Serve Toss Yips

[Cindysphinx]

OK, my toss yips are getting bad.

I had a match last week in which I had to toss the ball repeatedly to get something I could hit. Biggest problem is that the toss goes too far to my left, and if I try to hit it the ball will never make it over the net. The secondary problem is that if I get a toss that is too far to the right, I try to hit it anyway because if I catch it the next toss will be even worse.

I have a singles match tomorrow, and I simply cannot toss four times before I hit the dang ball. It's embarrassing, and our matches are timed so it's not cool to waste time. I've tried everything I know: tapping the ground where I would want the ball to land, visualizing my contact point, visualizing a circle around myself, slowing down my pre-toss motion. Nothing is working. I think part of the problem is that I am tossing higher than I used to (trying to use more racket drop and knee bend), and that is exposing inaccurate tosses.

I was going to go practice and try to get this sorted today, but of course it is raining.

Anyone got a quickie solution that can help for tomorrow's match?

 

[SuperDuy]

I just looked up to where I want the toss to be then it usually goes there and I hit it. Do not watch the ball as you throw it up. I usually put my racquet on court infront of me and try to get the ball on the string bed practice that before match.

 

[LeeD]

Don't toss.
Instead, PLACE the ball 2' higher than your reach. It will end up low, so adopt a continuous swing without a stop.
Besides visualizing, LOOK exactly where you want to ball to be placed. Open your eyes and actually LOOK at your target location.
Hold ball like it'a a hot coffee cup. Hold racket hand ball hand around mid chest level, so your motion is shorter, and more accurate.

 

[SuperDuy]

Don't toss.
Instead, PLACE the ball 2' higher than your reach. It will end up low, so adopt a continuous swing without a stop.
Besides visualizing, LOOK exactly where you want to ball to be placed. Open your eyes and actually LOOK at your target location.
Hold ball like it'a a hot coffee cup. Hold racket hand ball hand around mid chest level, so your motion is shorter, and more accurate.

this is some good advice leed. supports racquet with ball hand for more relaxed arm

 

[LeeD]

It's just that I see some horrid tosses from guys who toss from the hip, or lower. Yet guys who start their racket and toss hand up around lower chest seem to hit ever toss. With the higher starting point, the player tends to not "TOSS", but instead PLACE the ball up over their ballside shoulder, so it's more gentle and accurate.

 

[Ripper014]

You do not need a court to practice your toss... just somewhere where the ceiling is high enough.

I have been helping a friend sort out his serving issues... and the one constant thing is you cannot hit a good serve unless you have a good toss.

What we have done is to take away one plane on the toss... to do this I had him turn away from the court during the take away... having his arm parallel with the baseline... and toss the ball up from that position. I like to use the word PLACE the ball where you want it. If you place the ball with your arm parallel with the service line you are only dealing with bad tosses that will be left and right of your target. Tosses too far in front and behind you should be eliminated.

During your service motion find yourself nice smooth and slow... do not be in a hurry to hit the ball... slowly accelerate into the ball... think more about being loose and quick rather than hard. You only need to transfer energy a impact... not before or after the ball is gone. Go for keeping your eye on the ball til after impact... and making contact in the center of your racket (this can be key, most people are just trying to hit the ball with the racket)... you get more power from a solid swing with perfect contact than muscling a ball and a slight mishit.

Oh and never never never... hit down... hit out to your target, you want your racket face pretty much square at impact. It will be odd at first but your body will start to adjust... if you are hitting down... make sure your toss is not out too far in front of you.

If you have the yips... it could be you are holding the ball too tight... cradle it more like an egg... relax... like I said stay loose.. and be smooth, accelerate into the ball...

 

[LeeD]

All tosses should be with the toss arm aligned with the baseline.
That means, you close your stance so your back is facing your opponent.
:shock:

 

[Ripper014]

All tosses should be with the toss arm aligned with the baseline.
That means, you close your stance so your back is facing your opponent.
:shock:

Not obvious to a lot of players. Especially to any that serve with a western grip/pancake grip, which you see with less advanced players.

 

[SuperDuy]

Thats right leed. thanks for that tip, will try it today. "just place the ball"

 

[skiracer55]

What he said...

