Thinking about getting the SW ML90

[Deleted member 25923]

After the LF fiasco, i'm disputing the charge. But, i've been talking to Mark about the SW ML90.

He said it would be about $750 altogether.


The machine looks solid. Just a few questions:

-How do I secure the towers of the mounting system. Is it just two knobs under the table?
-Does it come with an adequate manual?
-Is the tensioner tower bare like the old LF MS200 Eco?
-When do I use the babolat retainer?

 

[scotus]

What freebies does it come with? Free strings, tools, etc?

 

[nadalfan!]

After the LF fiasco, i'm disputing the charge. But, i've been talking to Mark about the SW ML90.

He said it would be about $750 altogether.


The machine looks solid. Just a few questions:

-How do I secure the towers of the mounting system. Is it just two knobs under the table?
-Does it come with an adequate manual?
-Is the tensioner tower bare like the old LF MS200 Eco?
-When do I use the babolat retainer?

Hmm. I found your new machine that you're considering. But $750 is quite expensive. I think you should look into a revo if you're not comfortable with Eagnas or something a little bit cheaper that's just as good. I get it the revo is not constant pull but you can upgrade it to a wise tension head and there you go. Besides, if you string correctly, the racquets will come out just as good as any other machine.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

What freebies does it come with? Free strings, tools, etc?

Not sure. I'll ask Mark.

Ok, in that case no problems with them on your machine. The Klippermate is imo inferior to X2/Superstringer II. Why anyone still buys it when the Gamma/ATS offering is a later and IMPROVED version puzzles me, accept that Klippermate is more "known" among the low-cost stringers.

The Superstringer definitely has better mounting imo.

This said, every mounting system will work better for some than others. The Stringway system for example won't work with Head Crossbow rackets, and if you use the current style tie-downs vs. the old T-bar (MUCH better imo), then you should be using their Babolat retainers for thin framed rackets or rackets that have a non square/flat beam profile at the throat.

The 6-pt. mounting is not good for Head Pyramid Tour rackets.

The Prestige Classic and some OS rackets can be problematic on 2-pt. mounting systems.

Etc. BUT, *overall* 6-pt. mounting works for the *widest* variety of frame types, shapes, and designs without the need for special adapters. Add that's it's very quick and convenient, and easy on the hands (no blisters from having to constantly "tie-down" frame supports all day...IF you string a lot). That's imo why it's the "baseline" choice these days.

Imo, however, inside-mounting is the best overall for the home stringer especially. Imo, it puts the least stress on a frame (no sounds of micro-cracking from the frame CRUSHING into the side supports as you can sometimes get with 6-pt. if you're not careful, and even sometimes when you are), never having to tap supports loose as when finished stringing (note, this IS an indication of distortion, however, minor), etc.

I believe that long-term it results in the least racket fatigue as well if you're really in love with a particular model and will be using and stringing it up for a long time.

The newer Stringway tie-downs, however, take away some of those advantages as the tie downs tend to work themselves out over time (it's a bad design) at the throat, which can cause the throat mouting plate to break over time, which CAN and will take a racket out with it if it happens.

THAT'S why they have the throat retainers now for really thin profile frames or odd-shaped frame profiles imo, because the current tie-downs don't hold down as well and as securely as the older T-Bar as thesse kind of frames don't give very much "inside-support" contact at the retainers to keep the frame as securely wedged in as possible. This is where the T-Bar system works much better. It's a perfectly secure way of holding down the frame at the throat (no little delrin spacer to gradually work themselves out).

Thank God, I still have the older T-bar system as well. It works for 98% of what's out there without any drawbacks imo, and all of the advantages.

!Tym, the bold part of this quote worries me. I string racquets for teammates as well, and will most likely be stringing for others as well. Will this be reliable? I don't want to shatter a racquet due to faulty machine design.

 

[1012007]

"The newer Stringway tie-downs, however, take away some of those advantages as the tie downs tend to work themselves out over time (it's a bad design) at the throat, which can cause the throat mouting plate to break over time, which CAN and will take a racket out with it if it happens."

