Tennis Record dynamic rating

[Alicia24]

How accurate is it? I am a 3.5C player. 2018 USTA league matches were as follows-

Doubles 2 - lost 0-6, 1-6
Doubles 1 - lost 2-6, 4-6
Doubles 1 - lost 7-5, 4-5, 0-1 ( timed match with second set tie break at 4-4 and third set sudden death point lost hence 0-1)

Played a USTA tournament 4.0 singles match and lost to a 4.0 player 4-6, 4-6

So TR tells me as of today my current rating is 2.9463 and so projected 2018 year end rating is 3.0 .

I thought, even though I have lost all matches, the losses aren't so bad ( considering playing doubles 1 and a 4.0 player)

Help me understand here please!

Also, what's next, what do i do? I don't want to get bumped down.

Thanks

 

[Alicia24]

Bump

 

[OnTheLine]

TR is for entertainment purposes only. It's algorithm is sketchy at best and seems to be better with people who play a lot of matches (20+) versus fewer. The fact that it is calculating your rating on only 3 matches means there isn't much data there and it is less reliable than ratings with a lot of data (and those aren't right either!)

It also makes up a starting rating. It has no idea what the actual USTA starting rating is.

What to do?

Relax, if it upsets you, don't look at TR (or TLS) or UTR

Bear in mind that bump downs don't happen a lot, your C rating is very sticky and you would need to be decidedly below level to get bumped down holding a C rating (versus an S)

If you are really really concerned:

• practice more (get better)
• play more
• Play against people with higher ratings and beat what the computer says you are supposed to do

But also, why wouldn't you want to get bumped down if that is ultimately the level the USTA thinks your play belongs?

 

[Alicia24]

TR is for entertainment purposes only. It's algorithm is sketchy at best and seems to be better with people who play a lot of matches (20+) versus fewer. The fact that it is calculating your rating on only 3 matches means there isn't much data there and it is less reliable than ratings with a lot of data (and those aren't right either!)

It also makes up a starting rating. It has no idea what the actual USTA starting rating is.

What to do?

Relax, if it upsets you, don't look at TR (or TLS) or UTR

Bear in mind that bump downs don't happen a lot, your C rating is very sticky and you would need to be decidedly below level to get bumped down holding a C rating (versus an S)

If you are really really concerned:

• practice more (get better)
• play more
• Play against people with higher ratings and beat what the computer says you are supposed to do

But also, why wouldn't you want to get bumped down if that is ultimately the level the USTA thinks your play belongs?

Thanks for responding. I just clicked on my name and the details popped up. It only listed the 3 league doubles matches I played. It does not show the tournament result. To answer your last question , the reason I signed up for singles 4.0 is a) I play better at singles and b)honestly think I can match a 4.0 player, hence the result 4-6, 4-6 , which in my opinion is pretty okay. Also c) i was aware my league doubles wasn't that great and felt a better tournament result would help me (ratings, confidence etc)

I am now wondering why I do not see the usta tournament result in TRs calculation...

 

[schmke]

See what @OnTheLine said regarding using the sites for entertainment purposes only. Most people could guess year-end levels and be more accurate so don't get hung up where they have you.

Regarding losing not always being bad, you are right it isn't. See my FAQ (Google "schmidt computer ratings ntrp faq") that described a fair amount about how it works and how losing close can sometimes help your rating more than winning as it all depends on who you play and who you play with. See the links there for the reports I do that do offer an accurate estimate of where you stand with details of why.

 

[OnTheLine]

Thanks for responding. I just clicked on my name and the details popped up. It only listed the 3 league doubles matches I played. It does not show the tournament result. To answer your last question , the reason I signed up for singles 4.0 is a) I play better at singles and b)honestly think I can match a 4.0 player, hence the result 4-6, 4-6 , which in my opinion is pretty okay. Also c) i was aware my league doubles wasn't that great and felt a better tournament result would help me (ratings, confidence etc)

I am now wondering why I do not see the usta tournament result in TRs calculation...

Because TR does not include any tournament matches. Not all sections include tournament results in year end calculations either.

 

[Alicia24]

Because TR does not include any tournament matches. Not all sections include tournament results in year end calculations either.

Okay. So are you saying I would be wasting my time if I stuck to looking for and playing USTA tournaments? (I much prefer that over league play but if it doesn't help my rating then... )

 

[Alicia24]

See what @OnTheLine said regarding using the sites for entertainment purposes only. Most people could guess year-end levels and be more accurate so don't get hung up where they have you.

