The Ugly American

[Robert Jones]

What if she was purple or green?

If she were black, she'd be criticized for being a drug using lady of the night and ridiculed for being allowed to play tennis.

 

[C_Urala]

LOL you silly fool. Only the cheap Calvin Klein POS is made in China, mainly to target the market of clueless consumers like you. Calvin Klein's couture runway pieces have never been soiled by sweatshop hands. As far as ready-to-wear, his 'Black Label' will never stink of soy sauce either. Nice try.. go back to old navy!

'silly fool' ? As if a fool can be clever. :shock:

And I don't understand this "go back to old navy" Is it an idiom? :roll:

 

[C_Urala]

C_Urala wrote:


And both Nike and Calvin Klein are made in China. There is nothing american left in these products except the names.

Someone from still the largest country all over the world.


LOL you silly fool. Only the cheap Calvin Klein POS is made in China, mainly to target the market of clueless consumers like you. Calvin Klein's couture runway pieces have never been soiled by sweatshop hands. As far as ready-to-wear, his 'Black Label' will never stink of soy sauce either. Nice try.. go back to old navy!

To C_Urala, but most of the profit go to Nike and CK. Even if they are made in China, consumers are buy American pop culture. BTW, 50% of US GDP, is not service releated, meaning Americans still manufacture more than anyone else.

People in China make a product, "but most of the profit go to Nike and CK." And you wonder about antiamericanism!

I'm not sure that "50% of US GDP is not service related" means "Americans still manufacture more than anyone else."
To me, it means that American economy produces more goods than services. This index includes the sum of values added.
So, if you made one aircraft-carrier, you can buy all your clothing abroad and still have high GPD.
I guess you should have remember another index. But I'm not an economist..

 

[Phil]

So, if you made one aircraft-carrier, you can buy all your clothing abroad and still have high GPD.
I guess you should have remember another index. But I'm not an economist.

Yes, aircraft carriers are good for that.

 

[C_Urala]

-Chanchai, you have obviously never read a history book or even bothered to read a newspaper. there is nothing that i stated that isnt the truth. what happens if france or wny other free country gets invaded, who gets the first call for help? it has always been that way, whether its money or military help.

i wonder if many europeans would have such snotty attitudes if they were being forced to listen to wagner right now by their german masters...ingrates

Don't delude yourself, without the Second Front, europeans would being forced to listen to Glinka, though it's not such a torture, per se.

 

[PugArePeopleToo]

People in China make a product, "but most of the profit go to Nike and CK." And you wonder about antiamericanism!

Instead of Nike, CK, lets use Addidas, Volkl or Wilson, Chinese made the products but Europeans made most of the money. I suppose there is anti Europeanism somewhere in your mind.

I'm not sure that "50% of US GDP is not service related" means "Americans still manufacture more than anyone else."
To me, it means that American economy produces more goods than services. This index includes the sum of values added.

Since when is an item made without value being added?

if you made one aircraft-carrier, you can buy all your clothing abroad and still have high GPD.

Exactly. It's call comparative advantage.

But I'm not an economist

You are right.

 

[nomalt]

Everyone is make really valid points! But you know what really bugs me? When jcap wears that silly little headband!

 

[mileslong]

c_urala, the allies would have won world war II with or without the eastern front. it simply would have taken longer. without it the us probably would have bombed hiroshima earlier and then could move the asian front to fight the germans as well. either scenario the allies would eventually prevail.

I suggest you ask Marcello Rios who - in your own words - 'threw the crap to the fan' in Santiago 30 years ago.

aames, i have never said those words in my life, must have been someone else...

 

[Ronaldo]

JenCap has to take this further, disparage the french mob during a press conference, wear red, white, and blue on the court, and really get the crowd involved.

 

[Phil]

Don't delude yourself, without the Second Front, europeans would being forced to listen to Glinka, though it's not such a torture, per se.

And without Lend/Lease trucks, aircraft, ships, uniforms, ammo, guns and food, the Russians, the few million that survive, would be listening to Wagner and throwing down Spaten Braus instead of their beloved Vodka.

Sorry, had to get that in...

 

[rafael]

People in China make a product, "but most of the profit go to Nike and CK." And you wonder about antiamericanism!