This was a concern of mine when i was looking for a SW machine. However SW told me that since 2007, the support plates are made of delrin instead of PVC, delrin is nearly unbreakable. Since then have not had any complaints. They told me the problem with the plates had been blown out of proportion because they only had to replace 30 plates, while they happily sold 100's of them. They told me that the problem was that the stringers over-tightened the knobs, which caused the problems.

They put me at ease with their emails about the plate and since they have had no complaints about the plate since 2007, you should be fine without any problems

 

[Deleted member 25923]

"The newer Stringway tie-downs, however, take away some of those advantages as the tie downs tend to work themselves out over time (it's a bad design) at the throat, which can cause the throat mouting plate to break over time, which CAN and will take a racket out with it if it happens."

This was a concern of mine when i was looking for a SW machine. However SW told me that since 2007, the support plates are made of delrin instead of PVC, delrin is nearly unbreakable. Since then have not had any complaints. They told me the problem with the plates had been blown out of proportion because they only had to replace 30 plates, while they happily sold 100's of them. They told me that the problem was that the stringers over-tightened the knobs, which caused the problems.

They put me at ease with their emails about the plate and since they have had no complaints about the plate since 2007, you should be fine without any problems

Oh, so even the new tie down ones will be fine? Thanks.

How long does mounting take on a SW machine?

 

[1012007]

Oh, so even the new tie down ones will be fine? Thanks.

How long does mounting take on a SW machine?

Yeah they will be fine.

It doesnt take long to mount a racket at all. Maybe 2 minutes at max, and thats no exaggeration.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Yeah they will be fine.

It doesnt take long to mount a racket at all. Maybe 2 minutes at max, and thats no exaggeration.

Great. Is there a lot of knob tightening, because i'm tired of using screw down mounts? It huts my hands after a couple of racquets.

 

[!Tym]

I wasn't aware of the newer delrin plates. That's a move that should have been done immediately, however, imo. I don't care about a problem being overblown ,but if it's wrong, it's wrong and needs to be corrected asap.

As far as knob obvertightening? Imo, I don't buy into that theory. Whenever you have knobs it's HUMAN NATURE to want to tighten as much as you can. That's why I never liked the idea of about 6-pt. mounting. People always say, oh don't tighten too much...but don't tighten too little...you want to pre-stress the hoop just enough...but not too much, etc. I HATE that kind of thinking. That's why I like the Stringway clamshell gripper and clamps so much, you never have to worry about making any adjustments for is the linear gripper set tight enough...or too little? You just insert it and go.

What I LOVE about the older T-Bar style mounting was that because there are no little spacers to squeeze/work out if you "overtightened". With the T-bar there's no such thing as overtightening, nothing ever in question. You just tighten ONE single knob until you can't anymore, wala, poof, with the additional benefit of having COMPLETELY clean and fear access to the bottom grommets. It's also FAST. The older t-bar style imo was very quick and very convenient, and ROCK solid secure with never any question.

It's a shame Stringway doesn't still offer this option.

This said, with the new delrin plates, then imo, there is NO QUESTION that the Stringway mounting is better than 6-pt. NONE in my mind. If you plan on stringing your rackets a lot, I would never want to go back to 6-pt. unless on a high end machine and with load spacers (which fotunately, Laserfibre does throw in for free).

As far as turning a lot of knobs, it's really not that bad. If you string A LOT of rackets in a row, however, and you could feel some blisters coming.

The Stringways are imo just about the perfect HOME stringer's machine, but in a pro shop environment I'd want 6-pt. mounting.

Btw, the ML90, imo is something I'd pass on. I know you can upgrade it to the "sensory jaw" feature later on, but imo, you should just save up a little more and wait. The sensory jaw feature imo, is what makes a Stringway a Stringway and such a pleasure to string-on. I couldn't imaging living without that feature and would never consider a Stringway without one.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Sensory Jaw?

 

[!Tym]

Great. Is there a lot of knob tightening, because i'm tired of using screw down mounts? It huts my hands after a couple of racquets.

...then this isn't the mounting system for you. The T-Bar would be a better option for you then.

It's not horrible by any stretch of the imagination, but you do have to tie-down for knobs with the Stringway mounting, three with the T-bar. How much of a big deal that to you is up to you, but to me it's a worthy trade-off. Rackets NEVER get slightly wedged in like they do with 6-pt. and you never hear any of the tell-tale signs of micro-cracking as you can get with 6-pt.

