shot selection question: when to use different amount of spin

[johnmccabe]

To provide context, I recently started to play 7.0 mixed doubles and 3.5 men's double. I have good strokes, can hit heavy deep top spin and some penetrating knife slice, but without enough consistency in match situations yet. My rarely hit flat groundstroke. I think one of my problems is I don't have a good understanding about when to mix in the right amount of spin in matches.

Do you guys have any suggestions on how much spin vs drive you mix into a shot? everything is appreciated. It can be situation specific. It can be some broad brush general guidance that may not apply on every single shot.

 

[socallefty]

You can win points by either forcing errors or hitting winners. To force errors, you have to trouble the opponent in some way. One way to do is is to hit with more pace than they are used to which also gives them less time to set up - hitting flatter can help with that. Another way is to give them balls that are out of their preferred hitting zone - higher height with topspin or lower with slice. You can also make them move up/down or left/right to hit shots on the run which forces errors - high balls with topspin are good when you move them laterally and low balls with slice are good when you move them up.

To hit winners, you have to open up space and then hit winners into that open space. Both topspin and slice can be used to generate angles which open up space on the other side of the court. When you go for the winner, higher spin can give you more margin for error, but flatter shots can take away time - so, you have to decide on the right balance of pace and spin.

The strategies you have to win points are: change pace/spin, change depth, change ball height at contact for opponent, hit closer to lines or to smaller targets, have more shot tolerance on neutral balls, take away time, open up space, make them move more than they want to including up/down, use your serve to set up point patterns you like, use your return to set up point patterns you like, bring them to net if they don’t like it, go to the net yourself etc. Know your strengths and play to them. Find out your opponent‘s weakness and see if you can exploit them.

Spin is a tool that give you higher margin for error so that you can hit harder without making errors, allows you to hit to bigger targets and still trouble opponents, allows you to hit better angles to expand the court, allows you to change depth/pace without giving easy balls etc. Generally the better players hit hard with a lot of spin for their level and utilize both topspin and slice depending on which troubles their opponent more.

 

[socallefty]

My post above is about singles and I noticed that you play mostly doubles. I don’t hit too many ground strokes in doubles as I come to the net quickly. If I hit returns or ground strokes, I use topspin to hit dipping shots to trouble opponents at the net, slice (especially inside out) to hit short angles or give low, dipping volleys, flatter shots to hit winners into big/open gaps, hard topspin for passing shots into small spaces, deeper topspin if opponents stay back, topspin lobs if it is an offensive lob, slice lob if it is a defensive lob etc. Sometimes, hitting slower topspin gives me more time to approach the net than harder shots, but I still have to hit it with enough pace or depth to trouble the opponent and keep the rally neutral or in my favor.

Doubles is about choosing the location of target spots carefully even more than pace or spin - this is true for serves and returns also. At the baseline, remember that you can win points by setting up your net partner and you don’t have to be a baseline ‘hero’ to win the point on your own.

 

[johnmccabe]

My post above is about singles and I noticed that you play mostly doubles. I don’t hit too many ground strokes in doubles as I come to the net quickly. If I hit returns or ground strokes, I use topspin to hit dipping shots to trouble opponents at the net, slice (especially inside out) to hit short angles or give low, dipping volleys, flatter shots to hit winners into big/open gaps, hard topspin for passing shots into small spaces, deeper topspin if opponents stay back, topspin lobs if it is an offensive lob, slice lob if it is a defensive lob etc. Sometimes, hitting slower topspin gives me more time to approach the net than harder shots, but I still have to hit it with enough pace or depth to trouble the opponent and keep the rally neutral or in my favor.

Doubles is about choosing the location of target spots carefully even more than pace or spin - this is true for serves and returns also. At the baseline, remember that you can win points by setting up your net partner and you don’t have to be a baseline ‘hero’ to win the point on your own.

All great tips. Very much appreciated!!!

 

[johnmccabe]

slice (especially inside out) to hit short angles or give low, dipping volleys

Can you elaborate a little on this? Lefty forehand slice inside out on the deuce court for short angle?

