Slice Serve Confusion: Coach said to "Lead with the edge"

[Raul_SJ]

As shown in this coaching video from fuzzy yellow balls, the strings are facing the same direction at contact for both a flat and slice serve:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=F...v=W9A9G8nLlYE&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s

"When we play the videos forward from the “L position” and freeze them at contact, the other key thing to note is that despite the fact that I’m swinging in different directions, my tennis racket strings are still facing the same direction at contact. What generates side spin on the tennis ball is the direction my strings move across the ball at contact, NOT the direction my strings are facing at contact."

Given the above, I am not sure what my coach at a recent clinic means when he said to "lead with the edge on the slice serve".

Since I am using a continental grip for both the flat and slice serve, I believe that I am always "leading with the edge" on both the flat and slice serve.

I am confused on this "leading with the edge" coaching instruction.

 

[LeeD]

Different way of saying the same thing.
Vid leads with the edge, if you take into account your SWING PATH, which is not the same as a flat serve.
Given the swing path of the slice serve, if you flatten your rackethead, the ball will be hit flat and out to the left in the vids example.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You are on the right track. Question what you are told until it becomes clear.

I am seeing the same variations in serve descriptions. Complicating the issue, the racket is rotating very rapidly at impact.

Find high speed videos such as this -

https://vimeo.com/27528347

This racket speed acceleration occurs over 0.03 seconds and is too fast to observe in standard video. This 240 fps video gets 7 frames but a standard 30 fps video would get just one and most standard cameras have too much motion blur.

The racket head speed is developed mostly by internal shoulder rotation as seen by the rapid rotation of the bones of the elbow. Pronation is a term for forearm arm rotation and is seen in videos by the angular change between the elbow and wrist bones. I can't find pronation just before impact in high speed videos. The edge of the racket should face up to the ball early in the motion around the time of the leg thrust well before the arm gets up, ready to axially rotate. See the video for this edge orientation as the stroke develops.

I am studying the issue also and don't have an answer as to exactly where the racket faces at impact. My belief is that to get a pure slice the racket most often goes across the back of the ball. A slice would also occur with the racket at some angle, edge more forward hitting the right side. Very likely both techniques are effective. The angle of edge lead is probably very limited at impact. The the lack of description in oral communication is a problem. So its 'Lead with the edge' with a large angle at the proper time leading up to impact but not so much 'lead with the edge' at impact. What angle of 'lead with the edge' at impact is the question. ?

My serve is much smoother when I lead with the edge at the lower position and also when the handle of my racket points approximately at the ball before raising my arm. Study videos.

An important point to realize is that the angle of the racket face at impact completely determines the spot on the ball that is contacted. If the right edge is slightly forward at impact the right side of the ball will be contacted. Judge for yourself the angle of the racket face at impact in the video.

I have hit good slice serves of lower pace hitting across the very back of the ball with a square-on racket face that contacts the center back of the ball. I've also hit with an angled racket that contacts the right side of the ball (RH server). However, I have not been able to learn and practice enough internal shoulder rotation to get the pace up so I'm not sure what the end- product slice technique should be when the racket head speed is much higher.

Study some videos and research/search internal shoulder rotation on this forum and the internet.

 

[ace_pace]

I think your coach means that you hit the ball, while leading with the edge. Not too much, the racket face still needs to be fairly open.

 

[Raul_SJ]

You are on the right track. Question what you are told until it becomes clear.

I am seeing the same variations in serve descriptions. Complicating the issue, the racket is rotating very rapidly at impact.

Find high speed videos such as this -

https://vimeo.com/27528347

Thanks. I am having trouble finding high frame rate videos for slice serve.

I found one pretty good one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLU5PB44tc&feature=player_detailpage#t=9s

But I wish I had one of a flat serve to compare the differences at the moment of contact.

 

[LeeD]

Forget the vid idea.
YOU, hit a flat serve with a conti grip.
Now slice one with the same grip, BUT, you toss goes farther off to your right if you're a rightie.
FEEL how much spin you added, and how much pace you took off with the slice serve.
USUALLY, if you can hit 100mph flat serves, your first few slices will be going around 65mph, because your spin absorbed your swing.
FEEL is what allows you to slice a serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This video analyzes in detail the edge on timing. But the serves look more like flat serves for the most part. I can hardly ever tell the type serve without seeing the ball spin or trajectory curve and then I'm still not certain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhRxnuV9BTY&feature=plcp

Other Tennisoxygen videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/xstf/videos?view=0

There are two important things lacking in this otherwise excellent video analysis.

1) He often uses the term 'pronation' incorrectly, in the old tennis tradition, not in agreement with the correct kinesiology terms. (It takes about 1/2 hour to search the terms pronation & internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and nail down the term definitions and really understand the muscle joint motions.) Leading up to impact ISR dominates and in the follow through after impact considerable pronation is observable. There is also a little pronation considerably earlier in the serve according to some biomechanics research.

2) To utilize the ISR the racket must be held at an angle which changes as the upper arm axially turns, ISR. You can see this angle very clearly in the video at time 5:07 (Safin?). The rear camera view is best to show it. You can do your own stop-action on a DVR and occasionally see (if motion blur is small) that the pros have this angle leading up to impact. Very, very important angle used by all the pro servers. See Toly thread- http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610

In general, the video analyses also hardly ever mention the muscles that produce the motions unless they are obvious, such as leg thrust, etc.................

 

[Raul_SJ]

Forget the vid idea.
YOU, hit a flat serve with a conti grip.
Now slice one with the same grip, BUT, you toss goes farther off to your right if you're a rightie.
FEEL how much spin you added, and how much pace you took off with the slice serve.
USUALLY, if you can hit 100mph flat serves, your first few slices will be going around 65mph, because your spin absorbed your swing.
FEEL is what allows you to slice a serve.

I toss to the right and try to vary the swing path so that I am brushing across the ball and racquet is moving towards the right net post, but the ball is going flat...

Sometimes, I get a "click" sound and the speed comes down ... I think that's what I need to strive for.

I am finding the slice serve to be harder to learn than the flat serve.

 

[LeeD]

Yes, work on your serves.
A fast flat serve might go 100mph.
A fast slice serve by the same guy, with the same swing, will slow down about 30% or more.

 

[TennisDawg]

This question on pronation on slice or topspin serves is somewhat of a dilemma for me. I understand and can do pronation on flat serves. I can hit fairly massive spin serves without thinking of pronation. I just slice at 3 to 9 oclock and 6 to 12 oclock, it's when I started thinking of pronation for spin serves that I have the dilemma. When I learned to play their was not much talk of pronation it was just snap your wrist and carve through the ball for spin serves.
To me it's counterintuitive to try and execute a spin serve while thinking or trying to pronate.