I'm just not a fan of the "reasoning" behind 6-pt. mounting. Two-me, insighe mounting is like getting the best of both worlds (2 and 6-pt. mounting). It allows the frame to flex naturally without CRUSHING it into any side walls, but it also provides enough support to make you feel secure with no grey area or "wiggle room" or doubt like with 6 pt. and enough support to prevent TOO much flexing and rounding like with 2 pt. (i.e. to the point of no return...well, at least not completely). Imo, inside mounting is the best period. It just won't work certain frames like the Head Cross Bow, or mono shaft rackets (for these you really should be using the T-bar), or for some super OS granny style frames (for these, the current style throat tie-downs aren't quie able to get a firm graps on super OS granny style frames, they're just too big to quite get around and on top of completely imo.

The T-Bar, however, while it does work with throat cross-bar rackets such as the POG and Graphite II, the problem is that it's very awkard to tie it down as you have to use the T-bar placement (they're 3 different slots to choose from) closest to the tower = can't really fit your fingers in to tie-it down but one increment at a time.

Other than cross-bar rackets, never had any issues with any racket with t-bar. The only knock was *possibly* having to pull a main string over the T-bar when exiting through the throat. I've NEVER had to do this that I can recall. I just pick the slot that works for pretty much every racket, is easy and quick to tie-down, and doesn't interfere with the string's exit. It's a non-issue to me, and even if you do pull over the T-bar it's not a big deal at all, and imo NO ONE would EVER be able to tell the difference.

Imo, the only legit reason for discontinuing the T-bar was that a lot of people complained that it wasn't professional looking, which to me is the most absurd reason I have ever heard.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Is it easier than the cheap two point hold downs?

 

[!Tym]

Short answer...no. This said, it's not hard by any stretch of the imagination either. You simply tie down four knobs, that's it, but unlike with two-point you don't have to worry about not holding rackets securely enough. Really, it's a MORE than worthy trade-off. I know it's hard not to overthink these things, but the best I can say is that if you think about it logically, what would it be like to tie down for knobs, that's exactly what it is. No more, no less. It is what it is.

If you plan on stringing for a lot of people, then this might not be the machine for you as there are more knobs to turn than anything else out there. You also have to make the little micro-adjustments of the three inside support pieces, though of course, for these no-force is required.

For me, it's worth it, for the piece of mind. It's not for everyone though. I can say that most Stringway users become true believers in inside-mounting, and don't want to go back.

For pro shop users though, it's really not the best option imo. That said, it's been used at pro challenger tournaments before under obviously heavy load and those stringers obviously made it out alive. Thomas Martinez, TW legend and stringer to the pros, used it as his personal stringer and as a runoff stringer for years, so it's not like it's literally torture or anything.

Also, Thomas Martinez picked the double actions for his Stringway. He's not a fan of single actions. It was on his advice that I chose the double actions. He said they held strings as well as anything out there including the Babolat's he was used to working with, he said they were great. So for those who want the single actions, but the price is a little steep, don't fret it too much. It's an upgrade in terms of convenience and speed (maybe a minute at most saved if you think about it though), but the doubles do have advantages too. If you're stringing a wide variety of rackets, imo, double actions reach the noooks and cranny's better. That's why ProTour630 preferred them (originally a single action owner). And like I said, imo, the BIGGEST reason people don't like the double-actions is they think they stammer too much. Just lubricate them every few string jobs, the bases still hold the same, but everything just flows so effortlessly and *almost* friction-free that is almost fun...weee!!!

The real problem with the double actions is that before their bases would lose their "positive lock" after every 125 string jobs or so. Fine for the home stringer, but would not hold up for the professional, high volume stringer. It's an easy repair, but still...fortunately, they've now corrected the problem.

The nice thing about the Stringway double actions is that they give you a nice "positive-lock" sensation so you know the base is locked. Meaning, it "snaps" into place and once the lever's reached the end of its travel, you get that "sensation" of awwwe...yes, "positive lock." In others, it feels like flipping a light switch on and off.