Regarding losing not always being bad, you are right it isn't. See my FAQ (Google "schmidt computer ratings ntrp faq") that described a fair amount about how it works and how losing close can sometimes help your rating more than winning as it all depends on who you play and who you play with. See the links there for the reports I do that do offer an accurate estimate of where you stand with details of why.

Thanks Schmike and I went to your webpage. Again, I do not see any mention of tournament results in ratings calculation. The one I played mentioned itself as a "USTA sanctioned" tournament and I was pretty sure (until now) that they are all considered in ratings calculation?! Why would USTA only take league play into consideration? Is that even fair? Can i call up a USTA coordinator and clear this doubt?

Please advice.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Okay. So are you saying I would be wasting my time if I stuck to looking for and playing USTA tournaments? (I much prefer that over league play but if it doesn't help my rating then... )

You're allowing the rating tail to wag the tennis dog. Instead of choosing what to play based on how it will affect your rating, how about choosing what to play based on how much you enjoy it and let the rating take care of itself?

If you're a better singles than doubles player, ask to play mainly or only singles.

Find out from your league coordinator or other players whether tournaments are included in the year-end calculation.

Play more tournaments.

If worse comes to worst and you get bumped down, you could always appeal. @schmke might have stats on how often appeals up are granted.

But that's 6 months away and TR has you as 5/100ths of a point away from 3.5; I wouldn't be terribly concerned at this point.

One exception would be if getting bumped down means having to find a completely new group or locale or maybe even that there is no new group or locale.

 

[OnTheLine]

Okay. So are you saying I would be wasting my time if I stuck to looking for and playing USTA tournaments? (I much prefer that over league play but if it doesn't help my rating then... )

If the only thing you are interested in regarding playing tennis is your rating, and if you live in an area that doesn't include tournaments, then yes, you would be wasting your time.

If however you play tennis because you enjoy it, and you enjoyed your tournament for the competition, then of course you are not wasting your time.

In my mind, play tennis because you want to play tennis, not for a rating. Play for better competition, improvement, etc.

The ratings are there to make tennis more enjoyable for adults. If you are playing at the wrong level it becomes less enjoyable for everyone. If you are actually playing at a 3.0 level, playing at 3.5 makes actual 3.5 players have less fun (no competition and wins that are way too easy)

 

[OnTheLine]

Oh, and the reason why some areas don't include tournament play is that some players go and play tourneys simply to tank their rating so that they stay at their level and win leagues.

 

[schmke]

Thanks Schmike and I went to your webpage. Again, I do not see any mention of tournament results in ratings calculation. The one I played mentioned itself as a "USTA sanctioned" tournament and I was pretty sure (until now) that they are all considered in ratings calculation?! Why would USTA only take league play into consideration? Is that even fair? Can i call up a USTA coordinator and clear this doubt?

Please advice.

The USTA gives each section the choice whether to include tournaments in year-end ratings or not. Some do, some don't. There are pros/cons to including them and some sections think the pros (getting more results and a more complete picture) outweigh the cons (players using them for tanking matches or playing up a lot that results in non-representative matches).

I'm not asking you to give away who you are, but what section are you in?

 

[Alicia24]

Okay, it's disheartening to hear about tournaments honestly. I am a female ( as you would have guessed from my display name) and outside of USTA I play only with guys. It just is that way because well they're my friends. They're all players in the higher or in the range of 3.5 , a few even 4.0. And I always play badass with them. I have good FH, BH technique, bending knees, swing , direction, pretty much very good at baseline and make quite a few winners when i get an opening ( down the line, cross court). I am only trying to give a little background here. My male playing partners have told me as well you're a solid 3.5 player, have you taken lessons, your technique is good etc. Because I can keep up and they enjoy playing with me when i am the only female player in a doubles match.

Having said all of the above, when it came to playing this years USTA women's league, I ended up with a sand bagger the first time ( she openly admitted she is looking to be bumped down), the other times I am not sure why I slightly lose the game I have when i. play with just guys.

The tournament result against a well established 4.0 was better because it's just me, and I am a good singles player.

Which is why i am So hung on not getting bumped down. I certainly wouldn't enjoy playing in a 3.0 cause I am clearly not that. I always like playing up.

