The latest things I've learned on the serve from Roger...

[Fintft]

Is to look up(and not at your feet) when the arms start the up together motion (this stabilizes my toss).

Then to keep the head up at impact and not see the serve hit the net (this gives me more pop on the serve).

The later comes from earlier reading here...

There are other things such as extending the tossing arm up and getting into the trophy fast - by the time the tossing arm is fully extended (and that's also when the knee bend is deepest). Throwing your arm/shoulder- hit the serve with an extended arm etc.

 

[sureshs]

You mean "serve cross the net?"

 

[Fintft]

You mean "serve cross the net?"

No, I mainly meant, lift your chin right away on the toss and then keep your head up at impact.

 

[WildVolley]

No, I mainly meant, lift your chin right away on the toss and then keep your head up at impact.

I think sureshs was implying that if your serve is hitting the net, then it really doesn't matter where you are looking, of course unless it bounces over and you get a let.:twisted:

 

[sureshs]

No, I was just trying to clarify the language.

 

[tennisdad65]

No, I mainly meant, lift your chin right away on the toss and then keep your head up at impact.

This also depends on your toss location, type of serve etc.. I agree that you have to keep your head up at impact and hit up on the ball. But, this is easier to do on twist and topspin serves.

Most club level players that hit slice and flat serves tend to drop their head, and hit forward only, rather than go up and hit it.

 

[Fintft]

No, I was just trying to clarify the language.

You are not talking about my post, aren't you, but maybe about the strings tension in the signature?

B/c in my post I actually meant that probably one is not supposed to see the serve if it hits the net (same way one is not supposed to see if his ground strokes hit the net, if one keeps eyes at contact point through the contact/head still)....

 

[Fintft]

This also depends on your toss location, type of serve etc.. I agree that you have to keep your head up at impact and hit up on the ball. But, this is easier to do on twist and topspin serves.

Most club level players that hit slice and flat serves tend to drop their head, and hit forward only, rather than go up and hit it.

Exactly (and that's something I had earlier on this forum), but the first thing that caught my eye about Roger this week, was the fact that he doesn't look down at this feet when he starts the toss (hands going up together)...Neither does Djokovic for that matter etc.
They look at their opponents and then up, towards where they want to place the toss.

 

[comeback]

On of the biggest things Roger does on his serve is that he holds the platform stance (both feet stay in place) until the end . Then he jumps onto the court. Many pros use it but many don't . i tried it for a while but it is vert difficult to keep your balance and get power. I use the pinpoint stance which is when the back foot comes around to meet the front foot.

 

[Fintft]

On of the biggest things Roger does on his serve is that he holds the platform stance (both feet stay in place) until the end . Then he jumps onto the court. Many pros use it but many don't . i tried it for a while but it is vert difficult to keep your balance and get power. I use the pinpoint stance which is when the back foot comes around to meet the front foot.

Or you cloud slide the back foot (at times or always), like in the other thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=8197506#post8197506

 

[crash1929]

I don't understand your first point. You were keeping your eyes on your feet when you tossed the ball???
"Is to look up(and not at your feet) when the arms start the up together motion (this stabilizes my toss)."

 

[Fintft]

I don't understand your first point. You were keeping your eyes on your feet when you tossed the ball???
"Is to look up(and not at your feet) when the arms start the up together motion (this stabilizes my toss)."

At the beginning of the toss, my eyes used to be at the hands/raquet, but Roger doesn't do that. He is looking forward (at his opponent?) then up (after the " down together", when he starts the "up together" and although I had tried that occasionally in the past, only now it clicked).

 

[comeback]

Or you cloud slide the back foot (at times or always), like in the other thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=8197506#post8197506

Yes i do the cloud slide to the pinpoint..Raonic and Federer hold the platform stance then jump.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I believe that most high level servers are not looking at the ball at impact on the serve. Some like Tsonga may be looking ta the ball at impact.

The best way to see this is with a high speed video from the side. See side views:
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos

Some players seem to look up at an angle from the side. Camera angles are tricky for seeing if the server is looking at the ball.

