Serve: the back foot---to slide or not to slide

[Verno Inferno]

What are the advantages and disadvantages associated with the step/slide that Karlovic/Wawrinka/many others take with their back foot during the toss of their serves?

Here's Roger's planted back foot, Karlovic's sliding back foot, and Wawrinka's stepping back foot.

Roger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0&feature=related

Karlovic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEKmzxO9rs&feature=related

Wawrinka (shorter step than Karlovic's long slide)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4t-l7KX1RM

Are there kinetic chain reasons for doing one over the other? Are there balance issues that are better served by one technique? Do you technically get more bowing of your body when you jut your hip into the court f you keep that back foot planted?

Obvioiusly, both are effective, but what's the word on this thing?

 

[LeeD]

NO real difference in amount of power produced.
Personal preference, yes.
Platform works great to achieve balance and consistency.
Pinpoint works great to get your body moving forwards into the serve.
What does YOUR serve need?

 

[Verno Inferno]

NO real difference in amount of power produced.
Personal preference, yes.
Platform works great to achieve balance and consistency.
Pinpoint works great to get your body moving forwards into the serve.
What does YOUR serve need?

Thanks Lee. My serve needs accuracy and consistency. This year is my first year back playing after about an 8 year lay-off, and I'm having more fun than ever learning about tennis. So anyway. I remember that 8 years ago I had a serve that was big for my skill level. And I always used the platform. This past fall serving was rough. But the pace started to come back as I started to get the ball up and out in front of me. So the pace is going to be there if I get off my butt and practice.

But I'm concerned that during matches I noticed that my back foot was inconsistent. Sometimes planted back there... sometimes it was dragging a little. Then the thought popped in my head: "Hey... why did I always keep it planted... some people use the pinpoint technique. Maybe now's a good time to re-assess old habits." And then all went to hell as I experimented.

I'm inclined to stick with my platform and stop debating. And start practicing. Lord knows I need fewer moving parts in my serve

 

[5263]

Thanks Lee. My serve needs accuracy and consistency. This year is my first year back playing after about an 8 year lay-off, and I'm having more fun than ever learning about tennis. So anyway. I remember that 8 years ago I had a serve that was big for my skill level. And I always used the platform. This past fall serving was rough. But the pace started to come back as I started to get the ball up and out in front of me. So the pace is going to be there if I get off my butt and practice.

But I'm concerned that during matches I noticed that my back foot was inconsistent. Sometimes planted back there... sometimes it was dragging a little. Then the thought popped in my head: "Hey... why did I always keep it planted... some people use the pinpoint technique. Maybe now's a good time to re-assess old habits." And then all went to hell as I experimented.

I'm inclined to stick with my platform and stop debating. And start practicing. Lord knows I need fewer moving parts in my serve

my experience is that pinpoint leads to chasing more bad tosses, which mean more inconsistencies.

 

[LeeD]

Platform or pinpoint, doesn't affect your bad toss!
Lots of big guys use platform, but for more body control, less movement, more containment of possible flailing parts.
Lots of little guys need more athletic movements to hit serves, so pinpoint is more dynamic, not necessarily better or worse.
Bad toss with pinpoint equals bad tosses with platform.

 

[Rickson]

Some players like bringing the foot up so much they bring up both feet. Safin, Haas, Youzhny, Verdasco.

 

[fuzz nation]

I think that our brains have their own preferences for this stance the same way that some of us like a two-handed backhand more than a one-hander. Use whatever feels like the better contributor for a consistent move to the ball.

One thing to keep in mind with the positioning of your feet, though. If you don't slide the back foot forward, make sure that you don't have an extremely closed stance or you may need to contort yourself too much to hit the serve well. Just try to keep it smooth, comfortable, and repeatable.

Also, if you do slide your back foot up, it can be counterproductive if you bring it up right alongside your front foot. Think of your front foot as being in the center of a clock and your target is up at twelve. If you're a righty server, sliding that back foot up into the area of six to four o'clock is a pretty good bet for getting good push and rotation in your motion.

 

[Racer41c]

Do you step back before the toss? or are you already in the platform? If you step back, you may not be stepping the optimal/consistent distance.

In either case, the width of your platform will affect how much you can rotate through your serve motion. For me, I find a shorter step back is much better and it helps keep my head from moving.