 

[Alicia24]

The USTA gives each section the choice whether to include tournaments in year-end ratings or not. Some do, some don't. There are pros/cons to including them and some sections think the pros (getting more results and a more complete picture) outweigh the cons (players using them for tanking matches or playing up a lot that results in non-representative matches).

I'm not asking you to give away who you are, but what section are you in?

Middle States. ( Middlesex, Somerset, union)

 

[schmke]

So your tournament result(s) may count, depends on what section you are in. And should they count, I can include them in my reports/analysis.

And playing with someone that is tanking a match is going to unfairly hurt your rating. But if you play enough that one match won't have much impact on your rating.

But playing with men and women is certainly different. The style and pace of play are different and you have to get used to this and how to combat it. I've played with women who when presented with steady pace can use it and hit back with similar pace consistently, but when they are faced with little pace and/or loopy moon-balls in a women's league match are befuddled and go for too much and miss or get frustrated with that style of play. The result is their rating from league is arguably lower than their potential that they can show signs up against stronger players. Once they figure out how to handle the different style/pace they get bumped up and to where they "should" be, but it can be frustrating to have to do that to get out of the lower level.

 

[Ft.S]

Alicia, there are many options within USTA, and I am sure non-USTA opportunities in your area. As for USTA, don't worry about your rating, just play and results eventually will be reflected in your rating at the end of the year. It is too early for anyone, even for people who have been playing 40-50+ matches thus far in the year.

If you want to play higher quality matches, you maybe able to find 4.0W league teams, or 8.0 mixed teams to play on paired with 4.5M. If you really prefer tournaments, as schmeke mentions, your league rating won't be impacted up or down, but you will get a "T" rating, which is for tournaments only.

One final note, if in the unlikely scenario you get bumped down to 3.0, you can appeal it to get back on 3.5, which in most sections is automatically approved. So, don't get hung up on the ratings, just try to find good leagues/tournaments to play on, which may not be easy when starting off with USTA until you build your USTA-social network

 

[schmke]

Middle States. ( Middlesex, Somerset, union)

I believe your sanctioned NTRP tournaments do count in Middle States.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Getting beat 0 and 1 on court 2 doubles is killing your rating. That alone is enough to take you into bump down territory, and your other matches are honestly not strong enough to pull your rating back up. Also, the tournament won’t count towards your NTRP rating in this context. So, you are at significant risk of being a 3.0 soon. Better get some more matches in that count towards your rating by the end of the year.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Getting beat 0 and 1 on court 2 doubles is killing your rating.

It depends on how good the opponents were: if they are top 3.5 and she is bottom 3.5, a 0 & 1 outcome is expected. What court you play is irrelevant.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

It depends on how good the opponents were: if they are top 3.5 and she is bottom 3.5, a 0 & 1 outcome is expected. What court you play is irrelevant.

That is theoretically possible, but unless the other team was stacking the line up, this scenario suggests that the OP may not be a 3.5 calibur player.

 

[Alicia24]

Getting beat 0 and 1 on court 2 doubles is killing your rating. That alone is enough to take you into bump down territory, and your other matches are honestly not strong enough to pull your rating back up. Also, the tournament won’t count towards your NTRP rating in this context. So, you are at significant risk of being a 3.0 soon. Better get some more matches in that count towards your rating by the end of the year.

Why wouldn't my tournament match be counted?

Also, as I have said in my previous response , I was paired with a more like 3.0 player who was making unforced errors and double faults. So no matter how well you try to salvage the match, if the opponents are top 3.5 , then you're screwed if your partner is sandbagging/not playing like 3.5. I know I was, but in doubles you're only as good as your partner.

You're saying 7-5, 4-5 , 0-1 is not a good score?? I wonder what is a good score for you then??

 

[OnTheLine]

Why wouldn't my tournament match be counted?

Also, as I have said in my previous response , I was paired with a more like 3.0 player who was making unforced errors and double faults. So no matter how well you try to salvage the match, if the opponents are top 3.5 , then you're screwed if your partner is sandbagging/not playing like 3.5. I know I was, but in doubles you're only as good as your partner.

You're saying 7-5, 4-5 , 0-1 is not a good score?? I wonder what is a good score for you then??

it all depends on who your opponents are ... if they are at the top of 3.5, like a 3.40 rating then it is a very good score, if they are at the bottom, like 3.02 then not so great, or if it includes a 3.0 playing up, again not so good.