China is a really bad example for what you are aiming at. China's current economic success is based upon their willingness to be "competitive" on the global market. It is their choice to allow American companies to "take advantage" of their working populace.

 

[david aames]

Miles,

keep an eye on your kids, they must have a tendency to login under your name and post silly things left and right – you certainly don't want to be on record for something you never really meant in the first place...

my point is that say what you want about americans. when the crap hits the fan we are the first ones people look to bail them out. then after we save their ass we are the first ones they cut down...pathetic...

we didnt ask to be the worlds policeman but who else is going to do it? france? LMAO!!!

 

[C_Urala]

People in China make a product, "but most of the profit go to Nike and CK." And you wonder about antiamericanism!

China is a really bad example for what you are aiming at. China's current economic success is based upon their willingness to be "competitive" on the global market. It is their choice to allow American companies to "take advantage" of their working populace.

I think we'd better ask those from the 'populace', if it was their 'choice'. If you have to do something, it doesn't mean you love to do this. Just the opposite, you hate to do this but you have to. So, I don't see logical flaws in this post of mine.

 

[C_Urala]

Don't delude yourself, without the Second Front, europeans would being forced to listen to Glinka, though it's not such a torture, per se.

And without Lend/Lease trucks, aircraft, ships, uniforms, ammo, guns and food, the Russians, the few million that survive, would be listening to Wagner and throwing down Spaten Braus instead of their beloved Vodka.

Sorry, had to get that in...

There is nothing to be sorry about.
How many percents were these aircrafts of all aircrafts produced in the SU during the WWII?
And then.
Trucks, aircrafts etc. can not win a war themselves. It's people who can. Were all those items of help for Soviets? Of course, they were. Were they determinative? Of course, they weren't.

 

[C_Urala]

c_urala, the allies would have won world war II with or without the eastern front. it simply would have taken longer. without it the us probably would have bombed hiroshima earlier and then could move the asian front to fight the germans as well. either scenario the allies would eventually prevail.

The WWII begun on the 1st of Sept, 1939, when Germany invaded into Poland. So, without the Eastern front, there would be no war at all, by definition.

 

[C_Urala]

People in China make a product, "but most of the profit go to Nike and CK." And you wonder about antiamericanism!

Instead of Nike, CK, lets use Addidas, Volkl or Wilson, Chinese made the products but Europeans made most of the money. I suppose there is anti Europeanism somewhere in your mind.

You're right. In Russia, many people do not distinguish the US from Western Europe. They call them the West. And there IS anti Westism there.

I'm not sure that "50% of US GDP is not service related" means "Americans still manufacture more than anyone else."
To me, it means that American economy produces more goods than services. This index includes the sum of values added.

Since when is an item made without value being added?

When did I say this?

But I'm not an economist

You are right.

I know. I'm always right. :wink:

 

[Phil]

There is nothing to be sorry about.
How many percents were these aircrafts of all aircrafts produced in the SU during the WWII?
And then.
Trucks, aircrafts etc. can not win a war themselves. It's people who can. Were all those items of help for Soviets? Of course, they were. Were they determinative? Of course, they weren't.

Yes, of course the people won that war, but they couldn't very well use their hands, could they? I would not say that $11 BILLION worth of military equipment GIVEN to the USSR (including the basis of the entire Soviet Navy-they had none before) was not "determinative" in the outcome of the war. Calculate $11 billion in today's currency-probably around $150-$200 BILLION. Your history books, of course, will make little or no mention this MASSIVE contribution. That would be, ahh....an embarrassing admission.

And don't forget-when Germany invaded Poland on 9/1/39, the USSR was invading and annexing the eastern half of Poland, as per the PACT made between Stalin and Hitler. Anyway, that's water under the bridge now. Back to tennis!!!

 

[C_Urala]

BTW, that thread about "french racism" has finally been deleted.
I hope this one will go to the same garbage bin.

 

[Phil]

Yes, the best way to resolve something you don't like is to run away from it, or have someone hide it/take it away (censorship). That is what some cultures do.

