schmke
Legend
My simulation had NC clear favorite for the 4.5 so they came through as expected. MS was a surprise for 3.5 by the numbers.
Southern's 18 Sectionals...
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FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Don't feel too bad schmke, if it's Jackson, they often win in MS and there isn't a lot of competition to play in the state, probably mutes the results as far as ratings. I'm assuming it's Jackson MS in 3.5
schmke
Legend
Oh, I don't feel bad at all. Predictions based on ratings are percentages, they will never be right all the time. And yes, small areas can live in their own pocket and particularly if a team plays just one or two teams over and over in the regular season, the ratings can't be representative for comparison with other areas. It is part of what makes predicting and seeing what happens fun and exciting. The game is played on the court by players after all, not by a computer doing simulations.
When someone told me it was MS in the finals, I instantly assumed it was Jackson. Wasn't surprised to see a common name on the roster I've seen over and over since 2016.
schmke
Legend
They played in a seven team flight, so not small. But as of now, only them and one other team have a full roster average over 3.25. In fact, most teams have some 3.0s rostered but even looking at just the 3.5s on each team, just them and one other have an average over 3.25. So not strong competition which can help prevent representative ratings.
Their best two players were both self-rates last year, a 3.0S that was bumped up to 3.5 and had played 3.0 and 3.5 and should have been DQ'd from 3.0 but wasn't, and a 3.5S that was just a strong 3.5 at year-end. No obvious tanking from either.
They have a few others that appealed down from 4.0 this year or in 2020/2021, or had been 4.0C but had to self-rate due to expired ratings and were allowed to appeal their self-rate down.
The two doubles courts LA lost were extremely close. NC S1 must be a very serious player.
I see that he's undefeated at 5.0. Hmm.
from personal experience, he has no business playing at the 4.5 level. should have never had his appeal granted from last year.
I am curious first how he was able to appeal down to 4.5 after losing only 1 match last year and 2nd how was he not DQ'ed this year. NC must allow appeals all over, makes no sense
Ironically he beat a player 7-5, 7-6 who did get disqualified to 5.0. Love when that happens.
Ah, but I see his 5.0 matches were all singles league. Those don't count toward ratings in Southern.
schmke
Legend
My ratings had him as a bump up to 5.0 last year, but arguably just close enough to appeal down. A big reason for this is that on average he played mid-level 4.5s, and when he played doubles he played with strong partners. So he was expected to win.
This year, yeah, he is clearly well into 5.0 range. I didn't show him at a real risk of a DQ, well, until this weekend. The 5.0D is perhaps coming after they wrap up the weekend and check for strikes, it is close.
So to clear up all of your thoughts around NC I was there playing 4.5, NC had two singles guys that had no business in 4.5, one played singles the entire time and the other alternated to doubles with a weak player to try to hide his rating(This one also clearly tanked to TN singles player once they were in).
I am not one to complain about sandbagging and actually enjoy the higher competition, but i was absolutely shocked at the level of those two players. They were as good as current lower end D2 players, Its amazing that the computer did not pick them up for DQ prior to this as it looks like they have not even tried to hide their level before this past weekend.
I am not one to complain about sandbagging and actually enjoy the higher competition, but i was absolutely shocked at the level of those two players. They were as good as current lower end D2 players, Its amazing that the computer did not pick them up for DQ prior to this as it looks like they have not even tried to hide their level before this past weekend.
schmke
Legend
The one that played only singles is a 4.5C, so not subject to strikes/DQ. I commented on the other above.
schmke
Legend
We must be looking at different players then.
CM played 2S four times this weekend and is a 2021 year-end 4.5C. Is this not the singles only player you were referring to? Everyone else that played singles also played doubles.
The 4.5A is QC that played doubles and singles and I have as their highest rated player and perhaps at risk of DQ after the weekend of play.
They do have self-rates, but one played doubles and had a loss to GA, while the other (DY) played singles and doubles and had two close/match tie-break wins and did have the loss to TN. Perhaps this is one you are referring to? He had several match tie-break wins at States too which contributed to his rating not being too high. Perhaps he was managing his rating in these matches, but I show little risk of strikes, likely just one if any from the regular season.
Vox Rationis
Professional
hes talking about QC and DY. He’s calling QC the singles only guy since that’s his main purpose on the team.
