Throw the racket or pull the Tennis Master
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
What is pulling the Tennis Master? Sounds kind of kinky.
With racket throwing drills you want to make sure that you are throwing upward at steep angles. You might start off with a 45 degree launch and then progress to 60 degree and 75 degree launch angles. These steeper launch angles could/should help to develop an improved racket drop.
With racket throwing drills you want to make sure that you are throwing upward at steep angles. You might start off with a 45 degree launch and then progress to 60 degree and 75 degree launch angles. These steeper launch angles could/should help to develop an improved racket drop.
[QUOTTennis "SystemicAnomaly, post: 10147141, member: 9279"]What is pulling the Tennis Master? Sounds kind of kinky.
With racket throwing drills you want to make sure that you are throwing upward at steep angles. You might start off with a 45 degree launch and then progress to 60 degree and 75 degree launch angles. These steeper launch angles could/should help to develop an improved racket drop.[/QUOTE]
The Tennis Master is a tool to help by racket drop.
The Te
With racket throwing drills you want to make sure that you are throwing upward at steep angles. You might start off with a 45 degree launch and then progress to 60 degree and 75 degree launch angles. These steeper launch angles could/should help to develop an improved racket drop.[/QUOTE]
The Tennis Master is a tool to help by racket drop.
The Te
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Could not find a serving aid by that name. Are you talking about the ServeMaster (aka The Total Serve)? Never used it but it might be helpful. Hard to say. I'd go for the racket throwing (upward angles) as I suggested previously. You might also try the water bottle idea.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...ing-drill-good-to-learn-serve-pattern.558114/
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...ing-drill-good-to-learn-serve-pattern.558114/
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
However, the real secret to a good racket drop is not really about forcing the shoulder and arm to accomplish it. It is more about driving with the legs and uncoiling the hips and upper body. If you focus on these thing and let the shoulder and arm relax, the weight of racket head should yield a decent racket drop. Keep the grip relaxed during the trophy and drop phases. This should assist the leg drive to get a decent racket head drop.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/28/sports/tennis/the-serve-creating-racket-speed.html
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/28/sports/tennis/the-serve-creating-racket-speed.html
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
It's interesting how many players have recently brought up the issue of insufficient racquet drop on serve. I wonder how many of them either never played throwing sports and/or started playing as adults.
Here is a video of Bill Tilden giving a tennis lesson to a putative beginner (actually a pretty skilled junior). Although the video is old, archaic and corny, in my opinion, the serve lesson, beginning at about 7:00: "it's based on throwing . . . throw the racquet at it," is all that is needed for most who have played throwing sports and have a competent throwing motion, to achieve a sufficient racquet drop.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I don't think so. I can get a full racquet drop with my feet planted and my legs straight. I don't think about it at all, it's automatic.
I do agree that the shoulder, arm and grip should all be relaxed. And I do think that leg drive accelerates upper body rotation which is the key to racquet head speed. But, none of that is required to achieve a deep racquet drop.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Sure, one can achieve a half-way decent racket drop w/o much of a leg drive but I maintain that some uncoiling of the body is required to develop a proper racket drop (with a looping action behind the back). You also see this in an overhand ball throwing motion (even in the Tilden video). And you can see it in the water bottle throwing drill below:
Now let's get back to the leg drive issue. It has been well established that optimal ESR (for the racket drop) is facilitated by leg drive. In the past, Chas_Tennis and I have both provided links of studies that bear this out. It is possible to easily achieve a racket drop that goes 1/3 to halfway down the back w/o leg drive. However, in order to achieve a deep racket drop where the racket tip reaches the waist or lower, a good leg drive and an upward driving of the chest is required. Take a gander at the image below. Can't see this happening w/o leg drive.
Not really. The coordination with the toss, indirect control of the ball through the racket and not the hand, and the requirement to get the ball over the net and into the box makes all the difference. I have seen many many players by now who grew up throwing baseballs, (American) footballs, and cricket balls and have serves which are no better than others. I would even venture to say that they are unable to bring any of that throwing experience to bear on the serve. Clubs and public courts are full of such players. They will be quite good at throwing a football with their son in the parking lot before entering the courts, but their serve will still stink.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Sure, one can achieve a half-way decent racket drop w/o much of a leg drive but I maintain that some uncoiling of the body is required to develop a proper racket drop (with a looping action behind the back). You also see this in an overhand ball throwing motion (even in the Tilden video). And you can see it in the water bottle throwing drill below:
Now let's get back to the leg drive issue. It has been well established that optimal ESR (for the racket drop) is facilitated by leg drive. In the past, Chas_Tennis and I have both provided links of studies that bear this out. It is possible to achieve a racket drop that goes 1/3 to halfway down the back w/o leg drive. However, in order to achieve a deep racket drop where the racket tip reaches the waist or lower, a good leg drive and an upward driving of the chest is required. Take a gander at the image below. Can't see this happening w/o leg drive.