There are those who suggest tightening the base very tight to try and minimize drawback. I for one don't. I've tried in this past, and it doesn't really do anything imo except make you use force to flip the lever and make it a much sticker, more clammoring ride along the rails. It really adds nothing imo. I keep it adjusted just enough that you feel a nice firm, true, positive lock, "clicking" sensation...but not so much that I feel any real force having to be used to flip the lever. When you're adjusting it you feel like you're using force, then you start stringing, and you don't feel ANYTHING, because it's all in the moment and you're not consciously looking for anything. The happy-medium once found, don't change it. Once you get it, it's really all second-nature and in one big continuous motion. While I'd like the single actions now, I realize the real reason is mainly for the "coolness" factor. Like I said, when I really think about it, I don't actually even "feel" myself turning that light switch lever on and off as it's such second nature now. If I'm no longer conscious of the act, and don't "feel" it, then where really is the benefit of the single actions? Like I said, preferable if I had a choice to do it all over again, but if I weren't AWARE of the other option, I honestly would NOT be thinking about the alleged, "problem" with the double actions.

 

[barry]

Personally, I think Laserfibre and Stringway machines are over priced. I was looking for something to travel with, light weight, constant pull. Etc... But the quantum at $750 is a bit steep. As long as they keep the price about $500, they will sell few machines. Basically the only attraction to either is the single drop tensioner, otherwise mounting and clamps are not any better than any other manufacturer. I was really surprised Laserfibre opted to build a complete machine, rather than sell the single drop tensioner (manual generation of the Wise). If prices were under $200, they could sell a ton of them, thus reducing production cost.

I would like to see Eagnas develop a single drop tensioning system which could be retrofitted to any drop weight. I mean this is really basic engineering, why should consumers pay these over inflated prices? It could make existing drop weights technology obsolete.

 

[!Tym]

Personally, I think Laserfibre and Stringway machines are over priced. I was looking for something to travel with, light weight, constant pull. Etc... But the quantum at $750 is a bit steep. As long as they keep the price about $500, they will sell few machines. Basically the only attraction to either is the single drop tensioner, otherwise mounting and clamps are not any better than any other manufacturer. I was really surprised Laserfibre opted to build a complete machine, rather than sell the single drop tensioner (manual generation of the Wise). If prices were under $200, they could sell a ton of them, thus reducing production cost.

I would like to see Eagnas develop a single drop tensioning system which could be retrofitted to any drop weight. I mean this is really basic engineering, why should consumers pay these over inflated prices? It could make existing drop weights technology obsolete.

They do...if you ask them privately. For about $310.

The clamps and mounting ARE better than the lower-end machines by the way too.

The prices are MORE than reasonable imo. There are price points for a reason. While I want a good deal, I don't want to see manufacturers go under and more importantly to me the local mom and pop shops going under.

Sure, it's cheap stuff relatively speaking, but that's NOT the point. What's the point is what is being OFFERED for the price, meaning, not how complex the engineering is, but rather what does it bring to the table? The "smart" dropweight bring the speed, convenience, and accuracy of electronics to the table for far less. In other words, while the cheaper dropweight units are o.k. AND dirt cheap, they do NOT run the mom and pop shops to the ground, they are NOT a threat.

Why? Because most people don't want to bother stringing on such machines, they find them too much like a *chore* AND they also don't string as tight. This level of threat the mom and pop shops can survive on. But if you start offering a dropweight that makes stringing FUN for practically the same price as the entry-level machines, you're KILLING small businesses imo.

The small boutique style tennis shops count on stringing rackets as their bread and butter. Racket sales come and go...and now more frequently go, because of what? ONLINE sights like this that offer prices and selection that shops simply can't meet, PLUS now the two major online warehouses offer demo programs too!

Add that now most anyone wants are polys that last oh well...FOREVER...compared to the days when everyone used synthetic guts and multis, then now you really have a serious problem here.

It's like Walmart. Yeah, sure they're great for us...but they also make every local small business in the area quiver in their booties during the thick of winter.

I think the price is FAIR.

If you want get machines that produce results comparable to the big boy machines AND are just as fun and fast to string on if not faster, then you should just save up more money or be willing to spend more imo.

Stringing machines are the gift that keeps on GIVING.

Once you make the initial leap, it'll ALWAYS pay itself back over time. There is imo NO question of that. If you buy a big ticket machine then you'll probably be stringing for a lot more people and thus justify it...hence, even those pay themselves off.

