The real key to success in tennis isn't about ...
- Thread starter E46luver
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Steady Eddy
Legend
Got this idea from an expert golfing friend of mine. People know he's an excellent golfer but when they golf with him they're surprised that his drives aren't that booming. In fact, they don't see him doing anything special, but when they look at the scorecard, they lost by 20 strokes.
He's good at the other aspects of the game, especially the short game. He spent a lot of time practicing it. But, he points out, what do most people work on? Just on hitting long drives. To improve don't only work on drives, work on hitting targets at the range.
This is similar to tennis. When I'm asked to hit with somebody they just want to smack balls back and forth from the baseline. They act surprised if I suggest working on volleys or overheads. They way to get better is to keep expanding the number of shots you can do. It's tempting to only work on what you're already good at, but that's a mistake. Because of the law of diminishing returns, your forehand probably won't get much better, but you can improve by several factors on your, overheads, volleys, half volleys, and drop shots, if you start working on them.
I agree, mental toughness is important, but if you really don't have the strokes, you're not going to get them just by being mentally tough.
He's good at the other aspects of the game, especially the short game. He spent a lot of time practicing it. But, he points out, what do most people work on? Just on hitting long drives. To improve don't only work on drives, work on hitting targets at the range.
This is similar to tennis. When I'm asked to hit with somebody they just want to smack balls back and forth from the baseline. They act surprised if I suggest working on volleys or overheads. They way to get better is to keep expanding the number of shots you can do. It's tempting to only work on what you're already good at, but that's a mistake. Because of the law of diminishing returns, your forehand probably won't get much better, but you can improve by several factors on your, overheads, volleys, half volleys, and drop shots, if you start working on them.
I agree, mental toughness is important, but if you really don't have the strokes, you're not going to get them just by being mentally tough.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Probably because of what he doesn't do [ie hit into the trees, into the rough, into sandtraps, etc]. Just like a tennis player who doesn't make a lot of mistakes.
As the saying goes, "Drive for show, putt for dough."
I think the point is that no matter what your stroke quality is, mental toughness will determine how likely you'll be able to use the stroke: a mentally weak person can have great strokes but be unable to execute them under pressure.
To us a numerical example, let's say player A has a stroke quality of 9 and a mental toughness of 40%; B has a stroke quality of 6 but a mental toughness of 90%.
9*0.4 = 3.6
6*0.9 = 5.4
B wins.
A has the better tennis game but he's unable to fully utilize it due to mental toughness issues.
joffa101
New User
Nope. It is mostly footwork.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Nah. I don’t think I have ever played someone in a tournament or league match that had a worse forehand than me. Not once. If strokes actually mattered that much, I wouldn’t have a closet full of tennis trophies.
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Dragy
Legend
What if it’s 9*0.7?
Fedinkum
Legend
I always enjoy this passage found in the the last chapter of Tim Gallwey's The Inner Games of Tennis:
"When a player comes to recognise that learning to focus may be more valuable to him than a backhand, he shifts from being primarily a player of the outer game to being a player of the Inner Game. Then, instead of learning focus to improve his tennis, he practices tennis to improves his focus."
That was one of those light-bulb moments in my life.
"When a player comes to recognise that learning to focus may be more valuable to him than a backhand, he shifts from being primarily a player of the outer game to being a player of the Inner Game. Then, instead of learning focus to improve his tennis, he practices tennis to improves his focus."
That was one of those light-bulb moments in my life.
But ur backhand is better than many 4.5s I have seen. I feel having a decent cc bh is great for lower level rec.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Well, I guess you do need to have a reliable way to accurately put the ball where you want it. It doesn’t need to be pretty or qualify as a ‘stroke’ though.
Those cant put the ball back shouldnt worry about having a pretty shot.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Golf and tennis are both games where those that minimize their mistakes generally beat those with "prettier shots". When I realized golf was a game of precision and not distance, I became a much better golfer. That 18 handicap dropped to 8 pretty quickly. Keep the ball in the fairway, hit the ball on the middle of the green, 2 putt.