 

[socallefty]

slice (especially inside out) to hit short angles or give low, dipping volleys

Can you elaborate a little on this? Lefty forehand slice inside out on the deuce court for short angle?

I’m a lefty who usually plays ad. So, I hit inside-out BH slices into the opposite doubles alley or if the opponent S/Vs, return slice dippers to their feet. I don’t slice my FH in doubles - in singles, I might rarely hit a FH slice drop shot if the opponent has been pushed far back or a FH-slice squash-type shot if stretched out wide on defense. When I hit slice in doubles, it still has to have enough pace and be low or be far enough away so that the net player is not tempted to poach it.

 

[Cashman]

If you are a 3.5 I would just hit whatever shot is most reliably deep and in the court

 

[Dartagnan64]

Since I can’t really overpower most fit tennis players, Learning to user different shots to trouble opponents is a key strategy in my game. What I’ve found works generally well at the 3.5-4.0 level is to keep the bounces low into the FH corner and the bounces high into the BH corner.

Work on loopier topspin shots into the BH corner. Work on slice or flatter shots into the FH corner. You’ll get a lot of errors ands short balls with these kinds of shots. Mixing up deep to short often works well at this level. Players are better at moving side to side than back to front.

 

[Moon Shooter]

Players vary as to what they have an easy time or a hard time with. I just try to pay attention to that. It is harder for me to learn that in doubles as opposed to singles. (unless I have played the opponents before)

But even in doubles you can learn what serves cause them more problems and which serves they love to get. I have played doubles games where I know my opponent will kill my second serve if they know it is coming. This will often happen when my first serves are off so they get quite a few of them and learn to nail them. So what I started doing was hit a hard second serve as my first serve when they are back and not expecting it - this also gave me more chance of getting my first serve in. That way I could at get the point going on at least even terms.

Other players never seem to be able to take full advantage of my second serve so I have more of a free hand with my first serve.

 

[mucat]

I wouldn't worry about spin variety in 3.5 doubles. Just do steady xcourt rally to avoid the net player and throw in occasionally DTL dipping passing shot or topspin lobs when opportunities arrive, aim at the weaker player, etc.

 

[BallChaser]

Hit flat to steal time from the opponent. For instance, after you hit angle and the opponent doesn't have much time to recover, hit on the rise flat fast so that the opponent doesn't have time to come back.

 

[OnTheLine]

Having a tool and knowing when to use it is definitely about being match hardened. Until you have a lot of matches under your belt it will more mental effort.

A lot depends on how you are evaluating your opponent during the match.
I was playing a singles match against a solid opponent yesterday. (she a 4.0C me a 3.5C). She had a very solid serve and her returns were hard, heavy topspin and deep. It took until we were at 2-2 in first set for me to have enough information to change what I was doing.
I switched from my regular pattern: topspin to her backhand, mid court slice approach down the line
to
Offpace slice to her forehand .... and then the point was over ... she hated that shot. So I kept giving it to her as often as possible.
Won 6-2; 6-1

In general ... I like top spin ground strokes, slice approach shots (down the line in singles)

Same thing in doubles ... figure out what the opponents hate ... do that.
At the 3.5 level or 7.0 mixed ... few men or women can reliable control the return off a well executed slice. I am not talking about a floaty slice .. a low sticky slice.

But overall in doubles placement is worth a great deal more than the selected shot itself. A great top spin shot that hits at about the service line is no where near as good as a sharply angled flat shot or almost any shot that hits the T or any shot that is deep near the baseline.

 

[Cindysphinx]

It's a trick question.

The answer is, "Hit whatever shot you can execute in the moment."

If you have more than a couple of options -- meaning you own the shot and execute it consistently against anyone -- then I agree with OnTheLine. Watch what your opponent struggles with, and hit that.

It's so weird. Some ladies in doubles become as helpless as a newborn if you hit your return as a short angle slice. That's one of my favorite "Oh, lordy, we're losing" shots. It's nice to have to turn things around.