Don't toss.
Instead, PLACE the ball 2' higher than your reach. It will end up low, so adopt a continuous swing without a stop.
Besides visualizing, LOOK exactly where you want to ball to be placed. Open your eyes and actually LOOK at your target location.
Hold ball like it'a a hot coffee cup. Hold racket hand ball hand around mid chest level, so your motion is shorter, and more accurate.

...I think there's another aspect to the toss that bears consideration. One of my coaches told me to get a lot of the backswing done with my racket arm, then commit to the endgame of the "lifting and placing" of the toss. Some players toss, then start the backswing, beginners are kind of taught to start the backswing and toss at the same time. In either case, IMHO, when you start the backswing, you're essentially guessing where the toss is going to end up. If you get lots of the backswing done, you can now see/visualize the exact spot you need to toss to, as LeeD says, and it's a lot easier to place the ball at a specific spot rather than doing the "toss and hope" method...

 

[jrod]

It's just that I see some horrid tosses from guys who toss from the hip, or lower. Yet guys who start their racket and toss hand up around lower chest seem to hit ever toss. With the higher starting point, the player tends to not "TOSS", but instead PLACE the ball up over their ballside shoulder, so it's more gentle and accurate.

This is perhaps the best advice I've seen to date from LeeD. "Spot on" as Jason and Robbie would say...

 

[Ripper014]

...I think there's another aspect to the toss that bears consideration. One of my coaches told me to get a lot of the backswing done with my racket arm, then commit to the endgame of the "lifting and placing" of the toss. Some players toss, then start the backswing, beginners are kind of taught to start the backswing and toss at the same time. In either case, IMHO, when you start the backswing, you're essentially guessing where the toss is going to end up. If you get lots of the backswing done, you can now see/visualize the exact spot you need to toss to, as LeeD says, and it's a lot easier to place the ball at a specific spot rather than doing the "toss and hope" method...

For me there is a rythym to serving... both my hands start moving up slightly as my service motion starts... then both hands drop and then both hand start back up again... during this time is when I make my toss.

Don't toss.
Instead, PLACE the ball 2' higher than your reach. It will end up low, so adopt a continuous swing without a stop.
Besides visualizing, LOOK exactly where you want to ball to be placed. Open your eyes and actually LOOK at your target location.
Hold ball like it'a a hot coffee cup. Hold racket hand ball hand around mid chest level, so your motion is shorter, and more accurate.

Personally I think 2' is higher than you want to be tossing your ball... 12 inches would be better... and less affected by the enviroment. But it is a personal preference... and we all need to find what works best for us.

 

[LeeD]

I'm more the StanSmith/PetrKorda style of serving, throw then wait in trophy for the ball to come back down.
When I go for Tanner's motion, all blur, my shoulders take a beating, as does my back and elbows.
I'm skinny and frail, just a fragile little flower...:neutral:

 

[dlk]

It's just that I see some horrid tosses from guys who toss from the hip, or lower. Yet guys who start their racket and toss hand up around lower chest seem to hit ever toss. With the higher starting point, the player tends to not "TOSS", but instead PLACE the ball up over their ballside shoulder, so it's more gentle and accurate.

I'm trying this one. Never thought of it like that.

 

[Ripper014]

I'm more the StanSmith/PetrKorda style of serving, throw then wait in trophy for the ball to come back down.
When I go for Tanner's motion, all blur, my shoulders take a beating, as does my back and elbows.
I'm skinny and frail, just a fragile little flower...:neutral:

I hear you... I am somewhere inbetween, like you I am not a big guy... but I can generate a lot of pace at will, but my power comes from old fashion skillsets... good weight transfer, contact and timing. Oh and that thing called racket head speed.

 

[supineAnimation]

I've written this before, but the elbow and wrist should play no part in your tossing motion, Cindy. The rotation of the elbow and wrist allow for too much variability which is difficult to control consistently enough to produce a reliable toss. Toss only by lifting the arm from the shoulder upward and simply let the ball go from your hand while the arm continues to follow the direction of the toss.