I was talking about Yu=Singles & Doubles guy and Carmean=Singles guy (Didnt know he played doubles)
From playing and viewing everyone else on their team there is no one else too far out of level. But those two guys have absolutely no business playing 4.5, TR has Yu at a 4.70 and thats before sectionals.
Vox Rationis
Professional
My guess is they both focus on singles at nationals (assuming they’re eligible) and don’t drop a set the entire weekend. What Carmean did last year at sectionals to a guy who ended up bageling people at nationals (Kuo from KY; they finished as runner ups) wouldn’t even be fair for 5.0 let alone 4.5 . And from what I hear about Yu he has potential that has yet to be revealed. I think they’ve tried to hide him until he could be eligible for nationals.
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Carmean appears to be better, had a guy on my team press Yu him and he appeared actually frustrated.
But Yu clearly tanked to TN so who knows if he was acting or not.
The short sets really wrecked the whole tournament, best part is it only rained for one hour on Saturday.......USTA officials are morons.
But Yu clearly tanked to TN so who knows if he was acting or not.
The short sets really wrecked the whole tournament, best part is it only rained for one hour on Saturday.......USTA officials are morons.
Vox Rationis
Professional
Yeah but wasn’t the guy on your team an out of level ringer too?? If it’s the team I’m thinking of he probably came in to sectionals with one of the highest ratings out of everyone.
Also to clarify, i am not mad, just shocked those two guys havnt caught a DQ based on TR and 5.0 league play.
I think this is exactly how every team justifies their out of level ringers...
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
This is some new information, I used to think 4.5 was more insulated from sandbagging based on my experiences in Texas, my naïve thinking was 4.0 was where the sandbagging lives and 4.5 is relatively safe from it. I mean most of the 4.0 self-raters are 5.0 and 4.5 players. It's hard to imagine someone "too good", it's all a judgment call, but to be that good as a legit no question 5.0 at tennis and still care about winning out of level usta. The only ones I know that are for sure 5.0 and 5.5 had big success at college, play open and occasionally lift a finger to form 1 mixed team for fun or maybe dabble in usta team tennis every other year. Fascinating stuff. I always thought there would be a level of tennis ability where no one at that level would enjoy a sure thing, where they would be bored by easy wins. Guess not quite for everyone.
I wouldnt say it was that bad, im not talking D1 here. These guys are more like inform/current lower end D2 players. Which is a level I have yet to see in 4.5, generally the higher end for 4.5 is ex d2 players in their late 20s-mid 30s who probably drink alittle too much.
Vox Rationis
Professional
Was thinking GA
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Aha, that's not bad at all, 4.0 is still then the sweetspot.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Imagine being a 5.0 or 5.5 player, but you never got that USTA trophy - playing your whole life with nothing to show for it.
schmke
Legend
What some 4.5/5.0 level players say is they don't want to be a 5.0 as there are limited playing opportunities and they would effectively be unable to play USTA League in some areas as a 5.0, and so they justify appealing down or not going all out all the time in order to be able to keep playing.
The issue is that it is sort of self-fulfilling in that by managing their rating, they are in fact the reason there aren't enough 5.0s. If they simply all did their best and were bumped up to 5.0 as a group, perhaps there would be critical mass for a 5.0 flight. And no, they wouldn't get to feast on the true 4.5s anymore to satisfy their desire to win, but they'd be playing the other "4.5/5.0" guys that were bumped up with them so they'd be competitive matches and very well could still go to Nationals on an 18+ 5.0 team since there aren't a lot of them so the chances of winning their area/district/state/section are higher just due to the numbers.
The issue is that it is sort of self-fulfilling in that by managing their rating, they are in fact the reason there aren't enough 5.0s. If they simply all did their best and were bumped up to 5.0 as a group, perhaps there would be critical mass for a 5.0 flight. And no, they wouldn't get to feast on the true 4.5s anymore to satisfy their desire to win, but they'd be playing the other "4.5/5.0" guys that were bumped up with them so they'd be competitive matches and very well could still go to Nationals on an 18+ 5.0 team since there aren't a lot of them so the chances of winning their area/district/state/section are higher just due to the numbers.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
i was on the receiving end of one of these lashings.
had no business being there imo. it is what it is.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
High 4.5 and low 5.0 players are not gods of mount Olympus, immune to human nature. They are, in fact, merely a little bit better at tennis than the average 4.5 player. They are still very much human, and still very much like winning sectionals.
i was on the receiving end of one of these lashings.
Did you play in the GA match? Curious if you're the guy who played J and if so, how he compared.