Tennis is not dissimilar. High first serve percentage, put the ball into that 6 foot space around the corners, finish the short balls.
All sports are about not breaking down mentally. Know very few people that "lose their minds" playing a game that are successful. That being said, you can be the most mentally strong person but if you don't know what you are doing, it only goes so far. Skills count for something too.
E46luver
Professional
Those with pretty strokes tend to have lower scores.
It is rare for the guy with jerky hack golf swing to beat the guy with a smooth swing.
Golf score is strongly correlated to a better swing. There is no such thing as a junker in golf.
Tennis score has almost zero correlation to mechanics which is why tennis players lose their minds when losing to a hacker pusher with garbage strokes.
This simply does not exist in golf. You can tell an 80s golfer from a 100s golfer with one swing.
No such thing in tennis. There are 3.5 players with 4.5 strokes and 4.0 players with 3.0 strokes
Golf does have a pusher aspect where you take the safer higher % shot over the risky one. Lay up vs. cut off the dog leg.
But, that is not about stroke mechanics but strategy and decision making.
Disagree with the last bit - you need a B game a C game in your locker when your A game is not on
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I've seen lots of senior players with self made golf strokes beat that lessoned up golfer with nice mechanics. They poke the ball down the fariway and beat them with the short game.
The guys with pretty strokes that have lower scores do so with their short game as well. They just have worked on both. The driving range hero with the 300 yard drive and no touch isn't beating anyone.
Show me your wedge play and I can better determine your handicap than looking at your full swing.
That's just another way of saying "minimizing your mistakes".
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Exactly. Success in tennis is about figuring out a way to still pull out a victory when your B- game is all you have to work with that day. I only have my A game available less than 10% of the time.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I have never played golf. If I ever start, I will take lessons as it sounds like it is more critical than tennis... How would you compare effectiveness of golf coaching vs tennis coaching? i.e., there are plenty of highly coached tennis players that never improve.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
The correlation between stroke mechanics and success is much stronger in golf because golfers stand in one place.
Tennis is a game of movement, so someone who is faster, more agile, and more athletic has a huge advantage that is often enough to overcome a relative deficiency in stroke mechanics. The need for movement and good court coverage in tennis also puts more of a premium on shot selection and strategy, because an athletic player can amplify his physical advantage by choosing his strategy and shot selection well.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
If I have never swung a club and take lessons, how likely is it that I can develop proper mechanics?
I think there are lots of coached tennis players that still have horrible swings... But that could be related to their coached strokes falling apart under pressure of running around.
E46luver
Professional
Golf is far easier to master than tennis.
And golf is not easy to learn. It takes a few years of dedication.
But, you can develop a decent swing with no lessons.
I have yet to meet someone with "junior" caliber tennis strokes who is self taught.
Yes, start with golf lessons. Lots of guys have jerky swings that are muscled.
Like tennis, those deep stroke habits will never be broken.
You will never develop clean tennis strokes by watching YouTube.
But, you might with golf.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
No. There are 3.5 players with sound mechanics.
I have taken clinics and the instructors videoed and analyzed the swings. Lots of 3.5 player with proper form on forehands... The result of their stroke may not have the power of a 4.5.
But the form is correct. These instructors gave a no nonsense analysis. Most swings were analyzed to be garbage. But there were definitely some 3.5 to 4.0 that got an A for proper form.
As already mentioned a 4.5 can have great results with self taught non textbook ugly jerky strokes, but in general, as you rise in level, the players will tend to have proper form.
The main difference between a 3.5 with proper form and a 4.5 with proper form is fitness and being able to produce/handle pace.