If you don't like it, if you can't HANG, then don't become a MAJOR PART OF IT, as you have on this thread as one of the main paricipants, and then biatch about how horrible it is, all the while INCITING much of the discussion. That's a very hypocritical and cowardly position to take. If you would prefer reading about the string bed density of the Yonex RDX, then by all means, take yourself right over to the racquet board.

 

[C_Urala]

I would not say that $11 BILLION worth of military equipment GIVEN to the USSR (including the basis of the entire Soviet Navy-they had none before) was not "determinative" in the outcome of the war. Calculate $11 billion in today's currency-probably around $150-$200 BILLION. Your history books, of course, will make little or no mention this MASSIVE contribution. That would be, ahh....an embarrassing admission.

And don't forget-when Germany invaded Poland on 9/1/39, the USSR was invading and annexing the eastern half of Poland, as per the PACT made between Stalin and Hitler. Anyway, that's water under the bridge now. Back to tennis!!!

Apparently, we read different books. Prove, that yours are better.

You can sell one truck for $11 billions. I mean that using costs can be misleading. BTW, Russia still has to pay about $700 millions for something "GIVEN". This help was important but hardly determinative.

And don't forget that the PACT was signed after breakdown of talks about anti-Hitler coalition. Yet, the fact remains. The WWII begun on the Eastern front.

Let's back to tennis. Just let's avoid national generalizations.

 

[C_Urala]

Yes, the best way to resolve something you don't like is to run away from it, or have someone hide it/take it away (censorship). That is what some cultures do.

If you don't like it, if you can't HANG, then don't become a MAJOR PART OF IT, as you have on this thread as one of the main paricipants, and then biatch about how horrible it is, all the while INCITING much of the discussion. That's a very hypocritical and cowardly position to take. If you would prefer reading about the string bed density of the Yonex RDX, then by all means, take yourself right over to the racquet board.

"That is what some cultures do." Apparently, this time it's American culture.

Actually, I start to like this thread. But the beginning of it is a shame. I became a major part of the discussion, but it diverted it from those 'ugly american' insults. You should appreciate it.
And even if my posts can be considered INCITING (which I doubt) they are not any INSULTING (like yours).

 

[Phil]

If you were insulted by my posts, then you are a very sensitive individual who is unable to look past the surface and read my posts for what they are. Too bad. I actually thought better of you, based on your comments in other threads. Of course you INCITED some of the discussion on this thread-and that's not a bad thing-I did the same thing; as they say in the US military, "Either Lead, Follow or get the fu*k out of the way." You and I are not so different in that respect, in this thread, at least. It's just hypocritical to DO THAT, and then step back and cry censorship.

 

[C_Urala]

If you were insulted by my posts, then you are a very sensitive individual who is unable to look past the surface and read my posts for what they are. Too bad. I actually thought better of you, based on your comments in other threads. Of course you INCITED some of the discussion on this thread-and that's not a bad thing-I did the same thing; as they say in the US military, "Either Lead, Follow or get the fu*k out of the way." You and I are not so different in that respect, in this thread, at least. It's just hypocritical to DO THAT, and then step back and cry censorship.

It's not hypocritical, it's selfless to call for cencorship after spending all this time in an attempt to prove my point. "Russians can be more annoying than any American" (you are a close match and you are right we are "not so different in that respect")

 

[Phil]

It's not hypocritical, it's selfless to call for cencorship after spending all this time in an attempt to prove my point.

I see. So in other words, since you've failed (or you feel you have) to prove your point here, you've decided that NO ONE should continue the discussion. Better that the entire discussion just go away, because it's just a painful reminder of your defeat. "Selfless"? You misspelled it; the word you're looking for is SELFISH.

These are opinions, and if you look at it as a defeat, which I don't, then you should just move on, and not ruin the discussion for non-defeated posters. Simply put, try not to be a sourpuss, a killjoy, a poor loser, etc. Not to stereotype, but in Western culture, a debate invites all types of opinions. More than one opinion can be "right", or none at all. That's the beauty of it. In your culture, or what was Soviet culture, free and open debate was frowned on, and suppressed for the good of maintaining the delusions of Socialist "truths". The state could not permit people to sow doubt and counter-revolutionary thoughts, thus weakening what was already a weak system of beliefs that could only survive by terror and force. Times have changed, my friend. Get thee a clue.