Buying a stringing machine is one of the best and most solid investments a person can make in life. Every time you break a string, you're paying off part of that machine. Every time you don't waste money on gas, you're paying off part of that machine. Every time, you find a string you like and that helps your game that you wouldn't have had the time or money to experiment with through a shop...you're paying off part of that machine...in pleasure and "results". Every time, you're buddy snaps a string and gives it to you, you're paying off that machine.

If you want to sell that machine and cut your losses, you will have lost MINIMAL...in fact, you'll at worse break even imo once you factor in ANY string jobs you did on it that you didn't have to go to the local mom and pop's for.

If you think racket stringing machines are overpriced...take a look at what a "simple" *slightly-tweaked* metal cart with rubber wheels costs to other "specialized" domains and industries...uppards of 600 hundred dollars to well over a thousand! Outrageous I know, but that's the price you have to pay for entry. That's what manufacturers need to do to make sure they take in enough profit to stay afloat on such a limited market.

You don't charge for how "complex" something is, you charge based on volume and customer base, AND what a machine allows you to do.

Try not to think about how "simple" a "smart" dropweight is, but what it actually allows you to DO...and how quickly, and conveninetly, and fun, etc.

Fact: the "smart" dropweight machines allow you to closely match BOTH the results and speed and convenience factor of a "professional" electronic machine. How much is a Babolat going to cost you? Exactly. So for a PITTANCE share of what that Babolat would cost you, you can all but match it's results right at home.

How is that not an unfair deal? I know people always want a better deal, but an un-FAIR deal it most definitely is not imo.

 

[!Tym]

And note. Because I said stringing machines are the gift that keeps on giving, that is EXACTLY the point. You don't just GIVE out a gift like that at Walmart furniture prices *just because* the consumer wants a good deal.

SURE, the consumer wants the best deal possible, but you don't just GIVE the gift that keeps on giving, without expecting something in return. If you just GIVE them all away, then imo not only will it make old dropweights obsolete, you make tennis shops and stringers obsolete!

Once again, price points exist for a reason. Why set bail *just* out of reach? Because, if you want freedom, you need to be willing to pay the price for that freedom.

I hold in my hands the very simplest invention ever that has the potential to put every single person in an industry in that line of work out of business and yet why don't I go through with it? ...for that very reason. It weighs on my mind heavily. Because I don't want to do that to other people. The only way to make it "work" would by pricing it at a point so outrageously high for what it "technically" is, that only the serious "professionals" would be able to buy it...and strangely enough, that IS how this industry works looking back, but only NOW do I truly "get it."

Unfair? Imo, no. There was a time when I might have, would have, DEFINITELY thought that, but now I understand the responsibility and meaning of why price points exist for a reason.

When you hold that kind of power in your hands you need to think wisely about the possible ramifications of that decision-making process which unless you're an insider to the product, no one else, i.e. the "outside consumer", would ever think of, ever stop to consider.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

You got me sold on the stringway. Sensory jaw isn't a dealbreaker. If I really want it I'll upgrade in the future.

 

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Tym, Why did that stringer prefer DA clamps? Was it mainly because they reached the nooks and crannies easier than the SA clamps? I have read that the drawback on both clamping styles is basically the same, and another user on here mentioned that he had no problems using the SA clamps on even tight patterns like 18x20.

Cody

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Well, I opened my e-mail today, and LF sent me an e-mail about my Quantum. Apparently, there was a glitch in the inventory system, and the website sold machines that were not ready for assembly.

Ted said that the money was creditted back to my account, and my account now says backorder. The machines will be ready mid-april, and I would have been one of the first to be shipped out.

Looks like this may be much less painful than I thought. I cancelled the order, and Ted was very helpful when I called. And this e-mail was sent before I even called him about this issue.

I'll have my dad check his credit card to make sure the amount was returned later.

 

[scotus]

I hold in my hands the very simplest invention ever that has the potential to put every single person in an industry in that line of work out of business and yet why don't I go through with it? ...for that very reason. It weighs on my mind heavily. Because I don't want to do that to other people. The only way to make it "work" would by pricing it at a point so outrageously high for what it "technically" is, that only the serious "professionals" would be able to buy it...and strangely enough, that IS how this industry works looking back, but only NOW do I truly "get it."