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travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Actually, I think the typical 3.5 can hit just as hard as the 4.5. The biggest difference between the 4.5 and the 3.5 is that the typical 4.5 has a pretty good awareness of his shot tolerance and will adjust his aim accordingly. The typical 3.5 will keep aiming 2 feet inside the corner and keep yelling in frustration when it misses.
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Are you serious? Golf is just hard as tennis. that's why golf is not a sport but is a skill game minus the physicality of tennis. I also played quite a bit of golf while staying at Cocoa beach and I can tell you it is hard but exciting.
Then its not 4.5 strokes. A 3.5 can swing a racquet to have similar mechanics like a 4.5. As a matter of fact, its not that hard to look like having good mechanics.
But to maintain that form when being pressed, moved from side to side, its a totally different story.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
3.5 with sound groundstroke form vs
4.5 with sound groundstroke form.
I have seen 3.5 players with sound form and beautiful awareness of shot tolerance and selection.
They do fine playing at their own level.
What I notice is that the lower level textbook stroke is overwhelmed with the incoming power of a 4.5 and likewise cannot generate power to trouble the 4.5...
I suspect much of this has to do with fitness and maybe that the 3.5 does not practice as much.
But the proper textbook groundstroke form is all there.
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E46luver
Professional
Not in my experience.
I was able to break 80 after 4 summers of dedicated playing and no lessons
(just tips from single handicap friends at the club)
Joining a private club accelerated the process drastically
Golf is far easier than tennis.
If you put in the time, you will get better.
People play tennis for 40 years and stay at 3.0
The same does not exist in golf
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. Golf, like most skills, can be improved with practice. Even if you start at an advanced age. Tennis (especially singles) doesn't work quite the same way due to physicality being such an important element.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
That’s how I the par golfers I know play. They hit boring drives up the middle, boring irons on the green a 2 putt tap in pars most holes. They usually get a few tap in bogeys and a few birdies. But in a foursome, they don’t look like they’re playing the hole the best. They don’t have longest drive. Their approach shots are in the middle of the green. They don’t hit many long putts. Just tap in pars. It looks pretty unspectacular. But it’s par golf.
Most of the good tennis players I know are the same. Tough spot serves, no double faults and easy volleys. From the baseline, they typically hit safe rally balls and either get an error from the opponent or a short ball they can easily win points on. It looks pretty unspectacular, but they always win.
These golfers / tennis players can hit as hard as anyone, but rarely do unless forced to for some reason. They only take the amount of risk necessary to win and no more.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I know there's such thing as 3.5 players. but
What the hell is "4.5 strokes"?
I know some 4.5 players who hit crappier strokes than some 3.5s (sometimes).
I know numbers like 3.5, 4.5 describe levels, not strokes. Strokes don't have numbers for ID. Whole performance achievement does.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
More fun to think of strokes as having their own ratings. As long as the ratings for the individual stroke and physical and mental components add up to the correct composite rating, then all good.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Do your games travel? Can you guys break 80 on any course? Or just your “home” course that you’ve played 100’s of times?
I’ve definitely known guys that are single digit handicap at their club and 10 strokes worse most anywhere else
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
Curse LeeD for starting all this. He rated users from watching a few minutes of "hitting" videos and it became a trend.
mental strength definitely has alot to do with winning.
I was playing 2 practice sets with a HS kid with UTR 6 today. I was far from my best, been practicing or playing for 20 days straight, some days twice, i was very tired.
During the sets today, HS kid was better than I in every technical aspect: serve, FH, BH...The only thing that I did better was: winning the point when i had a chance.
When we finished, i won 2 and 2, i thought to myself, it didnt feel that easy while we were playing. Kid definitely created more chances to win than i did. But i used mine better. simple as that.
I was playing 2 practice sets with a HS kid with UTR 6 today. I was far from my best, been practicing or playing for 20 days straight, some days twice, i was very tired.
During the sets today, HS kid was better than I in every technical aspect: serve, FH, BH...The only thing that I did better was: winning the point when i had a chance.