 

[C_Urala]

I see. So in other words, since you've failed (or you feel you have) to prove your point here, you've decided that NO ONE should continue the discussion. Better that the entire discussion just go away, because it's just a painful reminder of your defeat. "Selfless"? You misspelled it; the word you're looking for is SELFISH.

You see it wrong. Quite the contrary, I feel that I did prove my point, and that's why it's not a misprint.
It's namely selfless to wish to destroy something ugly (the beginning of this thread IS ugly) despite the fact that this will also destroy the products of my own labor.

" Simply put, try not to be a sourpuss, a killjoy, a poor loser, etc. "

And what should I find "past the surface" of this ?

" Not to stereotype, but in Western culture, a debate invites all types of opinions. More than one opinion can be "right", or none at all. That's the beauty of it."

What is a beauty in calling Americans "ugly" or the French "racist shmucks"?

"In your culture, or what was Soviet culture, free and open debate was frowned on, and suppressed for the good of maintaining the delusions of Socialist "truths". The state could not permit people to sow doubt and counter-revolutionary thoughts, thus weakening what was already a weak system of beliefs that could only survive by terror and force. Times have changed, my friend. Get thee a clue."

Really upside down.
"Times have changed" but you speak on and on about something that does not exist. Maybe you failed to note but there is no SU for almost 15 years, that there are about a dozen political organisations in Russian Duma (as compared to 2 in the US Senate).
And please, try to read just MY words and do not look past the surface of them. There is nothing there, but you always manage to find something, which I never put there.

 

[esquimaux]

I haven't seen the weed bust mugshot

 

[JediWill]

Woah, there, guys.

You guys are getting so carried away... >.>; I am an American, and I actually like the fact that JCap doesn't conform to the norm and follow tennis etiquette. It provides for drama and controversy, and I'm entertained. But don't let her telling the French crowd, "Shut up!" which she did numerous times throughout several of the matches shown on ESPN, get you so upset. I mean, it's one thing to call her unsportsmanlike and so forth, it's all well and good, but for God's sake draw the line when you start bringing all of America, China, and Europe into this socio-political debate. It's completely unnecessary. Why are we discussing WWII? Why are we insulting each other's cultures and calling them racists? And as far as whoever it said that mentioned if Capriati was black, then she would be a ****, druggie, and booed of the court? That's ridiculous. Guy's we all have cultural differences, people view things differently. The French Crowd likes to get involved in their tennis. That's no different than at a baseball game, football game, soccer game, basketball game, hockey game, lacrosse game, and just about any other sport I can think of... People enjoy expressing their emotions, and it just so happens the French aren't as restrained as other people. And when someone responds to the French boos (and perhaps jeers), they get named a classless witch? Come on guys, she was just defending her own pride. It's a natural human response...

Basically my point here is to get over the cultural barriers and just enjoy the tennis and stop going at each other's throat over the issue of national pride. And if you don't enjoy the game, don't watch. I'm sure there is something better you could do with your time than sit on your couch and watch a tennis match! Get out there and play yourself!

Will

 

[C_Urala]

Will, actually I agree with everything you said.

"Why are we discussing WWII? Why are we insulting each other's cultures and calling them racists?"

Phill would say it's because it's funny and then would preach about advantages of the western way of living.

I do it (discussing, not insulting) because it's the only way for me to destroy this discussion - to divert it into something completely irrelevant to tennis.

"Basically my point here is to get over the cultural barriers and just enjoy the tennis and stop going at each other's throat over the issue of national pride."

If anybody hurts my national pride I will not keep silence. But I can stop right here, right now if other do the same.

 

[ismashall]

hmm. national pride.

 

[Phil]

Why don't you just put a lid on it now, C_Urala? YOU wanted this discussion canned, but somehow, YOU just can't stay away. You mention my name, after I've "left the party"? Fine. If you're that obsessed with me and can't get my words out of your head, then I've made an impact, right? But I'm done, really. National Pride? You want an example of MISGUIDED national pride, there are many, but you'll find the best one right in your own backyard, in Chechnya. Ask President Putin how many young Russians have been slaughtered due to "national pride".

