Starting Crosses At Throat

[chrisingrassia]

What new? You pick a racket and a pattern.

Is that your best shot?

there's some confusion here....

Maybe @chrisingrassia can come up with a racket that he wants to string with an ATW pattern and @Rabbit can tell him what ATW pattern to use.

I'll bite. I string my Aeropro Drive+ racquets in ATW just like he described above leaving the last short-side main open and converting to the top cross and then tie-off. I generally like all my mains to have the correct tension; if any string is going to have guesstimate tension I'd rather it be the very top and very bottom cross.

At the end of the day, kind of beating a dead horse I suppose. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and many stringers do things differently. The 2pc requirement from a mftr though to preserve a warranty sounds unreasonable to me if ATW gets you to string top-down.

 

[Irvin]

there's some confusion here....



I'll bite. I string my Aeropro Drive+ racquets in ATW just like he described above leaving the last short-side main open and converting to the top cross and then tie-off. I generally like all my mains to have the correct tension; if any string is going to have guesstimate tension I'd rather it be the very top and very bottom cross.

Ok you asked in post #45 why the mfr does not allow 1 piece stringing with ATW. Babolat does allow 1 piece and top down is better than bottom up. But Babolat does recommend two piece for all rackets.

I responded that when you use an ATW pattern you end up with a short section of frame supporting the transition from main to cross and cross to main. Then @Rabbit disagreed.

For an APD you skip 8 H&T. Grommet 8 is closer to 7&9 in all four corners than any other grommets on the frame. 7&9 are normal distance apart and 8 is between them. You run in the 7th main on the short side then loop around to the top cross. That's about 1/4" of frame supporting full tension on the 7th main plus full tension on the top cross. On the long side you go from 8th main to bottom cross same thing again. Then from the bottom cross to outside main again on the short side. All three location have very little frame supporting two strings. You avoid all that stringing two piece.

 

[Rabbit]

Neither was meant as a shot. I disagreed with the original and the 2nd made no sense.

After reading your above reply, I see. I still disagree as I do not thing it's a valid concern. Your initial post seemed to indicate to me at least the two strings in question were the top cross and bottom cross of an ATW. In your latest post, you indicate that the area of the frame used to transition from last main to cross is a "weak" section of the racquet and prone to failure.

I've never seen a failure at the 10/2 due to regular stringing or due to ATW. I've never even heard of it. So, in my experience, your claim is fallacious.

As to your racquet/pattern post, Wilson 6.1 16 X 18. I've strung this racquet countless times using an ATW and never seen any adverse affects or unusual or strange wear in that area due to that stringing. Quite the contrary, using an ATW on racquets saves grommets IMO because you only have two knots.

 

[Irvin]

I didn't say there was a valid concern. Nor did I claim 2 piece is better. But if the mfr says 1 piece voids warranty you better cut the strings out before you send it back with 2 knots. I was specifically talking about 1 specific mfr. Told me once they get a lot of failures in the corners because of 1 piece.

OTOH I just strung a Head YT instinct 2 piece. I could have strung it one piece by tying off the short side. Then use the the long side to do an ATW. No real difference from a 2 piece. But I would want to send it back with two knots. If you send one back with no string they may claim it could have been strung wrong and void the warranty.

 

[chrisingrassia]

For an APD you skip 8 H&T. Grommet 8 is closer to 7&9 in all four corners than any other grommets on the frame. 7&9 are normal distance apart and 8 is between them. You run in the 7th main on the short side then loop around to the top cross. That's about 1/4" of frame supporting full tension on the 7th main plus full tension on the top cross. On the long side you go from 8th main to bottom cross same thing again. Then from the bottom cross to outside main again on the short side. All three location have very little frame supporting two strings. You avoid all that stringing two piece.

I see what you're saying now. This discussion doesn't have anything to do whatsoever then with the "fragility" or "deformation" concerns from stringing bottom -> top, it's moreso about the amount of racquet material that exists between a main grommet hole and a cross grommet hole. I get that.

Ultimately, won't all those spots end up with identical tension pressure anyways though, even if you did 2pc?

 

[uk_skippy]

Ultimately, my question though is if the mftr's only place that warranty req't of stringing 2pc on the racquet, is it done so since the mains end at the throat? They don't want their racquets strung bottom-up. That's what I'm gathering it sounds like it. So if that's the case, why not string ATW? I don't see why a mftr would deny a warranty claim if the racquet was strung ATW.....unless it's because they can't tell it was done so?

Mfr produce patterns that any stringer should be able to follow. If they throw in that they'll accept ATW patterns, then a lot of new, inexperienced or low volume stringers may not have the skills to string ATW patterns. Stringing 2 piece is the easiest way to avoid this issue; and when learning to string it is also the easiest option.