I agree with you to some degree.

But this brings back some memories. A few years back in Philadelphia, the owner(s) of a large skyscraper was going to replace all the urinals, toilets, and pipes of the building with new ones that were not only far more eco-friendly but also almost free of leaking and clogging problems.

Guess who went on a strike to protest this? Yes, the plumbers.

There is something fishy about things like pharmaceutical companies possibly holding back on the cure for a disease so that they could continue to make money on an already available drug that only manages the disease.

Should researchers not search for a complete cure for diabetes fearing that it would drive doctors and dialysis centers out of business?

In optometry, contact lenses have not driven out the glasses industry, and LASIK and cornea transplants have not driven out the contact lens industry. And optometrists and opticians are all still in business. I think inventions, innovations, and competitions can lead to a more robust business environment than keeping the status quo.

Likewise, I think your concerns for mom and pop shops going out of business are, while noble, probably exaggerated.

For one, the internet shops do not compete with them on racquet sales, as the manufactuers force the online sellers to keep the prices high. I have time and time again seen mom-and-pop shops offer prices that beat the online sellers and still make profits. And plenty of people like the idea of feeling the racquet in hand before purchasing it and being able to take it home the same day.

There are also plenty of people who would not want to string for themselves. I have owned a stringer for 5 years at least, and I still take my frames to a shop from time to time when I don't have time to do these. Rich people would still use mom-and-pop shops because they have better things to do than string racquets. Even pros who have enough money to buy several Babolat Sensors usually pay a lot of money to have others do the stringing for them.

Those who are not interested in high-end machines but simply want to save money have already invested in Klippermates and Eagnas, and they will continue to do so. So a lower price on smart dropweights is not likely to deliver the knockout blow to the mom-and-pop tennis shop industry.

But !Tym, let me end my post by expressing how much I enjoy reading all your posts. They are helpful, witty, thoughtful, entertaining, etc. Keep them coming.

 

[scotus]

I'll have my dad check his credit card to make sure the amount was returned later.

Very important to do this before ordering the Stringway.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

I agree with you to some degree.

But this brings back some memories. A few years back in Philadelphia, the owner(s) of a large skyscraper was going to replace all the urinals, toilets, and pipes of the building with new ones that were not only far more eco-friendly but also almost free of leaking and clogging problems.

Guess who went on a strike to protest this? Yes, the plumbers.

There is something fishy about things like pharmaceutical companies possibly holding back on the cure for a disease so that they could continue to make money on an already available drug that only manages the disease.

Should researchers not search for a complete cure for diabetes fearing that it would drive doctors and dialysis centers out of business?

In optometry, contact lenses have not driven out the glasses industry, and LASIK and cornea transplants have not driven out the contact lens industry. And optometrists and opticians are all still in business. I think inventions, innovations, and competitions can lead to a more robust business environment than keeping the status quo.

Likewise, I think your concerns for mom and pop shops going out of business are, while noble, probably exaggerated.

For one, the internet shops do not compete with them on racquet sales, as the manufactuers force the online sellers to keep the prices high. I have time and time again seen mom-and-pop shops offer prices that beat the online sellers and still make profits. And plenty of people like the idea of feeling the racquet in hand before purchasing it and being able to take it home the same day.

There are also plenty of people who would not want to string for themselves. I have owned a stringer for 5 years at least, and I still take my frames to a shop from time to time when I don't have time to do these. Rich people would still use mom-and-pop shops because they have better things to do than string racquets. Even pros who have enough money to buy several Babolat Sensors usually pay a lot of money to have others do the stringing for them.

Those who are not interested in high-end machines but simply want to save money have already invested in Klippermates and Eagnas, and they will continue to do so. So a lower price on smart dropweights is not likely to deliver the knockout blow to the mom-and-pop tennis shop industry.

But !Tym, let me end my post by expressing how much I enjoy reading all your posts. They are helpful, witty, thoughtful, entertaining, etc. Keep them coming.

I like !Tym's posts. They're long, thorough, and informative. He could be a salesman. I'm just about ready to order my ML90.

 

[1012007]

Tym with your T-bar system, when pulling mains at the throat, do you pull the string over the throat so the string is in contact with the frame? Thanks for your help