 

[HBK4life]

I play pretty close to the baseline. Two handed backhand. If a ball comes hard and pretty deep I try to redirect with a flat shot. Off speed balls I hit back with topspin.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's so weird. Some ladies in doubles become as helpless as a newborn if you hit your return as a short angle slice. That's one of my favorite "Oh, lordy, we're losing" shots. It's nice to have to turn things around.

One of my MXDs matches went like that: lost the first set 0-6 because the guy was good at hitting CC short angle slice winners. My partner wasn't quick enough to react but not comfortable enough to move well inside the BL.

I suggested switching to Aussie and we ended up winning the match. I felt like Annacone.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

To provide context, I recently started to play 7.0 mixed doubles and 3.5 men's double. I have good strokes, can hit heavy deep top spin and some penetrating knife slice, but without enough consistency in match situations yet. My rarely hit flat groundstroke. I think one of my problems is I don't have a good understanding about when to mix in the right amount of spin in matches.

Do you guys have any suggestions on how much spin vs drive you mix into a shot? everything is appreciated. It can be situation specific. It can be some broad brush general guidance that may not apply on every single shot.

Do what works: if what you're doing is winning the majority of the points, why change? In other words, why feel the need to vary your spin?

I certainly wouldn't recommend obsessing over spin for every shot; that's too much thinking and will more likely lead to more errors.

if you have a specific problem you want to solve, then it might be handy to look at spin [and depth, and height, and power, and timing, etc]. For example, I have a tendency to hit my FH too flat. If I'm ON, I can make it work. If I'm not, I hit too many into the net. When I catch myself doing that, I try to add shape [more spin and less power for a higher trajectory] to give myself more margin of error and hopefully fewer UEs.

I don't, as a matter of course, think about varying the spin of every shot.

 

[vandre]

if teeing off on the 2nd serve isn't paying the dividends you want, a play i like to use is to chip the 2nd serve return and come in behind it. if you're going to do this:
1. hit your return so that the net player has no play on it (sometimes the net player will inadvertently help you out by backing off the net on the 2nd serve).
2. slice it nasty (make it skid); you don't want it to sit up.

 

[johnmccabe]

Do what works: if what you're doing is winning the majority of the points, why change? In other words, why feel the need to vary your spin?

I certainly wouldn't recommend obsessing over spin for every shot; that's too much thinking and will more likely lead to more errors.

if you have a specific problem you want to solve, then it might be handy to look at spin [and depth, and height, and power, and timing, etc]. For example, I have a tendency to hit my FH too flat. If I'm ON, I can make it work. If I'm not, I hit too many into the net. When I catch myself doing that, I try to add shape [more spin and less power for a higher trajectory] to give myself more margin of error and hopefully fewer UEs.

I don't, as a matter of course, think about varying the spin of every shot.

I'm just trying to learn shot selection. Some situations are easier to decide with my limited understanding. for example, when to hit flat vs topspin? If incoming ball is short and high, I should try to hit flat to put it away. If incoming ball is short and low, I should use topspin to lift it over the net and cannot hit through the ball too much. but what if ball comes relatively deep and high? how to decide whether to back up and hit a heavy topspin or hit on the rise with more flat? or maybe full swing heavy topspin when there is more time to comfortably set up vs. smaller swing more flat/block when in trouble? How about slice? When should I swing harder for a knife slice vs. when to use small swing, volley type of backhand slice ?

 

[johnmccabe]

if teeing off on the 2nd serve isn't paying the dividends you want, a play i like to use is to chip the 2nd serve return and come in behind it. if you're going to do this:
1. hit your return so that the net player has no play on it (sometimes the net player will inadvertently help you out by backing off the net on the 2nd serve).
2. slice it nasty (make it skid); you don't want it to sit up.

I still have to learn how to come to the net. never trained how to hit the first volley after moving forward from baseline.

my backhand slice can be quite nasty and skidding in practice, but I can't consistently slice all kinds of incoming ball with good controls on height and placement especially in doubles. I think part of the problem in my slice is adjusting how much to swing vertically down vs. swinging forward, depending on the incoming ball.

