The slice serve (on edge)

jga111

Hall of Fame
I have spent ages working out my mechanics from start to finish on the service with respect to racket drop through to hitting the ball on edge. Finally nailed it. (Only taken me a a couple of years but hey what’s the rush when you’re already a veteran)

I am now looking for words out there that can help me visualise and feel how a slice serve with on edge will feel. I’ve seen videos on you tube but still I’m not really sure how to go about this in broken down detail.

Strange question maybe, but I never had issues with slice serve before until I changed my serve.

Thanks
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Can you define what the words "edge on" mean?

Can you show "edge on" in a high speed video from the internet that shows how the racket and ball move around impact?
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
Can you define what the words "edge on" mean?

Can you show "edge on" in a high speed video from the internet that shows how the racket and ball move around impact?
Chas how can you not know what I mean, you’ve been writing “on edge/edge on” serve posts since I was in my nappies
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Chas how can you not know what I mean, you’ve been writing “on edge/edge on” serve posts since I was in my nappies
There is only one instant - during the Big L Position - where the racket head can be caught in high speed video where it is seen "edge on" to the ball. That position is one checkpoint for the high level serve. If the racket face is seen "face to the sky" at Big L position it is not a high level serve and is likely to be a Waiter's Tray serve. If you find that I used "edge on" in some other way on the serve, please quote my post.

Also, many times when I see that someone has written 'go at the ball and at the last second before impact rotate the racket head', another misconception, I point out that view also does not match high speed video evidence.

You can hit a serve or overhead by going at the ball 'edge on' without ISR but that does not sound like a high level technique. This is what the instructional video shows. That shot works. But the instructional video does not show a high level technique involving internal shoulder rotation (ISR). They even say that their "slice serve" is avoiding "pronation", a term that is still often used by mistake for internal shoulder rotation.

Here is a high level slice serve with ISR.

For single frame on Vimeo, go full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY and press the ARROW KEYS.

I've had the same misconceptions as you for decades!
 
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BetaServe

Professional
There is only one instant - during the Big L position - where the racket can be caught in high speed video where it is seen "edge on" to the ball. That position is one checkpoint for the high level serve. If the racket face is seen "face to the sky" at Big L position it is not a high level serve and is likely to be a Waiter's Tray serve. If you find that I used "edge on" in some other way on the serve, please quote my post.

Also, many times when I see that someone has written 'go at the ball and at the last second before impact rotate the racket head', another misconception, I point out that it also does not match high speed video evidence.

You can hit a serve or overhead by going at the ball 'edge on' but that does not sound like a high level technique without ISR. This is what the instructional video shows. That shot works. But the instructional video does not show a high level technique involving internal shoulder rotation (ISR).

Here is a high level slice serve with ISR.

For single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and press the ARROW KEYS.
Do you have a footage of high level Flat serve (of the same server)?
 

Dan R

Professional
There is only one instant - during the Big L Position - where the racket head can be caught in high speed video where it is seen "edge on" to the ball. That position is one checkpoint for the high level serve. If the racket face is seen "face to the sky" at Big L position it is not a high level serve and is likely to be a Waiter's Tray serve. If you find that I used "edge on" in some other way on the serve, please quote my post.

Also, many times when I see that someone has written 'go at the ball and at the last second before impact rotate the racket head', another misconception, I point out that it also does not match high speed video evidence.

You can hit a serve or overhead by going at the ball 'edge on' but that does not sound like a high level technique without ISR. This is what the instructional video shows. That shot works. But the instructional video does not show a high level technique involving internal shoulder rotation (ISR). They even say that the serve is avoiding "pronation", a term that is still often used by mistake for internal shoulder rotation.

Here is a high level slice serve with ISR.

For single frame on Vimeo, go full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY and press the ARROW KEYS.

I've had the same misconceptions as you for decades!
This video is excellent (as are the others in this series). In this case if you go full screen you can see the logo on the ball just prior to impact and how it spins afterwords to see the actual direction of spin on the ball (looks like from 8:30-2:30).
 

Digital Atheist

Professional
This is great

I've found some of their other videos to be useful, but what they are suggesting above is diametrically opposed to every good online reference and every good pro server I've seen. Of course I haven't seen them all, so maybe there are some renowned coaches out there recommending supination for slice serves. But take a look at the video @Chas Tennis posted - very pronounced pronation after contact.



Anyone truly interested in this can do what Sergei suggests and go look at Federer, Isner, Raonic, Roddick, Sampras, Wawrinka, Serena etc.

Here's Taylor Fritz who has a decent serve.


Pause and frame advance the very first serve in that video just before contact (using . and ,) for another clear example.
 
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jga111

Hall of Fame
These videos are terrific. What I have learned:

- You can slice using supination or pronation.
- Supination is the more natural of the two and the easiest to comprehend.
- Pronation is the more advanced and more unnatural.
- Pronation is more effective due to the generated RHS during the process.

My issue with the slice when starting this thread was that once i was in the racket drop position and swinging up with “edge on” I wasn’t sure how to go about the slice. Now I know there are two options. And the supination one for me is the easiest to transition to but I’ll be working on the probation technique also...

Thank you all for your input, this has actually been really helpful
 

kramer woodie

Professional
One thing to take in to consideration. The rec level slice using supination, the ball travels much slower and in a flatter plain making it easier to return,
unless the slice is extreme really pulling the opponent wide.

The pronated type slice has much more velocity and slides off the court quicker. It does not slide as far slowly, instead breaks away rather quickly.
Using pronation is the signature of higher level playing technique. Plus, it can be used down the tee to appear being out, but dropping slightly inside
at the bounce. Watch Fed use a pronated slice down the tee, his opponents shake their head and walk up to look at the mark before they will believe
the ball landed in. Can also be used in the add court to hook in to the opponents backhand side.

Aloha
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
I’ve just seen where Nadal supinates his slice serve down the T on the deuce side.

I have also seen Federer supinating on deuce side.

These guys clearly mix it up.

Trying to find a video with Nadal pronating slice down the T - or anyone for that matter...if you can find any?..
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I’ve just seen where Nadal supinates his slice serve down the T on the deuce side.

I have also seen Federer supinating on deuce side.

These guys clearly mix it up.

Trying to find a video with Nadal pronating slice down the T - or anyone for that matter...if you can find any?..
Please post the links. All servers pronate and supinated at various times during the service motion. When do you mean, at impact?

Clear high speed video is required. At 240 fps a 100 MPH object moves 7" between frames. At 30 fps it moves 59".
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
Please post the links. All servers pronate and supinated at various times during the service motion. When do you mean, at impact?

Clear high speed video is required. At 240 fps a 100 MPH object moves 7" between frames. At 30 fps it moves 59".
On 14s. Looks like supination to me

 

jga111

Hall of Fame
I just see a very blurry serve at 13 sec.

The close up shows pronation. 9 sec.
The finish position shows supination with racket face up (not side of fence as typically case with pronated serve). But maybe you are right - is it a case that he pronates then supinates?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The finish position shows supination with racket face up (not side of fence as typically case with pronated serve). But maybe you are right - is it a case that he pronates then supinates?
Players can vary how they do the follow through, especially the late follow through. There also may be affects from where the ball hits on the racket face.

The 'fully pronated' racket to the side fence is probably a good sign but it is not necessary or sufficient to indicate a high level serve.

In contrast, approaching impact there is much less variation.
 
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