I'm sorry, but, I don't agree with any of these premises at all. I can achieve a full racquet drop, almost to the bottom of my butt, with planted feet and straight legs, and I am an old man with an arthritic shoulder. If I can do it, almost everyone can do it. The kid in the Tilden video above has almost no leg involvement in his serve and achieves a pretty deep racquet drop. What I can't do without leg involvement is achieve optimal upper body rotation.
I don't know what the angle on that picture of Djokovic is supposed to show. But, in my opinion, it has no bearing on the ability to achieve a full racquet drop.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I'd like to see a video of this if you have one. Are you achieving a generous racket drop employing maximal ESR or are you using added elbow flexion (a smaller angle) instead? Many non-elite servers use an extreme elbow flexion (to "scratch the back") rather than a maximal ESR for a racket drop that is "away" from the back (as in the Novak image). Elite servers will usually maintain a flexion angle of the elbow close to 90 degrees during the racket drop. Non-elite server will often use less ESR and will decrease the elbow flexion angle to 45 degrees or less.
I'm in my early 60s myself and have a very severe external shoulder limitation in my preferred serving shoulder. I also have some abduction and (forward) flexion limitations in the same shoulder. There is no way that I can achieve a deep racket drop w/o a leg drive.
As I mentioned, we have provided links in the past that show that leg drive will produce an maximal or optimal ESR more readily (more easily). @Chas_Tennis can you provide us with any links that show this? EDIT: Here are a couple of pages that address this. Will try to dig up pages with more detail if needed.
http://en.coaching.itftennis.com/media/114010/114010.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445225/
"Optimal leg drive mechanics and internal rotation arm flexibility are critical for efficiency and velocity. Maximizing leg motion can produce a consistent leg drive that enhance shoulder rotation and more efficient serves... Effective leg drive forces the racket in a downward motion away from the back. This energy is recovered to assist in generating racket velocity during the acceleration phase of the service motion."
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
In this alternate version of his Leg Push serve video segment, Will Hamilton emphasizes that the leg push is part of getting to a proper racket drop.
EDIT: I first learned the the tennis serve in the early 1970s. In the 70s thru the 90s, it was common for coaches to tell students to "scratch the back" to achieve a racket drop. This was achieved by most players by flexing the elbow (to an internal angle of 45 degrees or less). I used this "flexion" model of the racket drop for more than 20 years. Later in the 90s, I learned to achieve a racket drop using an increase in ESR rather than using the elbow flexion "backscratch" approach. I found that I could drop the racket even more used ESR w/leg drive. I also found that RHS/power came more easily with this added ESR.
With the ESR drop the racket is further away from the body than the flexion/backscratch drop. A very respectable racket drop and serve can be achieved with the flexion/backscratch approach. However the ESR approach is superior and is what you will see with elite servers of the past few decades.
The upward push (legs and chest) facilitates a good racket drop. This is particularly true for the ESR racket drop used by modern pro players as I discussed above.
EDIT: I first learned the the tennis serve in the early 1970s. In the 70s thru the 90s, it was common for coaches to tell students to "scratch the back" to achieve a racket drop. This was achieved by most players by flexing the elbow (to an internal angle of 45 degrees or less). I used this "flexion" model of the racket drop for more than 20 years. Later in the 90s, I learned to achieve a racket drop using an increase in ESR rather than using the elbow flexion "backscratch" approach. I found that I could drop the racket even more used ESR w/leg drive. I also found that RHS/power came more easily with this added ESR.
With the ESR drop the racket is further away from the body than the flexion/backscratch drop. A very respectable racket drop and serve can be achieved with the flexion/backscratch approach. However the ESR approach is superior and is what you will see with elite servers of the past few decades.
The upward push (legs and chest) facilitates a good racket drop. This is particularly true for the ESR racket drop used by modern pro players as I discussed above.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I have some video, but, I prefer to remain anonymous online. I achieve my racquet drop by making a full swing path. I don't think about elbow flexion or ESR. In my view, if your swing path and load up position are good, your joints will do what is necessary to achieve that swing path and load up position.
If there is something specific in those links you would like me to look at, please specify. I agree with the part of your quoted excerpt (I don't know where it came from), that explains that leg drive enhances shoulder rotation. However, it doesn't say that leg drive is required for sufficient racquet drop. I also don't agree with the implication that the racquet being forced away from the back is important or even desirable. To the contrary, in my view, forcing the racquet down and away from the back is more likely to cause shoulder injury than enhance any aspect of the serve.
In any event, it remains my position that neither shoulder inflexibility (another thread), nor insufficient leg drive, has a material effect on achieving sufficient racquet drop.
PS: Take a look at Becker's serve at about 3:00 minutes. That is about as full a swing path and deep a racquet drop as I've ever seen. It seems that he employs both a full elbow bend and a full ESR in his motion.
PPS: Take a look at Djokovic's serve from this perspective. It appears to me that your picture above captures his swing path after he begins his upward swing, not because he somehow keeps his racquet away from his back.
Look also at Wawrinka's serve:
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elga
Rookie
External Shoulder Rotation
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
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I am not into that swinging lifestyle and haven't met any Tennis Masters that I like.