It is sometime difficult to rule out that they may have their eyes looking up at an extreme angle. Try looking up at the racket from the head positions that can be observed in high speed videos when the racket in on the ball. The head position changes significantly on millisecond time scales so you have to know that the racket is on the ball in the video you are examining.

Tsonga appears to look at the ball and move his head very rapidly and smoothly.

https://vimeo.com/89414063
Tsonga even appears to track the outgoing serve with his head motion. ?
https://vimeo.com/89412845

https://vimeo.com/89414061

https://vimeo.com/89414062
Close up. Head translating forward can be seen against the background.
https://vimeo.com/89414060

Almagro, on the other hand - looks as if the sun might have been a factor.
https://vimeo.com/89422310
Another
https://vimeo.com/72167895

 

[goeblack]

It is always interesting to see how fast people can disregard what the OP,s of a thread are trying to convey.

There is wisdom here. I too once looked down at the baseline when starting my serve routine. When my serve had problems it was always related to the toss.

The wisdom in the point being made by the OP, is that one should look up at the point of release of the toss. This should start the serve routine.

 

[LeeD]

Makes sense to look UP.
But, you look down at your feet to check your feetstance. Then you look at the opponent to see if he's ready.
Then, you look up to visualize the target of your toss.

 

[Chas Tennis]

....................................................
The wisdom in the point being made by the OP, is that one should look up at the point of release of the toss. This should start the serve routine.

That is probably a good start but the head in a high level serve moves forward quite a bit and there are other issues. And the eyes are most often not on the ball at impact for the high level serve. So I disagree with "Then to keep the head up at impact....." based on my viewing many high speed videos from the side. Some high level servers might look at the ball but most don't. It might well be better for recreation level servers to look at the ball at impact. We are talking millisecond timing here for the high level servers. See Tsonga videos for head movement.

Keep in mind that Tsonga is the rarer pro server who might keep his eye on the ball until impact. Milliseconds later he is looking down as the videos show.

Most of the side view video impact don't show pro players looking up at the ball. Typical side view at impact -

I have not looked at the lady pros on this issue.

Servers should understand these issues if their objective is to copy a high level serve.

1) the head moves forward quite a bit in the serve between the toss and impact. See the Toly Frank Salazar overhead composite pictures from FYB videos that are the best thing on the internet to display this.
2) the ball moves forward in the toss to an unknown degree that probably varies for servers and serve types.
3) for most high level servers the head usually tilts downward very rapidly to the degree that it usually prevents keeping the eye on the ball at impact. Tsonga is one of those servers who may keep their eye on the ball until impact. But look at the rapidity of his head movement in reply #14 . This is probably done to relieve stress on the neck.

There are Salazar spin serves pictures, copied from FYB videos.

The balls tosses are completely different.
1. Kick serve – contact point is above Salazar’s head.
2. Slice serve – contact point is above Salazar’s shoulder.
There are no identical tosses in pro tennis for different spin serves. :shock:

BTW, Look at Salazar's head position at impact. His brow blocks looking at impact.

 

[LeeD]

You DO know, the reason you look back down is to track your outgoing ball so you can react to where it goes and the kind of return you are getting, right?
Even golfer's look out to their outgoing ball, to track it and see where it's going to land, but also to ingrain some memory for the result of that given swing.
Nobody keeps his eyes up at where the impact location is, because it don't really matter once you learn to toss and hit.

 

[Fintft]

Makes sense to look UP.
But, you look down at your feet to check your feetstance. Then you look at the opponent to see if he's ready.
Then, you look up to visualize the target of your toss.

Yeah, I believe that what Federer was basically doing, while I was lingerring too much looking down (and although I had tried in the past to look up, I had given up on that approach before this weekend).

 

[Fintft]

That is probably a good start but the head in a high level serve moves forward quite a bit and there are other issues. And the eyes are most often not on the ball at impact for the high level serve. So I disagree with "Then to keep the head up at impact....." based on my viewing many high speed videos from the side. Some high level servers might look at the ball but most don't. It might well be better for recreation level servers to look at the ball at impact. We are talking millisecond here for the high level servers. See Tsonga videos for head movement.

