SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Serena used a weak Eastern or Aussie grip on 1st serves. Aka semi-continental
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Serving grip
- Thread starter optic yellow
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I believe Serena uses a grip similar to Venus. They claim they are using an EFh grip but are likely confused about grip names. In this video, Venus says to use an Eastern grip rather than a SW grip for the serve. However, the grip she shows us is more toward a Continental. Close to the Aussie grip that Boris Becker used. (Many often mistakenly referred to the BB grip as an Eastern).
optic yellow
Legend
My apologies for not reading it more carefully. If you are saying so generally then I agree with you it is a pattern that can appear and is problematic. It is easy to fall into the trap of chasing that one crucial bit of information to unlock things because there are definitely times where that is actually true. Anyone who doesn't understand how a throwing motion actually generated so much power needs to be told about ISR because it is impossible to produce serious force without it. Of course other times that missing piece of information is simply that they need to practice what they are doing more rather than talking about it!
I agree a professional coach would make the process quicker but I am good enough at teaching myself things I don't think it is absolutely necessary. I am at this point making very quick progress learning the service motion; today I played a practice set and by the end of it was able to consistently get first serves in using the correct leading edge chop action. I can only do so with minimal body action so it obviously lacks power but this is so essential to the serve I feel like it is still a big step. This thread has been extremely helpful in contributing to this so I would like to thank you and the others who have replied for your help. I could maybe just call that my coaching
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Don't fall for the 'Fat Pad' Myth. Unless you are DIY Server.
See post #16.
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
See post #16.
Tennis Grips - Usually the Fat Pad Doesn't touch ANYTHING! ?
For the high level forehand, one hand backhand and the serve, the fat pad is most often not contacted by the racket. That's my opinion looking at high level stroke videos and pictures. But when I look at most instructions the 'fat pad' or 'heel pad' is used as a reference point. True or...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The angle wrt to the forearm?
Not sure exactly but I believe that ISR might start to happen before the Big L position I spoke of earlier. But most of its contribution is after the Big L until impact. At least that is what the graph above suggests. The largest peak in that graph shows ISR. Ball impact is the Yellow zone shown. (Unfortunately, it is difficult to make out the grainy images above the graph).
So, if ISR starts at the Big L or a bit before it, the racket would appear to be about 90 degrees wrt the forearm
Does any of this detail really help???
This graph is from the 2000 Elliott & Marshal publication "Long Axis Rotation - the Missing Link......
It is an ideal way to simply display the time history of the joint motions of the serve vs time.
However, the accuracy of the ISR measurement was questioned by Brian Gordon about 2008. The inaccuracy was that the reflective balls, used to measure ISR angle, lag behind the motion of the bones inside the arm. [The bones define the joint motions, not the skin.] The ISR bone angle shown occurred earlier due to the time lag of the skin to move during ISR. Care should be taken when reading ISR angle and pronation angle vs time from that graph. I believe that measuring long axis rotations, as for ISR, is still a problem with 3D motion capture systems using reflective balls mounted on the arm because of the delayed flesh movement.
A second thing to keep separate when considering that graph, which is a most logical way to display the timing of the serve, is that it shows the angular motion and not necessarily any muscular forces. The main issue is this - the ISR muscles apply forces and accelerate the ISR angle. Those muscle forces might completely stop before impact, and then what happens? ISR continues from inertia at high speed with some deceleration.
Remember that ISR muscle forces and ISR angular velocities (forward velocities) are not the same thing in graphs.
But what happens then to pronation? If ISR muscle forces have accelerated the racket head up to 100 MPH and then if those ISR muscle forces stop, the inertia of the 100 MPH forearm and racket may cause pronation without pronation muscle forces. I believe that and other speculations could be consistent with what is observed in high speed videos - angles but not forces. I highlighted certain times of ISR & pronation in yellow in the graph to indicate the timing discussed here.
Future detailed and accurate measurements and their timing are needed to produce an accurate future graph like the one displayed. The timing of ISR around high accelerations is questionalble.
I use bone & tendon shadows at the elbow to observe and confirm ISR. Shadows of internet serve videos with no control over the experimental conditions have low accuracy that is not well understood (by me). But if the measurements were controlled and the server cooperated, a calibration could be applied before or after the serve video to improve the ISR shadow measurement accuracy. To do that, for example, a college tennis program could measure the ISR & pronation of its players to some degree of accuracy by using calibrated shadows. Eye estimates of elbow shadow in videos show differences in ISR angle from start to impact.
The sum of ISR plus pronation angles with a straight elbow can now be measured by the wrist rotation. That is because the wrist bone orientation is directly observable through the skin. Maybe the racket shaft could also be used. ? A calibration procedure is needed.
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optic yellow
Legend
Does the wrist flexion suffer this measurement drawback too or not?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I believe that long axis rotations would suffer this problem significantly.
Here is a report from the early work. See Figure 1 and read the description.
If you want to interpret the graph data published in the 2000 publication see if you can find references in in that publication. I believe that I saw another description around 1997 or 98 with more descriotion of reflective balls.
The problem is that for long axis rotations the bone goes nowhere, it just rotates around its long axis. For flexion the bones usually move a lot and the reflective balls would show the bone positions better I think.
Take your left hand and grip your elbow. Cause internal shoulder rotation and external shoulder rotation with some finger pressure on your skin. Gripping the skin, you will feel the bones inside moving but the skin is stopped by your fingers. That's the problem in measuring ISR, the inertia, like your fingers, may cause muscles and flesh to lag but your bones inside can rotate quite a bit.