 

[Rabbit]

When you string ATW you have to transition from mains to crosses and vice-a-versa. When you do you end usually end up with a short section of the frame somewhere supporting two strings with full tension on each string. That put a lot of pressure at the weakest part of the frame the top two corners. There are ways to get around it but if the manufacturer says don't do and there really nothing to gain why do it?

I didn't say there was a valid concern.

Your phraseology in the bolded first quoted post would certainly lead some, including me, to believe that you saw it as a concern.

 

[alexmcnab]

OK I'll throw in my opinion....What is this warranty everyone is talking about - I've bought numerous rackets over the years and never once had any information provided by the manufacturer in terms of warranty or indeed any guidance on how they should be strung. If manufacturers are going to void any warranty claim they should provide a warranty and instructions of how a racket must be strung. If its left for stringers to search out guidance on the "best" or "recommended" way to string a frame then we need more reliable and consistent information from manufacturers.

 

[am1899]

^^ I do agree that manufacturers could do a better job to communicate their explicit warranty terms - in particular for consumers. But, I won't hold my breath.

The conspiracy theorist in me believes that manufacturers do it intentionally. If, for a customer, a warranty policy is nonexistent, difficult to find, vague, etc....then that presumably enables manufacturers to limit warranty requests outright, and/or to shield themselves from having to approve an undesirable quantity of warranty requests. Further, I don't believe this kind of corporate mindset (about warranties) is unique to racquet sports companies. There are exceptions (companies that actually stand behind their products), of course...but they are exceptions, not the rule (IMO).

 

[MathieuR]

When I string a "woody", I string the crosses bottom-up.
But that's the only one. All the rest 2-piece, starting crosses at the head.

 

[MathieuR]

When I string a "woody", I string the crosses bottom-up.
But that's the only one. All the rest 2-piece, starting crosses at the head.
(something went wrong here)

 

[uk_skippy]

OK I'll throw in my opinion....What is this warranty everyone is talking about - I've bought numerous rackets over the years and never once had any information provided by the manufacturer in terms of warranty or indeed any guidance on how they should be strung. If manufacturers are going to void any warranty claim they should provide a warranty and instructions of how a racket must be strung. If its left for stringers to search out guidance on the "best" or "recommended" way to string a frame then we need more reliable and consistent information from manufacturers.

As I see you're in the UK I can answer your questions. Generally for rqts, mfr don't mention any warranty/guarantee although you will be covered under the sales of goods act. Not sure if such thing exists in the USA. So, if you have a problem with the rqt, then you take it back to where you bought it from and they will likely send it back to the mfr claiming a defect occurs. If so, you'll get a replacement. Now, upon that inspection if the mfr notices that the rqt has been strung incorrectly they may refuse the claim. You could then go back to your stringer telling them that the rqt has been strung incorrectly and it's down to them to compensate you.

As for information about stringing, if you have someone else string your rqts then it would be down to them to have or research that information. It would be like your car and a garage. I wouldn't expect to know what needs to be done with my car, but I'd expect my garage to know what the latest info is on it. The same would go for warranty. You may not get the full info on it, but the garage would know when can and can't be claimed for under a warranty. Common sense needs to be applied in both circumstances i.e. mis-treat it or not get it serviced correctly and a warranty claim may be refused.

So, someone else strings for you, make sure they are professional and know what they doing. If in doubt about patterns they use, ask them. If they dont know what ATW is, or they string 1 piece irrespective of the rqt, then maybe seek someone else.

If you string for yourself, get the latest info from the mfr website, or the USRSA. Stringing patterns are out the, and google is your friend.

Regards

Paul

 

[Irvin]

+1 - Well said Paul.

 

[alexmcnab]

As I see you're in the UK I can answer your questions. Generally for rqts, mfr don't mention any warranty/guarantee although you will be covered under the sales of goods act. Not sure if such thing exists in the USA. So, if you have a problem with the rqt, then you take it back to where you bought it from and they will likely send it back to the mfr claiming a defect occurs. If so, you'll get a replacement. Now, upon that inspection if the mfr notices that the rqt has been strung incorrectly they may refuse the claim. You could then go back to your stringer telling them that the rqt has been strung incorrectly and it's down to them to compensate you.

But my point is they shouldn't be able to refuse a claim if they hadn't provided you with the correct advice to start with!

It would be like your car and a garage. I wouldn't expect to know what needs to be done with my car, but I'd expect my garage to know what the latest info is on it. The same would go for warranty. You may not get the full info on it, but the garage would know when can and can't be claimed for under a warranty. Common sense needs to be applied in both circumstances i.e. mis-treat it or not get it serviced correctly and a warranty claim may be refused.

Except you do get a warranty with a car - something you can read and the information is readily available on their website.

If you string for yourself, get the latest info from the mfr website, or the USRSA. Stringing patterns are out the, and google is your friend.

