Tennis Rating System

[SATennis]

Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

 

[Ash Doyle]

http://www.tencaptennis.com/

 

[SATennis]

Yeah, I know the website. I was really looking for someone with some experience with TENCAP, trying to see if anyone outside of the Kansas CIty community has heard of it or had any experience with it.

 

[cak]

Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before.

Why don't you just look the player up on tennislink? And if they don't have a rating subtract 1 (4.5-1 = 3.5) and set your player up with that level? I've played with other players around the country at tennis camps and resorts, and that pretty much sums up the rating discrepancy.

But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

I haven't used TENCAP, but in NorCal, for one brief season they attempted to kick off a similar system where you enter all scores (even social games) and it would show your DNTRP out to three decimal places. Your rating changed with each match. USTA league matches were automatically entered. What NorCal found was, you still can cheat the system. More decimal places doesn't make it more accurate. And ladies are more likely to tell you their real weight than tell you their social game scores.

 

[SATennis]

I would imagine the winners of matches are likely to tell you the real scores. This system apparently allows you to view your rating and your previous matches online on your personal page. I am considering implimenting it at my club. I know of a few of my players already interested. It definitely works for the golf.

 

[cak]

I would imagine the winners of matches are likely to tell you the real scores. This system apparently allows you to view your rating and your previous matches online on your personal page. I am considering implimenting it at my club. I know of a few of my players already interested.

Here's the cheating part. When you enter scores you can tell immediately how it affects your rating. In TPI (our version) used the DNTRP algoritm. You could tell how much different a 6-1, 6-1 win would affect your score, versus a 6-4, 6-4 win. Winners would fudge the scores so they didn't move their rating. Losers would be happy not to be go down. Or folks would sandbag to ensure their ratings weren't moving. Or they would put scores in for friends they didn't play against, who aren't following the scores because they are injured and haven't been on the court for months. Or they would borrow people's names and ratings to put in a foursome where 3 players had numbers, and the fourth was about the same rating they figured. You need more than a few to participate, you need buy in from all the players for the scores to be entered correctly and people to be checking the scores. At our club we were on the system because of a few players, and the rest made it into a joke so even the few players couldn't get decent readings out of it.

It definitely works for the golf.

The thing about golf is you are playing yourself. Your good, or bad score does not affect anyone else's rating.

 

[chess9]

Here's the cheating part. When you enter scores you can tell immediately how it affects your rating. In TPI (our version) used the DNTRP algoritm. You could tell how much different a 6-1, 6-1 win would affect your score, versus a 6-4, 6-4 win. Winners would fudge the scores so they didn't move their rating. Losers would be happy not to be go down. Or folks would sandbag to ensure their ratings weren't moving. Or they would put scores in for friends they didn't play against, who aren't following the scores because they are injured and haven't been on the court for months. Or they would borrow people's names and ratings to put in a foursome where 3 players had numbers, and the fourth was about the same rating they figured. You need more than a few to participate, you need buy in from all the players for the scores to be entered correctly and people to be checking the scores. At our club we were on the system because of a few players, and the rest made it into a joke so even the few players couldn't get decent readings out of it.



The thing about golf is you are playing yourself. Your good, or bad score does not affect anyone else's rating.

Golf handicaps are notoriously low because no one is supervising the round. The amount of cheating in golf is 100 times greater than in tennis, at least. Most golfers don't know the rules, and break them several times a round.

-Robert

 

[chess9]

Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

Of course, you can never guard against sandbagging I assume, which is a problem in rated tennis. Does this system help that problem in some way?

-Robert

 

[SATennis]

I think it is difficult to prevent some type of Sandbagging. The plan is to get everyone at the club into the Tencap system. It has a rating chart that compares with the NTRP system, so as a starting point, I can use players current NTRP rating to give them a Tencap Rating. The Tencap system apparently only changes a players rating after 8 sets. But once the players play enough sets, the ratings should start to sort them out. If all my players are on a tencap and can see the results of all the sets they have played throughout the year and how their rating has improved or dropped, I think they would be more ethusiastic to play, and hopefully more keen to improve so it would increase my club's lesson revenue.

If I can the get other clubs in my area to use the system, I could host interclub events based on the system. The rating system can also act as handicap, so the difference in two players ratings will be equivalent to the number of points the weaker player gets to use at any time during the set. I think that could be a fun tournament to run. Try prevent the guy that always wins from winning by leveling the playing field.

I have been told that the system also allows club administration to arrange events, and organize player lists according to rating or league team etc. So that will be a useful feature for me as well. I think the company is just starting out, so I don't know of how many other clubs are using the system. Hopefully someone out there has heard of it.