 

[SuperDuy]

I'm more the StanSmith/PetrKorda style of serving, throw then wait in trophy for the ball to come back down.
When I go for Tanner's motion, all blur, my shoulders take a beating, as does my back and elbows.
I'm skinny and frail, just a fragile little flower...:neutral:

Ha, I know how some people like that. They throw the ball up soo high and then wait 'long time' for it to be at a good spot to REACH and hit the ball.

some old guy from uk told me the other day, hit mostly second serves in practice put out racquet covers aim for them, second serves need to be consistant etc all the things I know.One thing he said that I will hang onto is reach really high jump up into the ball. wasnt quite doing that before. 2 more important shots are serve and serve return, obv i know that too. but I will never turn down advice from someone who was a great coach back in the day of the early 70s.

 

[Ripper014]

Ha, I know how some people like that. They throw the ball up soo high and then wait 'long time' for it to be at a good spot to REACH and hit the ball.

some old guy from uk told me the other day, hit mostly second serves in practice put out racquet covers aim for them, second serves need to be consistant etc all the things I know.One thing he said that I will hang onto is reach really high jump up into the ball. wasnt quite doing that before. 2 more important shots are serve and serve return, obv i know that too. but I will never turn down advice from someone who was a great coach back in the day of the early 70s.

I don't know about jumping into the ball... but I do preach going after the ball and not letting it come to you. Or as LeeD would like to say... be the lion not the lamb.

 

[LeeD]

Not talking about me...
I was a stupid all physical athlete back then, from surfing to roadracing to motocross to waterski jumping, no brains, just some hops and energy.
The brain didn't kick in until the physical went away, about yesterday.

 

[LeeD]

I think it's sufficient for your toes to leave the ground by about 10" on the first serves. Any higher, and you're a volleyball server, without accuracy and balance on landing.
As an old fart, closer to 6" nowadaze.
And try to land inside the court by 18".

 

[jswinf]

OK, my toss yips are getting bad.

I had a match last week in which I had to toss the ball repeatedly to get something I could hit. Biggest problem is that the toss goes too far to my left, and if I try to hit it the ball will never make it over the net. The secondary problem is that if I get a toss that is too far to the right, I try to hit it anyway because if I catch it the next toss will be even worse.

I have a singles match tomorrow, and I simply cannot toss four times before I hit the dang ball. It's embarrassing, and our matches are timed so it's not cool to waste time. I've tried everything I know: tapping the ground where I would want the ball to land, visualizing my contact point, visualizing a circle around myself, slowing down my pre-toss motion. Nothing is working. I think part of the problem is that I am tossing higher than I used to (trying to use more racket drop and knee bend), and that is exposing inaccurate tosses.

I was going to go practice and try to get this sorted today, but of course it is raining.

Anyone got a quickie solution that can help for tomorrow's match?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxvNcftCR7E

I found this video very helpful. Why not take a couple of minutes to check it out, since it's raining anyway?

 

[hacker_101]

What helped me is what ripper alluded to - Rhythm.

I was also having the same problem with the toss coming too far to my left but I found my problem was that I paused too long before I started tossing. I would pause as the tossing arm was parallel to the baseline and then try to serve. So I changed the timing...

Rituals.

Between points I think of what play I want to execute. (example >>> heavy kicker to backhand to open the court)

I walk to the line.

Now I bounce the ball 3 to 5 times to balance myself and clear my head. This is my pause before the serve.

When I stop bouncing the ball I begin the service motion and I don't look back.

 

[Cindysphinx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxvNcftCR7E

I found this video very helpful. Why not take a couple of minutes to check it out, since it's raining anyway?

Yes, that video was helpful. Thanks!

The interesting thing is that he validated what I was feeling: When your toss is off and you have to catch, it affects your confidence. I start thinking, "Well, I'd better not bend my knees or really go after this serve because I'm not sure where this toss is going." The other thing I am noticing is that I am so absorbed in my serve that I'm not ready to play the darn point if it does go in the box.

OK, I'll try the shoulder thing and some of the alignment and wrist tips you guys mentioned. I could toss last month, so I should be able to toss tomorrow, right?

It's going to rain again tomorrow, so my first attempt to fix my toss will be in the warm-up!

