Serve Motion Problems/Elbow

[Deleted member 761442]

Hi All,

I am a club-level player with a reasonable serve for club level play (nowhere near as good as some of the videos here though!) but I am having a few problems getting it to look 'correct', in particular the "trophy pose" and keeping my elbow up. I have watched many youtube videos, in particular Jeff Salzenstein and "elbowing the enemy" but nothing is really working. Wondering if anyone here can give me tips to get this fixed?!

During the service motion, my elbow seems to be tucked-in at the trophy position, right before the racket drop. I have tried every method of correcting this and I think I can 'mime' the correct motion without a ball, but the moment I attempt this on a court with a ball, although it feels like I'm doing the right thing, my phone footage shows there is barely any change.

Pictures of what I'm trying to describe (apologies for the quality!):

Any tips to fix this?

Thanks.

 

[FRV]

Maybe try starting from square one? Here is a progression video that @SystemicAnomaly suggested to me awhile ago.

Racket head may be a bit too far from you as suggested previously. Also, your racket face orientation is a little bit off. Notice that I've been saying things like "a bit" or "a little bit". You are really not too far off with your serve issues but they definitely could be improved upon. Take a look at the following serve progression. Pay close attention to the parts where the coach here talks about the "salute" and the "comb your hair" motion.

 

[FRV]

Personally, I would first try doing my regular serve and deliberately untucking my elbow during the trophy pose before hitting the ball if I were you. Eventually, you will be able to go straight into the untucked elbow trophy position as you gain spatial awareness and muscle memory.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You have some misconception about the biomechanics of the serve and how it works. Even the experts had misconceptions until things began to turn around after publications on the serve and ISR, starting about 1995. Before 1995, the tennis experts could not explain the biomechanics of the tennis serve. Study the biomechanics of the serve including internal shoulder rotation (ISR). Google every term that you don't understand........

Get a can of soup and hold it in your hand. Get in the Trophy Position as in your serve pictures. Move your shoulder around with relaxed shoulder muscles that connect to your upper arm. What happens to your upper arm as you move around - accelerate the shoulder mass - in different directions?

Now repeat the same experiment with your arm held as in done in a high level serve. Relax the muscles that are to be stretched but not the muscles that orient the upper arm - straight out from shoulder joint and muscle that hold a 90 d. elbow bend.

I've posted many times on ISR with pictures and videos.

It also might be instructive if you searched for posts and threads on Djokovic's serve problem - with a low elbow - from around 2010. SystemicAnalomy is knowledgeable about those issues and has posted many times.

 

[LeeD]

Copy Stan Wawrinka.

 

[VacationTennis]

It's because you're trying to get it in. Keep practicing it off court if you think you are making progress on the change. When you're ready to move on court try turning around and sending some to the back fence so you won't try to get it in.

Then you can do something like taking a soft foam ball so you don't brace for impact. Then you can serve half court from the service box so that you don't have to swing like crazy to get it in. Eventually you'll get it, it takes time and the ability to control the looseness of your arm. I went through this process years ago going from a pancake serve to a real serve. Trust me I've been there bro- just take your time you'll get it.

 

[BetaServe]

Copy Stan Wawrinka.

Second this. Gotta exaggerate to offset the problem

 

[randzman]

Although I'm not quite sure what's wrong with the pose in your photos I'll offer this which might give you better feedback about what's wrong ... try to keep your arm moving at a constant speed. That is, become more aware if your stopping at the bottom of the swing arc (racket pointing down).

The reason is that if it stops at the bottom you're going to be accelerating more which usually results in disaster as the shoulder will turn, the waist will start to bend over, and once that happens the ball usually ends up near the bottom of the net.

With constant velocity swing you'll have better timing, less chance to bend at the waist as part of the acceleration, and you'll find the ball practically never hits the net and if it does it's just at the top. I've told three people do far to do it and every once says it's like a completely different serve that makes sense (because acceleration is impossible to track ... it's the enemy of mindfulness.)

 

[dnguyen]

Foot fault! Move back a bit. I have seen a lot of players foot faulted during the service motion. To me, that’s cheating.

 

[Deleted member 761442]

So, a month on from trying to fix this, I had no progress...tried everything...serving into the fence, continuous serve drill, buddy giving me instant feedback, serve progression drill...nothing was working. I could produce the perfect motion without a ball...even with a ball of I had no intention of hitting it. The moment I had intention to hit, the shoulder tucks back and the elbow comes into the body for a split second before the racket drop.