 

[C_Urala]

Why don't you just put a lid on it now, C_Urala? YOU wanted this discussion canned, but somehow, YOU just can't stay away. You mention my name, after I've "left the party"? Fine. If you're that obsessed with me and can't get my words out of your head, then I've made an impact, right? But I'm done, really. National Pride? You want an example of MISGUIDED national pride, there are many, but you'll find the best one right in your own backyard, in Chechnya. Ask President Putin how many young Russians have been slaughtered due to "national pride".

There was a question asked, and I answered. It's about 'putting the lid'.

I have repeated several times, why I want this discussion deleted AND continue to post here. No need to do it again.

You hadn't announced you've "left the party". And I was sure you would reply. I was right.

The situation in Chechnya is about the national pride just to the very same extent as the situation in Iraq.

Except that Chechnya is a republic inside the Russian Federation, whereas Iraq was a sovereignty before US invaded it (without a UNO resolution).

 

[C_Urala]

hmm. national pride.

If I deciphered your hmm correctly. :?

Yes. There is a very thin line between the national pride and chauvinism. So, to avoid crossing it, let's stop any generalizations on the national basis.

 

[Phil]

I have repeated several times, why I want this discussion deleted AND continue to post here. No need to do it again.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. As for Chechnya, it may be part of Russia, but that doesn't mean you send an army in and level every town and city in the region and commit countless attrocities, and still end up getting a beat down. Not much to be PROUD OF, except for long-dead writers (some of the best ever), composers and a few dancers.

 

[C_Urala]

I have repeated several times, why I want this discussion deleted AND continue to post here. No need to do it again.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sorry?

 

[ismashall]

I have repeated several times, why I want this discussion deleted AND continue to post here. No need to do it again.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sorry?

It's an expression. Look it up. It relates to something in history...

 

[C_Urala]

I have repeated several times, why I want this discussion deleted AND continue to post here. No need to do it again.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sorry?

It's an expression. Look it up. It relates to something in history...

Oh, thanks. I've found an explanation.
Apparently, it's not the case.
I definitely CAN have my cake (I can post here) until I eat it (until the thread is deleted).

Moreover, I have my cake and I WANT to eat it. No contradiction

 

[Phil]

You have neither. You have FAILED to convince anyone of your point, whatever that is/was, and you have FAILED to convince the board moderators to delete this thread. Total failure is the exact opposite of having your cake and eating it too; I guess in your case it would equate to going without desert. If the thread is somehow deleted now, it will be because no one cares-it's irrelevant and so are your comments.

 

[C_Urala]

"You have FAILED to convince anyone of your point."

Don't speak on behalf of everyone. Please.

"and you have FAILED to convince the board moderators to delete this thread."

Night is still young.

"If the thread is somehow deleted now, it will be because no one cares-it's irrelevant and so are your comments."

Finally, you got my point. BTW your comments are also there.

 

[ismashall]

somebody sure is obsessed with getting the last word.

 

[Sacco]

One thing that is interesting about Chechnya, is how the U.S. Government and media before 9/11/2001 sided with Chechnya and said what the Russian's were doing amounted to genocide, but after 9/11 did a sudden a-bout face and claimed that Chechnya was a terrorist regime. It is only logical they this to justify their illegal occupation against Iraq and gain an ally in Russia, not to mention the racial implications.

What's good for the goose... oh F*CK that, F*ck all governments.

 

[chad shaver]

thanks for bringing up a thread that's been dead for 4 months....

 

[mlee2]

Sacco,

Chechnya and Russia have done equally dispicable things towards each other in this "civil war" of theirs.

Russia has absolutely devistated the city of Grozny. It's quoted as being one of the biggest decimations of a city since...ever. Russia has destroyed any chance for Chechnya to be a legitimate government with constant assassination attempts.

Meanwhile Chechens have rightfully been branded as terrorists as they will (without conscience) butcher women and children.

I've literally seen videos of Chechens laugh their ass off on tape while thousands of their victims are murdered in the most masochistic way imaginable.

 

[K!ck5w3rvE]

Funny, you never hear the terms: ugly Brit (Henman), ugly Chilean(Ríos), ugly Croatian (Ivanisevic), ugly Russian(Safin), ugly Italian (Cecchini).

