Was Jimmy Connors MISTAKEN OR CRAZY stating this ? How is it possible?

[Connors109]

In his book "How to play tougher tennis " he states that he used the SAME GRIP for ALL his strokes thus never had to change it . This would be true if HE used a continental type grip but especially off the forehand side as discussed in earlier threads He used a full eastern verging towards (semi western) as described by his coach the late Pancho Segura .........How could Connors serve with such a grip in the pro ranks ? How could he volley effectively or even smash ? Observing him BOTH LIVE and on video he does NOT appear to switch grips when approaching the net for volleys. Look at my avatar NO WAY Connors could serve in the Pro ranks with that grip! Remember he said he never changed grips! I'm tempted to send him a message to his podcast to clarify.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

I am terrible at recognizing grips. And many of these pros are laughably inaccurate when describing their grips.

But my impression is that Mac is a classic example of essentially using the same Continental grip for all strokes.

Would be shocked if Connors was using a Continental on forehand. His forehand grip look Eastern or towards Semi-Western.

 

[nyta2]

to my eye, fh appears eastern... 2hbh bottom grip doesn't change... which explains why his 2hbh looks to me, more like a mild/flattish slice drive than an topspin drive.
volleys, i've heard other pros preferring an eastern-fh-ish grip on both sides.
and can definitely see using an efh grip for serve... gives more pace, but not as much spin

 

[dennis]

to my eye, fh appears eastern... 2hbh bottom grip doesn't change... which explains why his 2hbh looks to me, more like a mild/flattish slice drive than an topspin drive.
volleys, i've heard other pros preferring an eastern-fh-ish grip on both sides.
and can definitely see using an efh grip for serve... gives more pace, but not as much spin

Which pros use an EFH for volleys? Particularly backhand volleys?

 

[nyta2]

Which pros use an EFH for volleys? Particularly backhand volleys?

doubles players. situational, eg. low bh volley - heard at a uspta conf

 

[dennis]

doubles players. situational, eg. low bh volley - heard at a uspta conf

I've seen Louis Cayer teaching it. He was saying the pros will use one hand to rotate the racket from a continental grip to an EFH grip to hit a stretched backhand volley. I guess it just doesn't happen that often and is hard to catch.

 

[nyta2]

I've seen Louis Cayer teaching it. He was saying the pros will use one hand to rotate the racket from a continental grip to an EFH grip to hit a stretched backhand volley. I guess it just doesn't happen that often and is hard to catch.

i think we saw the same video

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Find it difficult to believe that JC used only one grip for all strokes (despite what he wrote). For his entire 24-year career?

While Jimbo was the best serve returner of his era, his serve was not all that great. Serviceable but not really much of a weapon. Any videos around that clearly show what grip he used for serves?

Had heard numerous times that JC used 2 Fh grips for his 2-handed Bh. Not sure what those 2 Fh were exactly. Pretty much (always?) hit his Bh in his strike zone (close to waist level?). Don’t recall him using a 1-handed slice Bh.

In some images it looked like his Fh grip was a SW or mild SW grip. Can’t imagine him using that for serves or volleys.

Some sources indicated that JC employed a semi-Conti (Australian) grip on many shots. Difficult to accept older accounts of grip names. Don’t think grip names were standard until the late 90s.

 

[dennis]

Maybe he meant 'same' as in 'similar'?! If you only use an eastern forehand and a conti grip, you're making relatively small changes compared to other players.

 

[GAS]

If only there were pictures of Jimmy Connors playing on the Internet... we could answer OP question in no time!

 

[nyta2]

Maybe he meant 'same' as in 'similar'?! If you only use an eastern forehand and a conti grip, you're making relatively small changes compared to some others.

Find it difficult to believe that JC used only one grip for all strokes (despite what he wrote). For his entire 24-year career?

While Jimbo was the best serve returner of his era, his serve was not all that great. Serviceable but not really much of a weapon. Any videos around that clearly show what grip he used for serves?

Had heard numerous times that JC used 2 Fh grips for his 2-handed Bh. Not sure what those 2 Fh were exactly. Pretty much (always?) hit his Bh in his strike zone (close to waist level?). Don’t recall him using a 1-handed slice Bh.

In some images it looked like his Fh grip was a SW or mild SW grip. Can’t imagine him using that for serves or volleys.

Some sources indicated that JC employed a semi-Conti (Australian) grip on many shots. Difficult to accept older accounts of grip names. Don’t think grip names were standard until the late 90s.

i definitely make small adjustments in where the buttcap lies at the base of my palm, so my "efh" grip with index knuckle on the flat bevel #3 with a "splayed" grip and a "hammer" grip, actually change the orientation...
and i know i now, that the better way to define a grip is to not only define where the knuckle likes, but also to define the line it makes in your hand... but it took many years and pics before i realized that...
os back in the day, the 2 version of efh i described earlier were both "the same" to me... so i can only imagine others had similar "definitions".

i only learned about "semi-conti" (aussie) in the last few years from ttw... i don't recall seeign that grip in any books i have... and i have easily 20 or so...

 

[Connors109]

Find it difficult to believe that JC used only one grip for all strokes (despite what he wrote). For his entire 24-year career?

While Jimbo was the best serve returner of his era, his serve was not all that great. Serviceable but not really much of a weapon. Any videos around that clearly show what grip he used for serves?

Had heard numerous times that JC used 2 Fh grips for his 2-handed Bh. Not sure what those 2 Fh were exactly. Pretty much (always?) hit his Bh in his strike zone (close to waist level?). Don’t recall him using a 1-handed slice Bh.

In some images it looked like his Fh grip was a SW or mild SW grip. Can’t imagine him using that for serves or volleys.