Seriously, for your own sanity and happiness, don't worry about it. Play your best, play for the enjoyment of it all, play as competitively as able and ENJOY TENNIS and stop worrying about the ratings that don't even come out for 6 months!

 

[Alicia24]

it all depends on who your opponents are ... if they are at the top of 3.5, like a 3.40 rating then it is a very good score, if they are at the bottom, like 3.02 then not so great, or if it includes a 3.0 playing up, again not so good.

Seriously, for your own sanity and happiness, don't worry about it. Play your best, play for the enjoyment of it all, play as competitively as able and ENJOY TENNIS and stop worrying about the ratings that don't even come out for 6 months!

Yes! I needed to hear this. Advice taken. Thank you so much , everyone here. I know I sometimes over think and that spoils the fun of it all.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That is theoretically possible, but unless the other team was stacking the line up, this scenario suggests that the OP may not be a 3.5 calibur player.

True. I hadn't considered the possibility of stacking. But even if they didn't, it's still possible that the other team was rated considerably higher than the OP's.

 

[J_R_B]

Middle States. ( Middlesex, Somerset, union)

Middlesex, Somorset, Union is part of Eastern Section NJ Region. Middle States ends with Mercer and Hunterdon. There are Middle States teams that play out of Middlesex (Edison, East Brunswick, etc), though.

 

[Alicia24]

Middlesex, Somorset, Union is part of Eastern Section NJ Region. Middle States ends with Mercer and Hunterdon. There are Middle States teams that play out of Middlesex (Edison, East Brunswick, etc), though.

This tournament was in Mercer county.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

also keep in mind that the NTRP is really a distribution system... so if next year there happened to be, say an spike of players coming in at the 3.5/4.0 level, it's possible you get bumped down anyway, because the USTA needs to distribute the levels more evenly. i feel like this has happened at least 2-3x in the time i've been playing league tennis.

but yeah, like everyone else said, if you don't want to get bumped down, focus on getting better... practice, take lessons, get in better shape, read some books, watch youtube vids, etc...

 

[J_R_B]

This tournament was in Mercer county.

That tournament was a sanctioned NTRP tournament and the result should count, but tournament results are only added to the year end rating. They are not used to update your dynamic rating during the year. As for your league results, intuitively they look like low 3.5 near the line to be bumped down to 3.0. The line number doesn't matter (especially since that's not a weighted points league so there is not really any incentive to play top players on top lines), only the ratings of the players in the match. In your first two matches, your opponents generally win at 3.5 and some play up, so they are likely stronger 3.5s. In the third match, despite playing on the #1 line, your opponents haven't won a lot and are not likely top rated 3.5s. So, losing badly to stronger 3.5s and losing closely to weaker 3.5s would indicate low 3.5 near the bump down line. TR says 2.95, which around the line. Whether the USTA has you at 2.95 or 3.05 is within the margin of error for the TR calculation, so TR saying you're going to be bumped down does not necessarily mean you definitely are. The tournament match will help as well when it gets added in at the end of the year.

 

[Nostradamus]

Will UTR take over the ratings system in USTA computer ?? it is supposed to take over the ATP pros and College tennis ratings and rankings very soon, if not already.

 

[Alicia24]

Will UTR take over the ratings system in USTA computer ?? it is supposed to take over the ATP pros and College tennis ratings and rankings very soon, if not already.

What is UTR?

 

[Nostradamus]

What is UTR?

Universal tennis rating

https://myutr.com/

 

[OnTheLine]

Will UTR take over the ratings system in USTA computer ?? it is supposed to take over the ATP pros and College tennis ratings and rankings very soon, if not already.

Unless they get WAY better at differentiating between adult women players it would be a total waste. You can have women with NTRPs from 2.5-3.5 all with a UTR of 2. You can have 3.0-4.0 players all with a UTR of 3.

In it's current form, would be a disaster.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Oh, Alicia.

If you have a serve and groundstrokes that allow you to hang with guys who hit hard, you might well not be all that solid in ladies 3.5 doubles. It's a different game. The volley and the overhead and the ability to poach are keys, and personally I love to play women who love to hit pace from the baseline. I can hit deep and come in to volley.

If you are genuinely worried about your rating, the answer is to work on your net game and transition game. If you improve in those areas, you might get to 4.0.

And if you ignore your net game and focus on baseline bashing in singles, it is going to be a rude awakening when the day comes that you can't hang in singles anymore but have a poor volley. Tough way to make a living . . .