I do string for myself and about 20 people at my club. The latest information is not readily available on all the manufacturers websites. Take Yonex, for example, I can't see any link on their website to stringing patterns, if you do search on google its comes up with http://www.yonex.co.uk/products/tennis-stringing-instructions/ that's ok, but there is no information on the Tour G series or old models. Babolat, Head and Wilson are better - but again often missing older models. Babolat show 1 or 2 piece patterns for many of their frames but then you come across advice like "they do allow bottom up stringing but recommend 2 piece" - why don't they just write that on their patterns rather leaving it to chance?

USRSA membership costs $175, that's half my profit gone. I do use ATW sometimes, 1piece and 2 piece stringing and this forum is great for helpful advice, and I use klipper and keep my own records. But all manufacturers could do better without a lot of effort especially when see the amount they produce on "new technologies" about their frames! And I sometimes come across frames, pre-strung 1 piece by the manufacturer, and then find they recommend 2 piece stringing!!

And yes, I have heard of google, I've been using computers since the days of the TRS80 - google it youngsters.

There, rant over, I feel better now.

 

[Irvin]

But my point is they shouldn't be able to refuse a claim if they hadn't provided you with the correct advice to start with!

True there is no written warranty that comes with a racket. I think there is an implied warranty that comes with a racket and the mfr will replace it for defects in materials and workmanship. If a racket is returned to any mfr and they can't find any reason for breakage other than defective materials I think they will replace it.

On the other hand if the mfr sees a common defect and they can even ASSUME the defect was caused by improper handling then because there is no written warranty they can choose to do what they want.

Sure would be nice though if you could get any old racket replaced because it broke. I would think mfrs have used CAD modeling programs to determine what they feel is best for their particular frames. If you don't follow their recommendations then you must accept the responsibility. Even what you see listed on Klippermate, USRSA, TW, or any other site is not necessarily what the mfr recommends.

 

[alexmcnab]

I agree, but my point still stands. I'm more than happy to follow manufacturers recommendations, in fact I really want to, and to take responsibility if I break them but give us the information to start with!!!!

 

[uk_skippy]

But my point is they shouldn't be able to refuse a claim if they hadn't provided you with the correct advice to start with!

It's the stringers responsibility to string the rqt correctly, just as its the mechanics to service and fix my car correctly. If you're the stringer, then look for the information if you don't have it. Even call the mfr to ask that for that info. If in doubt, 2 piece will always be ok.

If someone comes to you with a rqt you've not seen before, what do you do? Most rqts are the same, but some require special attention such as the Head Crossbow series. Will you refuse to do it because your customer hasn't got the information? Or will you look at it as a learning experience.

Except you do get a warranty with a car - something you can read and the information is readily available on their website.

Other than stringing instructions, what other pieces of information would you want to see on a rqt warranty? The biggest thing with rqt claims would be the mis-use and abbuse of the rqt. If you have a problem with the rqt, the Sales of Goods Act applies. This act does not apply to cars in the same manner.

I do string for myself and about 20 people at my club. The latest information is not readily available on all the manufacturers websites. Take Yonex, for example, I can't see any link on their website to stringing patterns, if you do search on google its comes up with http://www.yonex.co.uk/products/tennis-stringing-instructions/ that's ok, but there is no information on the Tour G series or old models. Babolat, Head and Wilson are better - but again often missing older models. Babolat show 1 or 2 piece patterns for many of their frames but then you come across advice like "they do allow bottom up stringing but recommend 2 piece" - why don't they just write that on their patterns rather leaving it to chance?

USRSA membership costs $175, that's half my profit gone. I do use ATW sometimes, 1piece and 2 piece stringing and this forum is great for helpful advice, and I use klipper and keep my own records. But all manufacturers could do better without a lot of effort especially when see the amount they produce on "new technologies" about their frames! And I sometimes come across frames, pre-strung 1 piece by the manufacturer, and then find they recommend 2 piece stringing!!

And yes, I have heard of google, I've been using computers since the days of the TRS80 - google it youngsters.

There, rant over, I feel better now.

I appreciate that some mfr could do better with their info, but being a member of the USRSA/ERSA will help as you will get access to string patterns. I have stringers digest going back to 1991 and so cover a lot of older frames. If you want to learn and get better, you have to bite the bullet and pay out somewhere. This will help your customer base understand your professionalism.

Babolat frames come pre-strung from the factory 1-piece. But that is also part of the problem with the Uk selling pre-strung frames unlike our cousins in the USA and Europe.

I string racketball rqts, but there are so many different patterns and unique frames chances are everytime I get a new customer they'll have a different frame. Would I xepct them to have the stringing pattern? No. It's my job to make sure I look for the right pattern, and string it correctly. So I will search on google.