Some sources indicated that JC employed a semi-Conti (Australian) grip on many shots. Difficult to accept older accounts of grip names. Don’t think grip names were standard until the la

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

A slice serve almost requires a Bevel 2 continental grip or a Bevel 2.5 Australian, in order to approach on edge and impart sidespin.What is the key to hitting a slice serve wide on the Deuce using an bevel 3 Eastern forehand grip? Very difficult.

 

[Connors109]

A slice serve almost requires a Bevel 2 continental grip or a Bevel 2.5 Australian, in order to approach on edge and impart sidespin.What is the key to hitting a slice serve wide on the Deuce using an bevel 3 Eastern forehand grip? Very difficult.

I think Connors is mistaken he used a continental or Aussie grip tweener between eastern and continental to serve, there is no way he could hit kickers with a full eastern and get enough spin.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

look at my avatar just changed it Connors serving

Does it clearly show his serve grip?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

look at my avatar just changed it Connors serving

It looks like a version of the Aussie grip. Nearly Conti. Thank Dog he was not trying to serve with a SW grip

 

[Chas Tennis]

I did not find useful serve videos in a few searches.

In Connors prime, late 70s-80s, low cost high speed video cameras were not available at low cost.

High speed cameras were usually film framing cameras that used 16mm film. Paying for camera, film and film processing was too expensive outside of tennis research. The one I worked with, the Locam, cost about $5000, and a 100' roll of 16 mm color film might have been about $25 and processing another $25. That is a lot for a number of high speed tennis stoke recordings. If the user did not understand motion blur, he would not get sharp enough films. Now the cost is under $200 for thousands of sharp high speed videos. With free Kinovea there's an application for analyzing and producing videos. There is hardly any videos being done........

Some of the best film recordings of tennis strokes are probably out there, still on 16 mm films, in someone's closet.

There is a recording of Gerald Paterson taken in 1919, that is clear, high speed, now available on Youtube. It is one video clip of several tennis strokes on the video. Paterson's serve clearly shows hit arm doing very rapid and forceful Internal Shoulder Rotation. But it would take badminton researchers in the 1970s or later in the 1980's another 60 or more years to realize that the tennis serve was similar to the badminton smash in its use of ISR for racket head speed. A conference presentation confirms this in a 1985 presentation. See thread The Tennis Badminton Connection.

Meet Gerald Paterson

The first server is Gerald Paterson, quality slow motion included.

This is one of the clearest dislplays of internal shoulder rotation, and from 1919!. The toss does not look very high. ?

Gerald, an Aussie, was known as the "Human Catapult" because of his serve. He overcame a backhand weakness to win Wimbledon singles and doubles titles.

I am searching for Rosco Tanner in slow motion who has one of the lowest tosses. The unusual low toss is about the only technical thing he mentions in his autobiography, Double Fault.

Gerald Paterson, 1919, "The Human Catapult"

You can view any 4 frames from that video. Do impact and the 3 frames before impact. To single frame in Youtube stop video. Go full screen. Use the period & comma keys to single frame.

That serve was recorded with a high speed film camera in 1919. ISR was clearly recorded as early as 1919 by someone that had use of a high speed camera that had a very fast shutter speed. (knew what they were doing). After that motion blur was not appreciated for many decades and ISR was not noticed or discussed in tennis until about the conference paper in 1985 when ____________ presented at the ______________conference.

 

[Chas Tennis]

For those that want to see the last frames before impact.

Gerald Patterson Serve, 1919. Serve at 5 sec.

In this post - arrange any 5 frames in sequence on Youtube.

Do the bottom 'impact' video first.

Set to 4 frames before impact.

Set to 3 frames before impact.

Set to 2 frames before impact.

Set to 1 frame before impact.

1st Set to frame closest to impact.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, use the period & comma keys. Sometimes Youtubes skip a frame when the period key is pressed. Mine didn't. You can see the video better if you go full screen. (use "esc key" to come back down) The ball is round the last frame before impact dropping and a blur streak on the next frame after impact.

After the videos are open, always select the video by placing cursor on it and using alt key + left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing.

OP, you can do this on the forum. To do this, post your Youtube video on the forum 5 times, one above the other. (forum limit 5 videos) Pick any five frames in the video for comparison.

You would also enjoy Kinovea. It's free, open source and has many capabilities for video analysis.

While this video shows Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) in 1919, ISR for the serve was not confirmed for tennis until 1995! Elliott, Marshall and Noffal. It can be seen in videos at least back to 1919. The 1919 serve videos made use of high speed filming and a fast shutter, possibly a rare camera in 1919, but it existed by 1919. What happened for the next 70+ years in researching tennis strokes? Where are the Conners' serve videos? This is a very interesting story. I hope that someone - that lived through it first hand - will tell their story. Perhaps write a book?

https://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/internationalexeter/documents/iss/Elliot_et_al__1995.pdf

SEARCHFRAMESEQUENCE

 

[socallefty]

Shouldn’t this be in ‘Former Pros’ section? @TW Staff

 

[heninfan99]

Maybe Eastern-ish for all shots or "weak Eastern" as some might say.

 

[I get cramps]

It looks like a version of the Aussie grip. Nearly Conti. Thank Dog he was not trying to serve with a SW grip

A palindrome in TTW! According to Plutarch, prodigies were announced in Rome on the eve of Caesar's assassination. What does the luck of this sacred forum have in store for us?

[The chronicler wiggles his ears].

 

[jrepac]

Maybe Eastern-ish for all shots or "weak Eastern" as some might say.

If I focus on his left hand, I'd say semi-western. Does that equal weak Eastern?

 

[big ted]

he did have a funky semi western forehand grip with no wrist action, hence his propensity to
only be able to shovel back sliced balls to his forehand, which many opponents used so effectively