When we finished, i won 2 and 2, i thought to myself, it didnt feel that easy while we were playing. Kid definitely created more chances to win than i did. But i used mine better. simple as that.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
LeeD takes credit for a lot of things in his incredible Forrest Gump-like march through Bay Area tennis history, but I don’t know if I can give him this one.
1stVolley
Professional
'Success in tennis' is how you define it. Some people feel that a successful match is simply one yielding a good workout. Others feel it is winning with whatever it takes, including being a pusher. Others feel it is winning by blasting the opponent off the court. Some insure success by playing opponents they can beat easily. A few will seek out better players and may feel success if they can lose by only 4-6, 4-6. I also can feel successful if I incorporate a new technique or strategy even if I can't quite yet win with it (but at least get pretty close for now).
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
The kid probably went home and quit tennis after that.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
"Stroke ratings" came from the old NTRP rating classifications. Was more just general guides and I think was supposed to be for self-rating over anything else . Actual ratings are just level based on performance. I understand both, but really when someone asks what is your rating it is your playing rating.
Meh. Not sure why people get bent with all the rating stuff.
Meh. Not sure why people get bent with all the rating stuff.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
So true. And for some "success in tennis" is how you can get away from the wife.
(speaking from my friend's experience
)haha hope he doesn't. kid will learn. good shot selection and grits go a long way in match play.
D
Deleted member 768841
Guest
What’s the wardlaw directional? Btw nice message, played a game today and for some reason when I was down 6-2 in the tiebreak I got a random burst of energy and want to win, but I lost 6-7.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
Great quote, that's why I play tennis now
D
Deleted member 768841
Guest
It’s funny, my coach knew Tim(I think it was Tim, it was some guy who thought about the psychology of tennis) during the 70’s, And he thought he was an absolute quack. He was invited to go to some sort of inner recognition thing, and they sat around a candle smoking pot and talking about tennis. I’m not kidding, that happened.
1stVolley
Professional
Not me!! I've been happily married for 38 years...and now I'm completely programmed. "Yes dear, you're absolutely right, dear; anything you say dear."So true. And for some "success in tennis" is how you can get away from the wife.
(speaking from my friend's experience
Fedinkum
Legend
Sounds like they were having a good time to me!
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
You can't beat anyone in golf with fitness alone. So golf is more a skill oriented game. In that, lessons and instruction make a big difference. But concentrating on the full swing only is like a tennis player focusing only on the serve. You will do well with a good golf swing but you only become a scratch golfer when you can master the short game and mental game.
Breaking 80 in golf is like 4.0 in tennis. I'm sure most young guys that play 4 summers of dedicated tennis at a private club can get to 4.0. I'd say golf and tennis are similar difficulties skill wise. I'd say tennis is tougher fitness wise. Golf is a lot more like doubles tennis. Singles is a different beast. That's why doubles is the predominant rec tennis sport.
Very good topic. For the 98% of us who are not advanced players, we all have strengths and weaknesses. You can have a big-serve, but lack touch-and-feel at the net. Or maybe you can hit a crushing-forehand, but can't chase down balls, etc. Either way, I do believe mental toughness makes a difference, especially when playing under pressure. Just like golf, it's so easy to lose focus!
You can have a big-serve, but lack touch-and-feel at the net. Or maybe you can hit a crushing-forehand, but can't chase down balls, etc. Either way, I do believe mental toughness makes a difference, especially when playing under pressure. Just like golf, it's so easy to lose focus!
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I can only break 80 on certain courses that suit my game. There are courses with similar ratings as those courses and I can't break 90 on them. Any Pete Dye course tends to give me fits. I'm better on courses with wider fairways and trouble near the greens as well as courses that require course management. I don't really have a home course but I have favorites largely because they suit my game and require some thinking to score well.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Short game looks like fun but
hitting and driving that little ball long distance looks incredibly difficult! I may completely whiff.