Do the same kind of test on wrist flexion and the bone and skin will move together and not cause a big error. (If reflective balls were ever attached to the bicep muscle area of the upper arm there would be a huge lag for ISR.)
First thoughts, you need to track down the publications describing the reflective balls and where they were mounted for wrist flexion. I don't expect that there would be a problem but if you find the motion capture description for the graph measurements, please post.
Also, Brian Gordon published on this issue for long axis rotation about 2008 or 2009. I have a thread about the 2000 Marshall and Elliott publication and that thread has the Gordon publication listed, I believe.
Ironically, I posted a thread on 'the most important publication on the tennis serve', and then found the details on this issue for ISR. It's still the most important publication in my view, very widely referenced.
The Most Important Publication on the Tennis Serve
In every field of study, certain publications have significantly changed understanding. This is the most important publication for the tennis serve. Long-axis rotation: The missing link in proximal-to-distal segmental sequencing (2000) Robert N. Marshall, Bruce C. Elliott...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
The elbow shadows are not accurate for measurements so far, but they confirm that the upper arm bone is rotating from ISR in my opinion.
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Yeah they seem to be the eastern side of continental/Australian. De Minaur looks to be eastern fh
Don't fall for the 'Fat Pad' Myth. Unless you are DIY Server.
See post #16.
Tennis Grips - Usually the Fat Pad Doesn't touch ANYTHING! ?
For the high level forehand, one hand backhand and the serve, the fat pad is most often not contacted by the racket. That's my opinion looking at high level stroke videos and pictures. But when I look at most instructions the 'fat pad' or 'heel pad' is used as a reference point. True or...
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I believe long axis rotations would suffer this problem.
Here is a report from the early work. See Figure 1 and read the description.
If you want to interpret the graph data published in the 2000 publication see if you can find references in in that publication. I believe that I saw another description around 1997 or 98 with more descriotion of reflective balls.
The problem is that for long axis rotations the bone goes nowhere, it just rotates around its long axis. For flexion the bones usually move a lot and the reflective balls would show the bone positions better I think.
Take your left hand and grip your elbow. Cause internal shoulder rotation and external shoulder rotation with some finger pressure on your skin. Gripping the skin, you will feel the bones inside moving but the skin is stopped by your fingers. That's the problem in measuring ISR, the inertia, like your fingers, may cause muscles and flesh to lag but your bones inside can rotate quite a bit.
Do the same kind of test on wrist flexion and the bone and skin will not have much of an error.
First thoughts you need to track down the publications.
Also, Brian Gordon published on this issue about 2008 or 2009. I have a thread about the 2000 Marshall and Elliott publication and that thread has the Gordon publication listed also, I believe.
Ironically, I posted a thread on 'the most important publication on the serve', and then found the details on this issue.
AlecG
Semi-Pro
Some of the answers here are incorrect as you know.
It's possible to produce all of the main serve types with Eastern: "flat", slice & kick.
I suspect that "it prevents correct pronation" is correct but as you know it is incomplete.
My hypothesis at the moment is that it might be about protecting the wrist in the follow through (and/or during ball contact)? Eastern forehand requires less pronation at the point of contact, which means less pronation in the follow through, which may put the wrist under more strain for most players.
However, pronation itself can put strain on the shoulder, so if you feel more comfortable with Eastern & it's not hurting your wrist, you might be fine. I wouldn't try to force something that doesn't feel comfortable for you, but be aware of the way your wrist feels in the follow through.
One reason that I wouldn't worry about it is that quite a few pros are holding their racquet with the index knuckle & the heel pad between bevel 2 & bevel 3. Some people call this the "Aussie".
I've created a list of some of the pros who reportedly use this grip or seem to be using it here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/pros-using-aussie-grip-on-serve.748778
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AlecG
Semi-Pro
The greater pronation could also result in higher capacity to generate spin or even pace (without injuring yourself) in practice.
However, again, I haven't seen clear evidence yet that Continental is better than Aussie, or how many of the best servers in each height category are actually using each. It may depend whether wrist strain or shoulder strain is a bigger issue for you. For most people I'd say try both (carefully) & see what's most comfortable.
However, again, I haven't seen clear evidence yet that Continental is better than Aussie, or how many of the best servers in each height category are actually using each. It may depend whether wrist strain or shoulder strain is a bigger issue for you. For most people I'd say try both (carefully) & see what's most comfortable.
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optic yellow
Legend
Both are honestly big concerns, so I would rather optimize for general overall comfort. I still cannot do continental without feeling like I am losing the racquet but Aussie feels secure and connected so it seems like this is the way forward, at least for the short term. It feels like serendipitous timing you made this response now because @travlerajm (@CAREDDINGTON you can take assist credit) just gave me the insight I needed to finally get something approximating a consistent toss + load so I really need to turn my focus to the casting of the racquet to keep the progress going. I will play around a bunch with this the next time I practice and report back.
CAREDDINGTON
Semi-Pro
If you have your windup(load) correct, then the toss is the next thing you need to focus on. It took me a solid 6 months of being aware of placing my toss better to gain consistency. I am not 50 however, so no age-pain restrictions.
AlecG
Semi-Pro
I need to correct something I said, in that I've found continental also puts more strain on my wrist than Aussie. Aussie grip allows me to hit without pronating the wrist much if at all and only pronating the shoulder. This actually feels a lot better for me. Continental hurts my wrist in the follow-through from too much pronation and Eastern hurts my wrist when hitting slice or kick because the follow through is awkward and at the wrong angle.