My comment re: google was a general one for people using this forum. While you may have used computers since the TR80, I suspect I have been stringing since you were using said computer; so while I appreciate being called youngster, when it comes to stringing this is my area of expertise. I'm happy to help where I can, but taking someone else's rqt and providing a service, to me, should follow a professional approach. Hence why I take my car to a garage that I know will do things right because I'm not a mechanic.

 

[Irvin]

I agree, but my point still stands. I'm more than happy to follow manufacturers recommendations, in fact I really want to, and to take responsibility if I break them but give us the information to start with!!!!

Here's Wilson, if there's another specific mfr you're concerned about google them:
http://www.wilson.com/en-us/customer-service/racket-warranty/

 

[alexmcnab]

It's the stringers responsibility to string the rqt correctly, just as its the mechanics to service and fix my car correctly. If you're the stringer, then look for the information if you don't have it. Even call the mfr to ask that for that info. If in doubt, 2 piece will always be ok.

If someone comes to you with a rqt you've not seen before, what do you do? Most rqts are the same, but some require special attention such as the Head Crossbow series. Will you refuse to do it because your customer hasn't got the information? Or will you look at it as a learning experience.

Other than stringing instructions, what other pieces of information would you want to see on a rqt warranty? The biggest thing with rqt claims would be the mis-use and abbuse of the rqt. If you have a problem with the rqt, the Sales of Goods Act applies. This act does not apply to cars in the same manner.

I appreciate that some mfr could do better with their info, but being a member of the USRSA/ERSA will help as you will get access to string patterns. I have stringers digest going back to 1991 and so cover a lot of older frames. If you want to learn and get better, you have to bite the bullet and pay out somewhere. This will help your customer base understand your professionalism.

Babolat frames come pre-strung from the factory 1-piece. But that is also part of the problem with the Uk selling pre-strung frames unlike our cousins in the USA and Europe.

I string racketball rqts, but there are so many different patterns and unique frames chances are everytime I get a new customer they'll have a different frame. Would I xepct them to have the stringing pattern? No. It's my job to make sure I look for the right pattern, and string it correctly. So I will search on google.

My comment re: google was a general one for people using this forum. While you may have used computers since the TR80, I suspect I have been stringing since you were using said computer; so while I appreciate being called youngster, when it comes to stringing this is my area of expertise. I'm happy to help where I can, but taking someone else's rqt and providing a service, to me, should follow a professional approach. Hence why I take my car to a garage that I know will do things right because I'm not a mechanic.

Oh dear, I wasn't calling you a youngster and I certainly accept your area of expertise. Sure, I don't expect my customers to give me the pattern and I'm happy to look for it. But you do take my point, I hope, that manufacturers, especially given the power of the internet have a cheap way of providing information which, for whatever reason, some of them are lacking. I can't think of anything off else off the top of my head I want them to say in their warranty apart from the pattern(s) that they approve of and how long it lasts.

 

[uk_skippy]

Oh dear, I wasn't calling you a youngster

No, please do ;-)

Sure, I don't expect my customers to give me the pattern and I'm happy to look for it. But you do take my point, I hope, that manufacturers, especially given the power of the internet have a cheap way of providing information which, for whatever reason, some of them are lacking. I can't think of anything off else off the top of my head I want them to say in their warranty apart from the pattern(s) that they approve of and how long it lasts.

It would be good if mfr gave the buyer an info card, but also suspect that a lot of people would just bin it.

Generally any warranty would only be for a year, so after that if a stringer wanted to use a pattern other than what the mfr states, that's on the head of the stringer. I've also seen that there are a lot of stringers who will string how they want irrespective of what is the right way to do it; including those who I suspect would ignore any info given by the mfr given with a rqt. While a stringing pattern is important i.e 1 piece, 2 piece, ATW, how you follow that is also important. I'm sort of assuming that mfrs assume that their rqts will be strung by people who know how to string correct; whereas there are plenty out there who don't. I guess what I'm saying is that if they included approved patterns, then they would have to include detailed stringing instructions such as stringing only 2 or 3 mains on one side i.e. general stringing rules.

 

[alexmcnab]

Here's Wilson, if there's another specific mfr you're concerned about google them:
http://www.wilson.com/en-us/customer-service/racket-warranty/

I don't have a specific manufacturer I'm worried about. The link is for the US, and again only find-able via google or from searching "warranty" on their site, no direct link. No such page on the Wilson UK site, which kinda proves my point.

 

[zapvor]

I suspect that the rqt was for an on-court giving the speed he's 'moving' the strings.

At any tournament that I work at in a 'managerial' role we will always string ATW for 2 knot requests..unless the player specified bottom up.



I would do ATW. I'd never do bottom up unless requested.

Regards

Paul

he doesn't look that fast?