I see the other ringer discussed on here absolutely smacked down a clear 5.0 player from GA 6-0 in the first set...
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
i did not. i was watching that match though. just noticed in tennis link that match is incorrect. it went 3 sets. 10-7 in third set for J from GA. high end 4.5 imo. very nice game he had.Did you play in the GA match? Curious if you're the guy who played J and if so, how he compared.
I see the other ringer discussed on here absolutely smacked down a clear 5.0 player from GA 6-0 in the first set...
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
i did witness one of the worst. no. the worst line call ever.
it was a female semi final round match (not disclosing the state or individual). Courts are tied and its coming down to a singles court. its in a third set at 9-6 or 9-7 i cant recall which one.
i would say there were 40 people watching - teammates, other states watching the semis, randoms, etc.
rally ensues for about 10 shots then this ball lands a foot (no joke) inside the line of the lady who is up 9-7. OUT she yells.
the WHOLE crowd is furious and groans. ive never seen a the entire crowd ALL agree and could see it all clearly the same. it was blatantly cheating.
Luckily there was an official monitoring the match. he was also up in the stands with us watching. The crowd groans and he confronts the players and overturns the call. Point to the other lady.
We heard the same lady did the exact same thing on match point in another match when the courts were tied, this time without an official. They lost the match and were out of the tournament.
How do you walk off the court after such an action? i dont know one could be proud? im trying to erase this memory actually.
it was a female semi final round match (not disclosing the state or individual). Courts are tied and its coming down to a singles court. its in a third set at 9-6 or 9-7 i cant recall which one.
i would say there were 40 people watching - teammates, other states watching the semis, randoms, etc.
rally ensues for about 10 shots then this ball lands a foot (no joke) inside the line of the lady who is up 9-7. OUT she yells.
the WHOLE crowd is furious and groans. ive never seen a the entire crowd ALL agree and could see it all clearly the same. it was blatantly cheating.
Luckily there was an official monitoring the match. he was also up in the stands with us watching. The crowd groans and he confronts the players and overturns the call. Point to the other lady.
We heard the same lady did the exact same thing on match point in another match when the courts were tied, this time without an official. They lost the match and were out of the tournament.
How do you walk off the court after such an action? i dont know one could be proud? im trying to erase this memory actually.
Vox Rationis
Professional
I’ve seen this in action before. A group of 5.0s worked hard to form 3 full teams so they could play out a regular season. The result? USTA SC told them they don’t get to play a regular season and everyone will just go straight to districts instead to play for one weekend. USTA does almost nothing to help 5.0s get playing time. It truly is a death sentence most of the time.
Wow we must have been right next to each other, I saw that as well.
I was the doubles line that went on that court after that horrible line call.
Sugar creek should be banned from all USTA, their men are the exact same way.
Assuming this was indoors, wouldnt be surprised if sugar creek did this twice.
Did you play in the GA match? Curious if you're the guy who played J and if so, how he compared.
I see the other ringer discussed on here absolutely smacked down a clear 5.0 player from GA 6-0 in the first set...
J is not the same caliber as that player, he is a grinder so he was able to make it close at the end but I imagine it would have been much more lopsided without shortened sets.
Are you talking about the NC-GA matchup?
Please tell me this was at the 3.5 level.
I think we're talking about a different J guy, but if you're talking about DY vs. JP, that's absurd. That would make the NC a guy a 5.5 because JP is clearly a 5.0 with little business himself to be playing 4.5.
This is 4.5, im talking 4.5.
And yes im talking JP was clearly outgunned and their other guy might have even been better.
The bad line call was 4.5?
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
So I googled Sugar Creek, is that the team location, seems like two small towns, an Ohio and a MS one. 2.5. Yikes. I don't know how, but for my entire adult life I never knew 2.5 existed. Every beginner I met or saw join a club or facility in Dallas just started at 3.0. Not interesting to anyone else, but still confuses the hell out of me. I mean 2.5 does exist in TX, but I never met one, ever until going out of state for playing.
Arkansas has a 2.0 league for women. The AR state coordinator was incensed when I mentioned to her that probably deflates their ratings as a whole.
Like you said, everyone should be able to start at 3.0.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
That's too funny and despite there being some very smart and wonderful people in Arkansas, that is also typical Arkansas. It's easier for some interesting folks to get leadership positions in AR.
Appears to be near Charlotte.
Sugar creek is a tennis cub in Atl
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Ohhhh!
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