Keep in mind that Tsonga is the rarer pro server who might keep his eye on the ball until impact. Milliseconds later he is looking down as the videos show. Most of the side view video impact don't show pro players looking up at the ball.

I have not looked at the lady pros on this issue.

Servers should understand these issues if their objective is to copy a high level serve.

1) the head moves forward quite a bit in the serve between the toss and impact. See Toly Frank Salazar overhead composite pictures from FYB videos are the best thing on the internet to display this.
2) the ball moves forward in the toss to an unknown degree that probably varies for servers and serve types.
3) for most high level servers the head usually tilts downward very rapidly to the degree that it usually prevents keeping the eye on the ball. Tsonga is one of those servers who may keep their eye on the ball until impact. But look at the rapidity of his head movement in reply # . This is probably done to relieve stress on the neck.

Thanks Chas I appreciate your input and I think understand the differences (I read about this head up at impact for recreational players vs. pros before, here), especially to relieve stress on the neck.

During my limited experiece with keeping the head up at impact (one serving practice), I think that I've achieved more pop and better %, but I'll keep an eye on this issue in the future(starting today).

 

[Fintft]

It is always interesting to see how fast people can disregard what the OP,s of a thread are trying to convey.

There is wisdom here. I too once looked down at the baseline when starting my serve routine. When my serve had problems it was always related to the toss.

The wisdom in the point being made by the OP, is that one should look up at the point of release of the toss. This should start the serve routine.

Thank you Sir for your support, although it's true that I had a second point that I've raised in this post (about looking at the ball at impact and keeping the head up) and I also welcome comments/tips on that one as well...

 

[Chas Tennis]

Thanks Chas I appreciate your input and I think understand the differences (I read about this head up at impact for recreational players vs. pros before, here), especially to relieve stress on the neck.

During my limited experiece with keeping the head up at impact (one serving practice), I think that I've achieved more pop and better %, but I'll keep an eye on this issue in the future(starting today).

Take videos of your serve from the side. I believe that you can comfortably look at the ball but you will limit the forward body bend that moves the head forward and I believe that the pros are most often using.

I like looking at the ball at impact for the serve. I believe that you can hit more accurately. I believe that the ATP pros usually don't do it because they rapidly bend forward more than most recreation players do.

Look at the Tsonga videos to get an idea of the timing the pros are using both for their arm and racket but also for their heads. The time between each frame at 240 fps is 4.2 milliseconds.

 

[Fintft]

Take videos of your serve from the side. I believe that you can comfortably look at the ball but you will limit the forward body bend that moves the head forward and I believe that the pros are most often using.

I like looking at the ball at impact for the serve. I believe that you can hit more accurately. I believe that the ATP pros usually don't do it because that they rapidly bend forward more that most recreation players do.

Look at the Tsonga videos to get an idea of the timing the pros are using both for their arm and racket but also for their heads. The time between each frame at 240 fps is 4.2 milliseconds.

Thanks again and on the other hand I was just thinking that most probably I don't bend forward enough (not to mention rapidly) - Although that's another thing that can lead to injuries, isn't it? I think I heard that a commentator (Konning) not liking that about Sharpova's new serve last year or so...

I will also look at Tsonga's video from home(thanks again!), although I kinda stopped using him as a model for serve, with his delayed racket arm (since I'm very slow to get into the trophy myself, hence hard to do the proper racket head drop/back scratching/ the "eight" figure as I call it, etc)

 

[hawk eye]

That is probably a good start but the head in a high level serve moves forward quite a bit and there are other issues. And the eyes are most often not on the ball at impact for the high level serve. So I disagree with "Then to keep the head up at impact....." based on my viewing many high speed videos from the side. Some high level servers might look at the ball but most don't. It might well be better for recreation level servers to look at the ball at impact. We are talking millisecond timing here for the high level servers. See Tsonga videos for head movement.

Keep in mind that Tsonga is the rarer pro server who might keep his eye on the ball until impact. Milliseconds later he is looking down as the videos show.

On first sight i couldn't figure out what is happening in that pic, put it seems very much that Tsonga's racket is clamped between the legs of the woman with the orange skirt.