My comments
Henman:
Who cares about this 'ugly Brit'? Who likes him for a reason other than because he is the only good s-v player around? Henman=who cares.

Rios
Rios was always good for a quote, usually regarding the state of women's tennis. I would leave him alone if you know whats best for you. Also, I wouldn't call him the 'ugly Chilean' with guys like Massu around.

Ivanisevic
see above

Safin
You call him the 'ugly Russian', but I'd like to see you try and pull chicks like he can. I'm specifically referring to his AOpen bench of 'family' when he lost to Thomas Johansson in the final.

Cecchini
As a final word of advice to you, I would strongly advise that you were on the side of italians, not against them. Bolognaise, smoke, cars, guns.......have fun against the mafia.

Just my thoughts...

 

[pound cat]

And if Phoebe Henman, Natasha Safin, Janna Ivanisevic, Julia Rios, & Maria Ceccini were tennis players & acted like these guys someitmes do on the court, they'd be ugly. And if Capriati was a guy, she's be known as a "character".

 

[chad shaver]

K!ck5w3rvE,

You didn't happen to read the DATE on that post, did you? Massu hadn't begun to take the spotlight with his antics BACK THEN.

Do you happen to understand what the use of the term "ugly" is, here?

You just equated all Italians to the Mafia. Good job shooting your own credibility in the foot. Just in case you're wondering, they call that a prejudice.

 

[K!ck5w3rvE]

Good job shooting your own credibility in the foot. Just in case you're wondering, they call that a prejudice.

Yes prejudice, silly me, how could I forget.

But seeing I'm of italian descent.....its not really prejudice is it? So I don't think I shot my own credibility in the foot, I was just mentioning some aspects of a culture that I happen to know a bit about.

Oh, and its not prejudice. Here's an english lesson for you chad. Prejudice is a compound word. That means, that it is a word made from a combination of two words. Now boys and girls, prejudice is made from 'pre' and 'judge'. Pre meaning before, and judge meaning to analyse or catergorise something. So, what I said isn't prejudice, because I am not "pre-judging" italians. I may seem to be judging them, but not pre-judging them, because members of my family and friends are italian, therefore its not 'pre'judice.

 

[chad shaver]

Well,

1. Italian
2. English
3. "Oh, and its not prejudice." Try "it's."
4. Put a comma before my name, K!ck5w3rvE (like I just did).
5. Drop the comma from "That means, that..."
6. Have I mad my point, there?

So, you know a lot about the Mafia, do you? That's nice. Now, why don't go back, read the rest of my post and answer those questions?

And yeah, I REALLY insulted the entire Italian community. Grow up, kid.

 

[Sacco]

mlee2,

I agree, and I know they are in a "civil war" of sorts. It just feeds into my point. The terms 'terrorist'/'freedom fighter' are very easy to flip-flop depending on the spin any country's media wishes to take, and this is a prime example.

And it still does not change the point, justified or not. If you watched the U.S. media's position before 9/11 and after 9/11 (when the term 'axis of evil' was coined), the shift wasn't justified by some nebulous balancing of atrocities, but by a drive to garner Russsia's support for the U.S.'s 'global' campaign against those they branded 'terrorist', etc, etc.

Overall, a good example of how propaganda functions, and how the hope remains that the average person's memory is short enough that it won't notice these contradicts over time, forget them, or excuse them with a balancing act or arguments.

Say this, I realize EVERY country usees propaganda to a degree, but being from this country the only one I feel justified in some minor way to comment on is this one, my native country of origin, the United States.

Thus I don't critique Russia or Chechnya, but the U.S. media's and government's portrayal of these two groups.

 

[rlbjr]

Equating Italians to Mafia is NOT predjudice, it's stereotyping. So is equating the French with cowrdice, Irish with drinking, Brittish with boorish, Asian with bad driving. Whuch stereotypes do most of us fall into? I'm a drunken mafioso myself.

And BTW, JCap is a horses ass, on or off the court.

 

[chad shaver]

rlbjr,

Point taken and good catch. I was thinking both prejudice (Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion,which would be correct given the information I had at the time) and stereotyping at the same time. Should have proof-read.