 

[Donny0627]

Visualize a shelf at the hieght at which you want your toss to be at its peak.

Then when you toss, think about it as you are landing it just onto the shelf.

 

[LeeD]

AGAIN....
Don't toss.
Instead, PLACE the ball 24" above your left hand in front of your left shoulder.

 

[Steady Eddy]

That "toss", (or whatever you want to call it), is the toughest thing in tennis, IMO.

 

[cesarmo03]

Cindy this has been what i been doing and is more effective that thinking place the ball about 3 meters off the ground, about 5,4 inches of your right shoulder.

Look the video of the that jswinf post you can see that his left foot point at the right net pole and his left arm is in the same direction as his thigh know what i mean? he only use his shoulder for the toss and also use his left thigh as a guide for tossing the ball and also you can see that he dont flex his elbow just follow the motion with his arm extended.

 

[BMC9670]

I play against a guy who tosses three, four times per serve. Drives me nuts. The pro at our club suggested he stand under a basketball hoop and toss the ball so it goes up through the hoop and back down a hundred times a day. It might look a little goofy, but it probably helps the consistency of the toss.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I play against a guy who tosses three, four times per serve. Drives me nuts. The pro at our club suggested he stand under a basketball hoop and toss the ball so it goes up through the hoop and back down a hundred times a day. It might look a little goofy, but it probably helps the consistency of the toss.

Oooh, this might help. One problem with practicing is you can't really be sure how accurate you are being.

I have basketball hoops near the house. If the rain lets up for a few minutes I might try this.

 

[Nellie]

sigh - I just chase the bad toss and take the complements when the opponent asks how I hit that wicked spin (that I will never be able to reproduce)

 

[Cindysphinx]

sigh - I just chase the bad toss and take the complements when the opponent asks how I hit that wicked spin (that I will never be able to reproduce)

And footfault!

 

[donnygg]

Based on your description, it sounds like you're tossing by raising your arm parallel to the baseline, since you're having problem with the ball being too far left/right. I used to have this problem too. What I did to remedy this was to toss with my arm in the court.
- Decide where you want the toss to be
- Hold the ball below that position
- Raise your arm straight up (locked elbow and wrist) to place the toss
I'm not sure if that's orthodox but it works for me

 

[skiracer55]

This works for me, too...

For me there is a rythym to serving... both my hands start moving up slightly as my service motion starts... then both hands drop and then both hand start back up again... during this time is when I make my toss.



Personally I think 2' is higher than you want to be tossing your ball... 12 inches would be better... and less affected by the enviroment. But it is a personal preference... and we all need to find what works best for us.

...meaning the concept of rhythm as being the overall concept that knits together the serve (including but not limited to the toss) and the idea of only tossing as only as high as you need to to contact the ball with the racket fully outstretched. However...having said all that good stuff about tossing only as high, this only works, IMHO, if you release the toss fairly late in the whole motion. If you toss early, you almost have to toss really high, and essentially catch the thing as it is coming back down into the hitting zone. Ergo, my point, see above, about releasing the toss late.

Rhythm, like balance, is a really useful meta concept for any stroke, not just the serve, and for constructing points as opposed to just hitting a ball, hanging out, and then hitting the next ball. There's this myth, I think, that once you've taken x number of lessons, hit 10,000 balls, or whatever the metric is, that you have a stroke wired. Not really true, even at the highest levels. Federer has one of the great forehands of all time, but occasionally, it'll let him down, and he'll make a horrendous number of forehand winners off the forehand wing. The answer to a bad day like that, or a bad patch with a particular stroke is often two simple things: (1) Don't worry about it, just play through it, the stroke will come back to you and (2) Avoid trying to micromanage the details, and just try to get your rhythm back. In this thread, there are about a bazillion tips, all of them good, to fixing a bad toss. Maybe the best is, just go out there and try to find your rhythm on the whole service motion, and the toss will fall into line...

 

[Ajtat411]

I'm having the same issue with my ball toss. I'm adjusting my ball toss to have more of a uniform path because I like the idea of disguising my serves.