 

[spectraflamed]

I honestly filled out the rating wizard and ended up with a 37 which seems pretty high or I guess low since the lower the better. If I had to just guess I would have thought around 45-46 would have been correct for me.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I filled it out and got a 48. I told the computer I win 25% of my matches (which is a tad low), but I bumped myself to a 3 for conditioning, strength, athletic ability and footspeed.

Then I went back and changed those threes to fours, except I kept a three for footspeed (because I'm proud of my footspeed!). Still, I got a 48.

Weird.

 

[SATennis]

Yeah, I think the rating wizard is there if you do not have an NTRP and you don't have a pro to rate you accurately. It is supposed to give you a general idea of where you would be rated, but I guess it is not very accurate.

Have you guys looked at anything else on the website? What do you think of it?

 

[BigJEFF]

I have TenCap for at least 10 yrs

Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

I have played Tencap for yrs it is a lot of fun the best part is making it to the finals. They play all the division finals in 1 day used to be 1 night but due to the number of divisions they make it all day now and at 2 different places. They have a huge dinner for the players and then everyone watches and cheers for thier own club players. One of the best enviroment's and most enjoyable Tennis events I have ever been a part of it is always followed by having the Top players and Local pros playing thier finals and seeing some awesome Tennis with lots of Beer. You also here of very few problems because I think the people who run it use commen sence and we all know that the USTA has never heard of that..... SA I am from KC also what club do you play out of and what is your rating.

 

[SATennis]

I have played Tencap for yrs it is a lot of fun the best part is making it to the finals. They play all the division finals in 1 day used to be 1 night but due to the number of divisions they make it all day now and at 2 different places. They have a huge dinner for the players and then everyone watches and cheers for thier own club players. One of the best enviroment's and most enjoyable Tennis events I have ever been a part of it is always followed by having the Top players and Local pros playing thier finals and seeing some awesome Tennis with lots of Beer. You also here of very few problems because I think the people who run it use commen sence and we all know that the USTA has never heard of that..... SA I am from KC also what club do you play out of and what is your rating.

Tencap sounds pretty good. Have you had any experience with any other leagues other than Tencap?
I am currently not a member of a club. I do a little coaching at the Carriage Club. My rating is probably around a 6.0 (maybe a 5.5 now days). What is your NTRP (or your Tencap)?

 

[BigJEFF]

BiG Jeff

Tencap sounds pretty good. Have you had any experience with any other leagues other than Tencap?
I am currently not a member of a club. I do a little coaching at the Carriage Club. My rating is probably around a 6.0 (maybe a 5.5 now days). What is your NTRP (or your Tencap)?

ask Kirkland about me he knows BIG JEFF LOL I am the Heavy weight Tennis champ of the World lol

 

[Geezer Guy]

All the KC guys know Big Jeff!

 

[Geezer Guy]

Eh - I didn't mean that quite the way it sounded.

 

[Torres]

Looks infinitely better than NTRP. In this day and age, there's no excuse not to have a computerized, dynamic rating system. Shame it hasn't really taken off. Needs to be taken up by a national association really.

http://my.tencaptennis.com/help/video.aspx?size=medium&video=Tencap_Ratings_Explained

 

[schmke]

Looks infinitely better than NTRP. In this day and age, there's no excuse not to have a computerized, dynamic rating system. Shame it hasn't really taken off. Needs to be taken up by a national association really.

http://my.tencaptennis.com/help/video.aspx?size=medium&video=Tencap_Ratings_Explained

NTRP is a computerized dynamic rating system, so the USTA is using one. Sure, there are valid complaints about it, but don't ding it for not being computerized and dynamic.

 

[sovertennis]

Why don't you just look the player up on tennislink? And if they don't have a rating subtract 1 (4.5-1 = 3.5) and set your player up with that level? I've played with other players around the country at tennis camps and resorts, and that pretty much sums up the rating discrepancy.

The rating inflation CAK speaks of is rampant at the camp where I teach as well, so I agree with his "subtract one from whatever the person rates him/herself." When a player tells me his/her rating, I always ask "Are you in a USTA league?" if the answer is "no" then the person is likely aggrandizing their rating.

 

[Govnor]

If someone is quoting a USTA ranking, then they need to play in a USTA league (and at least win some matches, some of the time).

Otherwise they are making a guess. Some will be accurate, most will not be.

 

[J0EBL0W]

Giving players more detailed information about thier current rating will only invite more sanbagging and rating manipulation. I think this is a terrible idea.

 

[J0EBL0W]

I guess I should expand on my previous opinion. I think it can be an interesting and useful thing in a casual application. It would probably work on a small scale. However, if they USTA were to switch to it I think league enjoyment would go down, not up.

 

[J_R_B]

Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

The DNTRP calculation is already automated and only based on play. What do you do if no one has played any matches yet? They still have a self rating algorithm for initial ratings, too. The Tencap formula seems a little more sophisticated, but who knows if it's more accurate or not.