Basically, I think I only learned the mechanics of strokes, but don't know how to read incoming balls and adjust the strokes.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I'm just trying to learn shot selection. Some situations are easier to decide with my limited understanding. for example, when to hit flat vs topspin? If incoming ball is short and high, I should try to hit flat to put it away. If incoming ball is short and low, I should use topspin to lift it over the net and cannot hit through the ball too much. but what if ball comes relatively deep and high? how to decide whether to back up and hit a heavy topspin or hit on the rise with more flat? or maybe full swing heavy topspin when there is more time to comfortably set up vs. smaller swing more flat/block when in trouble? How about slice? When should I swing harder for a knife slice vs. when to use small swing, volley type of backhand slice ?

I don't know if there is a one-size-fits-all "best" answer. You need to experiment and see what works best for you. I, for example, prefer to step in and take the ball on the rise rather than back up and take it on the decline. But that's not to say my preference is better.

I go for a more biting slice when I'm hitting an approach and want to make things difficult for my opponent to hit a good passer. But then my error rate also will go up. It's a tradeoff. The more defensive I am, the more likely I'll be less aggressive with the slice.

The thing is that I don't consciously think much about these decisions; I've experienced enough of these scenarios that I usually don't have to. And there are too many scenarios to try and keep in mind. Maybe just pick 3 and work on those until they are more or less ingrained and that will cover a good 70-80% of the scenarios.

 

[johnmccabe]

Having a tool and knowing when to use it is definitely about being match hardened. Until you have a lot of matches under your belt it will more mental effort.

A lot depends on how you are evaluating your opponent during the match.
I was playing a singles match against a solid opponent yesterday. (she a 4.0C me a 3.5C). She had a very solid serve and her returns were hard, heavy topspin and deep. It took until we were at 2-2 in first set for me to have enough information to change what I was doing.
I switched from my regular pattern: topspin to her backhand, mid court slice approach down the line
to
Offpace slice to her forehand .... and then the point was over ... she hated that shot. So I kept giving it to her as often as possible.
Won 6-2; 6-1

In general ... I like top spin ground strokes, slice approach shots (down the line in singles)

Same thing in doubles ... figure out what the opponents hate ... do that.
At the 3.5 level or 7.0 mixed ... few men or women can reliable control the return off a well executed slice. I am not talking about a floaty slice .. a low sticky slice.

But overall in doubles placement is worth a great deal more than the selected shot itself. A great top spin shot that hits at about the service line is no where near as good as a sharply angled flat shot or almost any shot that hits the T or any shot that is deep near the baseline.

When I have to worry about angle in doubles, I often can't control height and depth. if I tell myself this slice must go crosscourt, I often hit it deep but a bit floaty. If I try to keep my slice heavy and low, then I often hit it too close to the net player. It's very obvious with my backhand strokes. My forehand is a little better in this regard. Maybe my problem is not just shot selection, but the technique itself.

 

[johnmccabe]

I wouldn't worry about spin variety in 3.5 doubles. Just do steady xcourt rally to avoid the net player and throw in occasionally DTL dipping passing shot or topspin lobs when opportunities arrive, aim at the weaker player, etc.

deep down I know this is very true. Just never been able to tame my mind to stick to this strategy for more than 3 games in a row....

 

[vandre]

I still have to learn how to come to the net. never trained how to hit the first volley after moving forward from baseline.

my backhand slice can be quite nasty and skidding in practice, but I can't consistently slice all kinds of incoming ball with good controls on height and placement especially in doubles. I think part of the problem in my slice is adjusting how much to swing vertically down vs. swinging forward, depending on the incoming ball.

Basically, I think I only learned the mechanics of strokes, but don't know how to read incoming balls and adjust the strokes.

you'll get if figured out. doubles is tricky and the targets are much smaller than singles even though the court is slightly larger.