giovanni2011]

Hello guys,

I am new to this forum and would really appreciate some help regarding my serve, specifically the backswing. I am a self thought player and one of the things I've got stuck with since I was a kid s is my serve. Being a 4.0 player, generally my ground strokes and volleys are much better than my serve. When I play matches I am breaking opponent's serving games easier and more frequently than I win my own service games. I tend to make too many double faults and I lose matches because of it. I have days when I can serve like a pro and my entire game gets elevated to another level. The very next day, I literally can't place the ball in the service field. During the match, my serving motion gets stiff, I start double faulting too much, changing, and experimenting with the motion while just trying to keep the ball in the field. This typically leads to a disaster. It's been very frustrating.

The biggest challenge for me is the position of my elbow during the backswing. I can't keep my elbow and the upper arm separated from the body and elevated during the backswing motion prior to racket drop (backscratch). The shoulders are not in the same line, the elbow stays too low from where I can't execute a proper racket drop, needed to impart spin on the serve. As a result, my backswing is very inconsistent, it is not fluid, without the proper racket drop, and with hitch. I feel that I cannot impart spin properly because of it. I can hit the first serve hard (more less muscling a tennis ball), but I do not have confidence in the second serve. I have trouble to consistently hit second serve no matter how slow or fast I want it to be.

However, when I shadow my serving motion, everything looks great and easy. But when I try to hit the ball and repeat the same exact shadowing motion immediately after the elbow drops down. The bad motion is deeply engraved in my brain and muscle memory and it appears very difficult to correct it. I've been trying to correct this for a long period now with many different drills, but with no success.

I would really appreciate any inputs, comments, and suggestions on what needs to be fixed and the best way to do it. I know that there are other elements that need to be fixed, such as toss placement, feet, timing, etc. Perhaps, some of that leads to the elbow position issues!? I am open to any feedback. At this point, I just want to keep the ball in play and eliminate double faults.

Here is the video of me serving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAN0yjWlCvY&feature=player_profilepage

Many thanks in advance.

 

[larry10s]

take a sock or towel
put a tennis ball at the end of the sock(knee high type)
tie a knot at tnd of towel
idea is to have a weighted end
then try to serve in one continuous motion so the knot doesnt fall anf hit you

when you can do that you in a smooth motion that eliminates the hitch
you will notice the towel/sock will travel in a figure 8 pattern

you can then try some figure 8s with a racquet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaS-qtQWym4&feature=related

once you get the feel of that
turn toward the fence so you are not "serving "into the box

and try to swing a few figure 8s then toss the ball and maintain the rhythm


the idea is you want to eliminate your puase or hitch that by itself may solve the probles

 

[only4theweak187]

second serves remember to hit up on the ball to get net clearance and as much spin as possible...

that should help with double faulting



As far as first serve, spend a couple hundred balls practicing PLACEMENT of serve, at say about 50-75% speed.

Placement precision in the box is a good weapon and will help once you start to get more pace

 

[Ajtat411]

One thing I notice in your video is that when you "shadow" swing, you pull your head/eyes down and look into the court just before you would be hitting the ball, if a ball were there.

When shadow swinging, you want to keep your eye's up and head where it would be if you were really serving, volleying, swinging. This is a general tip, but could be contributing to your disconnect from shadow swing to actual swing.

Also, you want to fully extend your rackethead toward the back of the fence as far as you can reach during the takeback. It will feel unnatural at the beginning but that is the feeling that you want with every takeback during the serve. This will ensure that your elbow is away from your body during your swing. (i.e. you arm will be relatively straight to takeback)

Lastly, don't let the your ball toss dictate your "natural" service motion. This can cause you to pause momentarily and bring your swing/elbow crashing into your body. Try practicing without a ball to begin with and focus on visualizing your elbow position and recognizing where it is throughout your swing.

Stay relaxed, focus on the swing, not results, practice plenty and you should fine. It may take a while to get to where you want though depending on how dedicated you are to it, but stick with it and you will have an effortless and relaxed serve.

What Larry indicated will help also.

A big factor is that you want your body parts to be "independent" on your swing. Don't let any other part of your body dictate where the other goes. Master your body parts independently and then bring them together to form your motion.

 

[LeeD]

Watched 6 serves. Good motion, live arm, very casual. Low elbow is fine, see DrIvoKarlovic, Lawman, DJ.
Double faults often result in your mind. You need to differentiate first serves from second serves. First serve, pound it for a winner, or spin it to get a weak return. Second serve, swing faster, add more topspin, slow ball 40 mph, arc it in.

 

[Ajtat411]

It sounds like he want's a Federer/Sampras style serve, not DJ or Karlovic. Elbow needs to be further away from the body for that to happen or at least start the elbow further away from the body.

It's true, as long as you have a loose arm and a good continuous motion, it doesn't matter what you serve motion looks like. But Federer/Sampras are not bad examples to model after.

 

[LeeD]

I'm pretty sure it's better to have a lower hitting side elbow than tossing side elbow. Lower hitting side shoulder than tossing side shoulder too.
Those guys who have a balanced level elbow need to muscle and jerk their serves, so it's prone to injury.