I was about to resign myself to using what I’ve got, but I then watched this video:

Today, I’ve managed to maintain the correct form with a ball. Progress! Small steps, this is against the fence still but a pretty good feeling.

Weird how it’s so hard to overcome the mind.

 

[BetaServe]

So, a month on from trying to fix this, I had no progress...tried everything...serving into the fence, continuous serve drill, buddy giving me instant feedback, serve progression drill...nothing was working. I could produce the perfect motion without a ball...even with a ball of I had no intention of hitting it. The moment I had intention to hit, the shoulder tucks back and the elbow comes into the body for a split second before the racket drop.

I was about to resign myself to using what I’ve got, but I then watched this video:

Today, I’ve managed to maintain the correct form with a ball. Progress! Small steps, this is against the fence still but a pretty good feeling.

Weird how it’s so hard to overcome the mind.

That's a very good video. Shows you how incredibly powerful the mind is. Instead of hours of drilling, you can change your strokes's technique almost instantly if you know how to trick your mind into visualizing the correct mental image of the stroke.
And I deeply believe that technique is a reflection of the mind on the stroke.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You should study a high speed video of your serve.

You should not try to figure the parts of the serve out piecemeal without understanding overall what is going on, since that was very well described about 20 years ago. Google every term that you don't know. The "long axis rotation" is internal shoulder rotation. The authors point out the failings of the Kinetic Chain Concept.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...nk_in_proximal-to-distal_segmental_sequencing

The upper arm is held out and not down so that several sub-motions of the service motion effectively cause external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR stretches the muscles that perform internal shoulder rotation(ISR). This is done by accelerating the shoulder while the upper arm, elbow, forearm and racket are held as seen in high speed videos of ATP serves. In other words, inertia is used. There are other motions of the serve in addition to ISR.

Biomechanically, if the upper arm is held against the body the jump will not cause forces (torques) for ESR as much as when the upper arm bone is out from the shoulder. Also, uppermost body turn (or 'trunk twist') with upper arm on side may cause some backward forces for ESR but then, because the upper arm is on the side, the large ISR muscle, the lat, has already been shortened by holding the upper arm aducted. This is obvious from the lat's anatomy - the lat's attachments are on the back and upper arm.

To do ISR safely involves keeping the upper arm angle to the shoulder joint within a limited angle range. ATP players are examples of good practice in almost every case. See high speed videos. That orientation of the upper arm is described by Todd Ellenbecker in a video "Rotator Cuff Injury". This video is viewable by joining Tennis Resources for a 3 month membership, about $30.

You should have a well informed tennis instructor or seriously study the available material on the tennis serve.

 

[Digital Atheist]

[..] I could produce the perfect motion without a ball...even with a ball of I had no intention of hitting it. The moment I had intention to hit, the shoulder tucks back and the elbow comes into the body for a split second before the racket drop..

Yep, it's commonly referred to as "muscle memory" and can be a real b*tch to overcome.

I was about to resign myself to using what I’ve got, but I then watched this video:

Today, I’ve managed to maintain the correct form with a ball. Progress! Small steps, this is against the fence still but a pretty good feeling.

Weird how it’s so hard to overcome the mind.

Video looks useful, don't give up! I saw Mark Kovacs recommend wrapping a towel several times around the bicep so that when your elbow drops the towel padding gives you instant feedback. Might be worth a try. Also, I would personally recommend going on "probation" and setting the elbow and hitting arm in some kind of trophy position BEFORE executing the toss and serve like that. Have your friend stand behind and stop you every time you begin to drop the elbow so you recognise the feeling of what you don't want. The key is to start slow and hit the ball at a gentle pace, making sure the elbow stays set. While re-learning this you must remember NOT to hit the ball hard, else it will all fall apart again. The video frv linked from @SystemicAnomaly is precisely what I'm talking about, but you will have to hit many many serves (hundreds and hundreds) using that abbreviated motion before you even begin to entertain going back to a full swing if you want to fix this.

Also, as an aside, do you use a platform stance, where your feet stay still?? I'm guessing yes given the position of other key body parts, and If so then your base is far too wide imo (it looks like you should be using a pinpoint or step up stance given those stills above). The feet should be approximately 12 inches apart using platform, with the toe of the backfoot in line with the heel of the front, but some variation is ok. Salzenstein has a few videos on serve stance and how to execute platform optimally, but take a look at Federer for an idea of what I mean.

Good luck.