Typically, I have been tossing in front of me and to the right for flat serves and tossing more behind me and above my head for 2nd serves. I have been able to adapt to this toss method but feel that I could gain more from having a uniform ball toss (disguise) and tossing my 2nd serve more into the court for a heavier 2nd serve.

This adjustment has totally thrown off my 1st and 2nd serve toss. I also saw a video where the toss should be more like reverse J shape because this allows for ball to be tossed forward into the court.

Does anyone use this type of serve toss? I never really thought about my toss path before but I guess it just ends up where it needs to be naturally???

 

[LeeD]

I won't discuss the J toss ..
But almost every professional tennis player uses different toss locations for first flat serves, and highly topspun second serves. If they want disquise, like Sampras, they use the second serve toss location to hit a hard topspin first serve!
The reason? One could be the returner knows which serve you're gonna use. When you miss one, you will hit a second serve, meaning toss over your head somewhere.
When you have both serves availible, they have to be ready for the results of your serve, not focusing on your toss.
If you choose a heavy topspin first serve, they're OK with it, it's slower and they have more time.
If you choose fast flat first serve, they HAVE to be ready for it first and foremost, regardless of your toss location....so they don't focus on your toss, they focus on the circumstances and history!
No need to disquise serves, better to hit them well.

 

[EikelBeiter]

I don't know any tips for that.

I just know it happens on all levels, I played a 5.0 last year who threw the ball over the backfence at one point. I couldn't stop laughing

 

[Ajtat411]

I won't discuss the J toss ..
But almost every professional tennis player uses different toss locations for first flat serves, and highly topspun second serves. If they want disquise, like Sampras, they use the second serve toss location to hit a hard topspin first serve!
The reason? One could be the returner knows which serve you're gonna use. When you miss one, you will hit a second serve, meaning toss over your head somewhere.
When you have both serves availible, they have to be ready for the results of your serve, not focusing on your toss.
If you choose a heavy topspin first serve, they're OK with it, it's slower and they have more time.
If you choose fast flat first serve, they HAVE to be ready for it first and foremost, regardless of your toss location....so they don't focus on your toss, they focus on the circumstances and history!
No need to disquise serves, better to hit them well.

^Makes sense, so basically that explains why 1st serve percentages are so important when pro's play. If you get your 1st serve in, it is less predicable as far as what type of ball you hit. If you miss, it will most likely be a "safe" second serve that lands in with a lot of topspin.

I agree with what you said for 90% of the time, but what if your opponnet needs that edge against you and is reading your serve tosses? Doesn't that happen from time to time? Just like in baseball when hitters try to locate the hand/ball when it leaves the pitcher to get a read on the type of ball thrown?

But from looking at video of pro players, it seems like they have a uniform toss, but they just choose to hit the ball in at a different point along the toss path? There is not much difference I can tell from their 1st serve toss to their 2nd serve toss.

 

[BMC9670]

Oooh, this might help. One problem with practicing is you can't really be sure how accurate you are being.

I have basketball hoops near the house. If the rain lets up for a few minutes I might try this.

I've tried it with my driveway hoop, but the net made it hard. Seems like it would work much better on a hoop that was missing the net, which many public hoops are.

 

[Steady Eddy]

But from looking at video of pro players, it seems like they have a uniform toss, but they just choose to hit the ball in at a different point along the toss path? There is not much difference I can tell from their 1st serve toss to their 2nd serve toss.

Do pros ever have bad tosses? Is that why serving looks so easy when they do it? I've heard that one should practice the toss, but I just can't bring myself to do something that boring. Maybe that's why the best players aren't bothered by the sun when serving, their toss is so consistent that they don't even have to look!

 

[LeeD]

I think you are forgeting one thing.
Placement of a second serve can be varied from way wide on one side to way wide the other, then directly into your body or just to one side of.
Same for first serves.
So KNOWING which serve is only one criteria for reading the serve. Now, WHERE is it going?
In baseball, the strikezone is knees to sternum, wide as the plate. On ONE side of your body. So timing becomes the big issue, location not so much.
I suspect every pro player can read when a first is coming, and mostly when a second is coming. But the server can VARY his pace and spin, placement and depth. SOOOO many variables for returning a tennis serve, that focusing on toss location is not the main worry. The main focus should be solidly executed forcing return, but the incoming ball varies 10' in width, 4 in depth, and bounces vary, as do spins and ball speed.
For my limited mind, it's better for me to focus on my hit, rather than where the toss is going.