 

[larry10s]

low elbow to line of shoulders is a bad thing
show me (link) where thats not true

 

[chico9166]

I'm pretty sure it's better to have a lower hitting side elbow than tossing side elbow. Lower hitting side shoulder than tossing side shoulder too.
Those guys who have a balanced level elbow need to muscle and jerk their serves, so it's prone to injury.

Read Larry's post. He's right. The angle of the upper arm/humerus needs to be at least 80 degrees to the torso.

 

[LeeD]

Just what is "a bad thing". DrIvo, Sampras, DJ, LawMan, all have elbows way lower than the line of the shoulders, and they hit OK serves.
Nadal holds his elbow higher, as did Navritilova, had OK serves.
Personal style, low or in line. But EVERY good serves has hitting elbow LOWER than tossing elbow at trophy.

 

[LeeD]

..and this "continuous motion" theory is bunk...
Tons of ATP players hesitate after tossing, the motion STOPS, then continues on.
Personal preference. We don't all need to serve like PanchoGonzalez. Some of us like the hesitation to load up, some use continuous motion to keep kinetic energy. It's the player's choice, there is NO bad, no right, no wrong as far as continous motion.

 

[chico9166]

Just what is "a bad thing". DrIvo, Sampras, DJ, LawMan, all have elbows way lower than the line of the shoulders, and they hit OK serves.
Nadal holds his elbow higher, as did Navritilova, had OK serves.
Personal style, low or in line. But EVERY good serves has hitting elbow LOWER than tossing elbow at trophy.

The tossing elbow is higher than the hitting elbow, because the body is tilted, ok? It's a bit of an illusion. Again, look at the angle of the upper arm to torso. It doesn't have to be a perfect right angle, but less than 80 degrees is not ideal. The OP is way off in this regard, and his concern is legitimate. This is not a good thing. Check that, it is a "bad thing", as is your advice not to worry about it.

 

[chico9166]

BTW, the sock drill would be a good exercise for the OP.

 

[larry10s]

..and this "continuous motion" theory is bunk...
Tons of ATP players hesitate after tossing, the motion STOPS, then continues on.
Personal preference. We don't all need to serve like PanchoGonzalez. Some of us like the hesitation to load up, some use continuous motion to keep kinetic energy. It's the player's choice, there is NO bad, no right, no wrong as far as continous motion.

i wont debate the continuous vs pause issue in general with you
BUT
for this player based on video provided its when he pauses (poses) in trophy he brimgs his elbow down.
if he didnt pose it might be a fix that he wouldnt have to conciously work so hard to fix
SO for him continuous might be better

 

[Giovanni2011]

I believe that I would benefit greatly if could separate my upper arm from torso. As somebody indicated, I tend to pause in the "trophy" position and tuck my elbow almost behind the scapula. It feels very awkward and unnatural to execute a proper racket drop from that position in a continuous motion.

Here is Karlovic's serve, elbow is low; however he still clearly keeps his upper arm separated from his torso:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0RbHNOCaws

Djokovic's upper arm separation is not as emphasized as it is among most of the other pro players, but he still manages to bring his elbow up while dropping the racket head. I am not exactly sure, but perhaps that was something that Martin wanted to correct with him. There is talk on that topic here (similar problem that I have):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hqLXc-8Lo


As far as the pause goes, I wouldn't mind a little hitch at the trophy position as long as I can develop the separation between the upper arm and torso. There are players with slight trophy pause and there are players who do not have pause at all. I personally think that both work, however racket acceleration must be achieved easier with less muscle stress and effort if the motion is uninterrupted. That's why I think more of the continuous motion is expressed in woman tennis.

Thank you all for great suggestions. I've been practicing with a trash bag filled with 2 tennis balls at the bottom. Everything works great with it, so it does when I have a racket in my hand as long as I don't have to hit the ball. But as soon as I attempt to hit the ball the hitting arm pauses and I tuck my elbow to my torso.

I liked the comment to try to extend my hitting arm toward the back fence on the take back. I tried that yesterday and I think it helped me. I don't know if position of the elbow was any better, I would need to record myself to see it again, but it felt better and it helped me to focus on that separation.

Good observation on my head and eye direction during the shadow serve, I need to make sure I keep my head up when doing it.

When I make some progress I'll post the video again.

 

[Giovanni2011]

Here are the extracted frames from the original video I posted. I am shadowing the serve in the left column without hitting the ball and I am hitting the ball in the right column. The frame increments between the two serves are not necessarily the same, but very close. I rather wanted to align the frames such that the tossing arm between the two serving motions is kept in the same position so that I can compare to position of the hitting arm with respect to the tossing arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viZ_ngOIhdk

 

[chico9166]

Geo,

It is irrelevant whether you ultimately have a continuous motion thru the trophy position or whether there is a slight pause at it. The underlying issue, is that the arm has to be elevated to a certain level. (this 80-90 degree benchmark) In your "real" serve, the hitting arm quits. This is where the sock drill comes into play. It forces you to keep lifting/abducting the hitting arm structure.

As a side note. As you start to lift your arm, never, ever, turn your palm up. This will force the elbow down, and in.