 

[LeeD]

Just me yabbling here...
I say, do NOT move either feet once you are in ready for motion position. Any movement is NOT replicable under pressure, and your serve will be inconsistent at best. Keep your feet in the same place on the ground.
Once you start your toss, your backfoot movement, if you do so choose to move it, must be exactly the same for EVERY serve.
Platform guys, don't matter closed or slightly open stanced, you use the stance you are comfortable with. Some guys need to twist into their serves, like Connors and McEnroe. Some guys need to be openstanced when they hit the ball, like Roche. Some guys need in between to LESSEN the amount of moving parts, like Gottfried and all the Wilson stiffs.
It doesn't matter HOW you do it, what matters is a consistent, replicable stroke on your serve.

 

[Verno Inferno]

One thing to keep in mind with the positioning of your feet, though. If you don't slide the back foot forward, make sure that you don't have an extremely closed stance or you may need to contort yourself too much to hit the serve well. Just try to keep it smooth, comfortable, and repeatable.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Nation o' Fuzz: I'm a righty. The way my dad tought me back in the day was the left foot pointing more or less at where I was planning on hitting the ball. So that wasn't extremely closed, if I get your meaning. But on the kick serve, I closed it off a bit. When it gets above 20 degrees here, I'm going to head outside and check on this because my kick serve is neither smooth, comfortable nor repeatable :evil::-?

Racer41c: I'll be mindful of the width when I get out there. As I'm leaning forward bouncing the ball during my pre-serve routine, I put my back foot behind me on it's tip-toes as the weight is on the front. I have noticed that I feel off balance every once in a while at this point with my weight mostly on my front foot during the pre-serve routine. When I played all the time, I never felt off balance. So this is driving me insane, too. I'm guessing that I'm not putting that foot back there at a consistent distance this year. I believe that when I wanted more power I had a tendancy to put it further back behind me instinctually thinking it would give me more momentum on the way back to the ball.

Warm up, weather. Warm, up..... I'll be filing these notes away, so thanks for the help folks.

 

[Verno Inferno]

Just me yabbling here...
I say, do NOT move either feet once you are in ready for motion position. Any movement is NOT replicable under pressure, and your serve will be inconsistent at best. Keep your feet in the same place on the ground.

It doesn't matter HOW you do it, what matters is a consistent, replicable stroke on your serve.

I did all sorts of stupid things in the middle of matches last fall when I would get frustrated with my serve. Most stupid, I believe, is when I caught myself doing this a couple times, which I've never done in my life:

During the pre-serve routine, I put my back foot behind me on it's toes. I would want more power and I instinctively would put it further back there. Then: as I rock back onto my back foot on the service motion, my FRONT foot would slide BACK toward the back foot. Sort of like the opposite of a foot fault.

(I sort of wonder if I subconsciously did this because my toss wasn't getting out in front of me, and my body was scooting behind the ball. But the other explanation is that my back foot was too far back for how my body is used to serving, so the left foot came back to where it was comfortable during the motion.)

All sorts of inconsistent, non-repeatable moronic things. This is what I get for just jumping into a league without taking the time to actually drill my strokes before getting back into competition. Working on this stuff in-match has been plain counter-productive.

 

[Rickson]

So does that mean if you're in the deuce court and you're planning on serving wide, you'd be in a ballet style plie? That's gotta be a difficult serve to master.

 

[Verno Inferno]

Ha! Bad description on my part. No... It's not that drastic on the deuce side. In the ad-court it points more toward the wide side if I want to hit it wide and more toward the T if that's where I'm going. So on the Deuce side if I want to hit a flat serve wide, it's pointing sorta at the middle of the ad court. If you play poker, you could call it an obvious tell indicating where I'm going to serve it.

 

[LeeD]

Personally, I'd rather not tell the returner exactly where I"m serving, what choice of serve, how high it bounces, and how much pace and spin I am going to employ.
Kinda, you know, like poker... :shock:

 

[Rickson]

Doesn't a 45 degree angle for the front foot work well for all serves?

 

[LeeD]

Yes it does. And the exact same placement of the backfoot works well for ALL serves. Not neccesarily same as front foot, but the same placement each time, each serve.
You shouldn't need to telegraph exact specs on each of your serves every time to your opponent.
The only variable is usually toss location (low toss helps disguise) and swingpath, which can't be read....opponent is looking at the ball.

 

[Verno Inferno]

Thanks guys. I think the stuff discussed in this thread has all contributed to my balance issues and inconsistency. I appreciate it and can't wait to get out there and work it out.

 

[Rickson]

No problem, and please don't point your left foot toward the wide side of the deuce court. You might tear some ligaments.

 

[Verno Inferno]

Again thanks for all your help, folks. I worked on this for 3 weekends before my season started. Life is much better and I won my first match 6-1, 6-3! Of course there's more work to do: the four games I lost were heavily double-faulted service games. But things are starting to click.