The success of a league will depend on participation. If lots of people participate in tencap in KC, it will be successful there (like ALTA in Atlanta), but it hasn't caught on nationwide.

 

[topspinlobber]

Tencap is a frikin joke, its used at my tennis club (chain) in uk, ..heres why it doesnt work..

you can PICK your opponents in my clubs box leagues, club championships once a year are different obviously, you can ignore match requests, its used basically to inflate your position at the club, look better or higher up than you are..

"I played bad at the club championships but look at my tencap, its better than yours" kind of thing.

I get people ducking me all the time and its holding me back, casual matches are mostly what I get, if you put a score in it can get rejected by the other player!! Lol

virgin active in uk, it stinks, end of.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Tencap is a frikin joke, its used at my tennis club (chain) in uk, ..heres why it doesnt work..

you can PICK your opponents in my clubs box leagues, club championships once a year are different obviously, you can ignore match requests, its used basically to inflate your position at the club, look better or higher up than you are..

"I played bad at the club championships but look at my tencap, its better than yours" kind of thing.

I get people ducking me all the time and its holding me back, casual matches are mostly what I get, if you put a score in it can get rejected by the other player!! Lol

virgin active in uk, it stinks, end of.

It sounds like the same problem in some ladders: I can avoid challenges by making availability excuses.

I missed the original thread but I read it just now and the problem doesn't appear to be the system used but rather people over-inflating their #. If you're trying to judge someone with no record, USTA or TENCAP, the only way to do it is to observe them hitting or talk to people who have played that person. Lacking either, I suppose the "subtract 2 levels" is just as good as any other rule of thumb.

I think one reason people honestly overrate themselves is because they think linearly: they see the USTA scale of 1.0 - 7.0, they find the mathematical average of 4.0 and, because they figure they're above average, add on 0.5. Voila: 4.5!

 

[Deleted member 23235]

anyone do a tencap (haven't researched) vs. utr comparison?
I like the idea of utr because it doesn't care about age or sex (ie. a 4.5 guy != 4.5 girl)
but like everyone else, i think NTRP is too vague... but perhaps it's not necessarily about the system, the real issue (at least with the same sex/age brackets) is that the "system" is not enforced, and is loosely interpretted by folks (ie. computer rated NTRP 4.0 >= self rated 4.5 (with no playing experience)
i think it's too vague, because it's intended to be inclusive/ego boosting - eg. as a marketing tool for the USTA to continue collecting fees through maximum membership numbers.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

http://www.tencaptennis.com/

i just signed up... is it me or does it not allow searching by area?

 

[Startzel]

anyone do a tencap (haven't researched) vs. utr comparison?
I like the idea of utr because it doesn't care about age or sex (ie. a 4.5 guy != 4.5 girl)
but like everyone else, i think NTRP is too vague... but perhaps it's not necessarily about the system, the real issue (at least with the same sex/age brackets) is that the "system" is not enforced, and is loosely interpretted by folks (ie. computer rated NTRP 4.0 >= self rated 4.5 (with no playing experience)
i think it's too vague, because it's intended to be inclusive/ego boosting - eg. as a marketing tool for the USTA to continue collecting fees through maximum membership numbers.

The biggest issue with the NTRP is that it only updates once a year.

So right now in November of 2016 I'm playing at a level where my last match that counted toward that rating was played in May of 2015. That's 18 months ago.

That is one thing really cool about the UTR and i guess the ten cap.

 

[schmke]

The biggest issue with the NTRP is that it only updates once a year.

So right now in November of 2016 I'm playing at a level where my last match that counted toward that rating was played in May of 2015. That's 18 months ago.

That is one thing really cool about the UTR and i guess the ten cap.

That isn't a flaw with the algorithm, but rather with how often the USTA choses to publish new ratings. And doing away with early start ratings has only made this worse.

But any rating algorithm can only be as good as the match data it uses. If someone is new and hasn't played matches and gotten an actual generated rating, anything they guess or were told by a friend or were rated by a pro is only a guess and shouldn't be worth anything.

Because of the size and scale of USTA League, a lot of players to have an NTRP rating so that is why it is a popular measure to use. It is when players that don't or haven't played USTA start using it that things go haywire as folks represent themselves with a rating that is not real. If another system were to catch on and have the same breadth and scale, it could rival or supplant NTRP I imagine, but without a national organization like the USTA, it is hard to have the number of matches for so many players all using the same system.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Any rating system that isn't "open" can be manipulated. As I've said before a rating system just takes the data that's put in and calculates a rating based on that data. It's the humans that put the data in. So it's not, for instance, the NTRP rating system that's bad, it is the people putting in the data. With that said, for a national system, NTRP gets it mostly right and is pretty good overall.