 

[Ajtat411]

I think you are forgeting one thing.
Placement of a second serve can be varied from way wide on one side to way wide the other, then directly into your body or just to one side of.
Same for first serves.
So KNOWING which serve is only one criteria for reading the serve. Now, WHERE is it going?
In baseball, the strikezone is knees to sternum, wide as the plate. On ONE side of your body. So timing becomes the big issue, location not so much.
I suspect every pro player can read when a first is coming, and mostly when a second is coming. But the server can VARY his pace and spin, placement and depth. SOOOO many variables for returning a tennis serve, that focusing on toss location is not the main worry. The main focus should be solidly executed forcing return, but the incoming ball varies 10' in width, 4 in depth, and bounces vary, as do spins and ball speed.
For my limited mind, it's better for me to focus on my hit, rather than where the toss is going.

I follow you, but with my skills being at a 3.5 level, my serve placement isn't like the pros, so my 2nd serves usually go in the middle of the box or depending on where the toss above my head is and how I hit it. lol

I can understand that toss location may not be a major issue to a pro player, but with a lowly 3.5 legaue player like me, I need an edge wherever I can get it.

I also like the idea of having 1 single toss motion that I can hit any flat/topspin/kick serve with. Maybe that's impossible but just looking at the pro players serving, I can't even tell that there is a different toss motion when I replay the video. Maybe it's just me. So is there a different toss "motion" not location for each type of serve? I understand the different locations.

 

[LeeD]

I suspect it's just you.
I can tell.
Unfortunately, most of the pros move their bodies into position for each particular serve, so it's too late by the time I can tell...also the same for their opponents. They might toss similarly, but they themselves move differently under each toss. Almost the same thing, but too late to see, recognize, and react to.
Work on your serves. Even at a falling 4.0, I can hit flats center, wide left, wide right....topspin seconds center, wide left, wide right, topslice second center and wide right (me lefty), twists centered, wide left... all about 90% accuracy. Doesn't mean I can hit the lines, means I can hit to my opponent's backhand or forehand, wide or tight, at will.

 

[Slazenger07]

When I was having similar problems(granted this is still an issue for me) my coach told me to hold onto the ball with my finger tips and release it when my hand reaches my forehead, this made me hold on the release longer than I ever had and made my toss much more consistent and more under control. I need to get in the habit of doing this more often, Im double faulting too much for my liking lately.

 

[Ajtat411]

A lot of great tips in this thread.

Thanks

 

[Cindysphinx]

Your tips helped me a lot in my match last night. I remember having a couple of times when I had to toss three times, but mostly I was able to settle down. I had too many DFs, but I can't blame the tosses (it was tightness due to nerves). I noticed when I did have a horrible toss way over to my left, it was the fault of the fingers.

I'll keep working on this. Thank you!!!

 

[LeeD]

Why are fingers and wrist part of the equation?
Hold the ball like its a hot cup of coffee, and use middle finger to support the bottom.

 

[orangettecoleman]

Something I do whenever I practice is I only swing at every other toss, so every second toss is essentially just focusing on making sure the ball is in exactly the right place each time rather than focusing on how I'm going to hit it. FWIW it's helped me a lot. Still need to practice more though.

 

[Ajtat411]

Why are fingers and wrist part of the equation?
Hold the ball like its a hot cup of coffee, and use middle finger to support the bottom.

I've tried this method and it seems that I started using the wrist, but it does cut out the fingers from the equation. I didn't really like this toss grip though for some reason. I tried it but never stuck with it. Maybe I need to revisit this technique.

 

[Cindysphinx]

^Yeah, that method doesn't work for me either. I fling the ball way over to the left every time. Using just fingers works best for me.

 

[sureshs]

All tosses should be with the toss arm aligned with the baseline.
That means, you close your stance so your back is facing your opponent.
:shock:

I have read it should be aligned to your front foot