Watching pros on their serve take back

[dgold44]

My new pro pointed something out that I never noticed.

The pros ( right handed) have their racket going more out to the right on the take back rather than straight back.

Federers Racket is closed ( strings point down) and racket is more angled out to the right while Stan has his racket vertical and totally pointing to his right side.

I have a terrible serve but I hired someone to work on it and it seems I should be bringing him back to the right more. I guess this will allow for more arm movement action . My pro told me this.

I will watch the videos again tomorrow to make sure I am right.

 

[Curious]

My new pro pointed something out that I never noticed.

The pros ( right handed) have their racket going more out to the right on the take back rather than straight back.

Federers Racket is closed ( strings point down) and racket is more angled out to the right while Stan has his racket vertical and totally pointing to his right side.

I have a terrible serve but I hired someone to work on it and it seems I should be bringing him back to the right more. I guess this will allow for more arm movement action . My pro told me this.

I will watch the videos again tomorrow to make sure I am right.

That's also what I have noticed and I was wondering if it is really significant.

 

[2forehands]

Peter McCraw talks about this (I seem to remember)
see

 

[Curious]

Peter McCraw talks about this (I seem to remember)
see

Thanks, interesting. Never heard of anyone talk about this specifically.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Between Trophy Position and ball impact, high level serves mostly look similar. Before TP there are various ways being used to get to TP. Do you mean before or after TP? Compare Sampras and Sharapova to see two clear techniques for getting to TP. Toss height matters as Sharapova waits for the ball drop. Wawrinka is in between.

There is variety before Trophy Position..

 

[2forehands]

Between Trophy Position and ball impact, high level serves mostly look similar. Before TP there are various ways being used to get to TP. Do you mean before or after TP? Compare Sampras and Sharapova to see two clear techniques for getting to TP. Toss height matters as Sharapova waits for the ball drop. Wawrinka is in between.

There is variety before Trophy Position..

I agree but do many exhibit an in-to-out path that McCraw warns against?

 

[Chas Tennis]

It looks as if the "in out" might refer to whether the upper arm is abducted from the body at the shoulder, that is a shoulder joint angular position, abduction. It is the shoulder joint angle discussed and shown by Ellenbecker in the video "Rotator Cuff Injury". Unfortunately, that video it is no longer free. I can see that correct angle range directly in all videos and do not understand as clearly from the words 'in-out' path for a defective serve stroke. We discuss the upper arm orientation sometimes saying that the upper arm is in line with a line between the two shoulders (not accurate, see videos).

The upper arm orientation is needed so that the body motions of the serve effectively cause external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm orientation is also a safety issue as the Ellenbecker video explains.

Get that position with a racket, 90 d elbow, upper arm straight out from the shoulder, and gently move your relaxed shoulder around with your body. You will see that it rotates ESR for certain motions and ISR for others from the inertia of the forearm and racket.

 

[onehandbh]

mcenroe might be in to out

 

[2forehands]

It looks as if the "in out" might refer to whether the upper arm is abducted from the body at the shoulder, that is a shoulder joint angular position, abduction. It is the shoulder joint angle discussed and shown by Ellenbecker in the video "Rotator Cuff Injury". Unfortunately, that video it is no longer free. I can see that angle directly in all videos and do not understand as clearly from the words 'in-out' path for a defective serve stroke. We discuss the upper arm orientation sometimes saying that the upper arm is in line with a line between the two shoulders (not accurate, see videos).

The upper arm orientation is needed so that the body motions of the serve effectively cause external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm orientation is also a safety issue as the Ellenbecker video explains.

Get that position with a racket, 90 d elbow, upper arm straight out from the shoulder, and gently move your relaxed shoulder around with your body. You will see that it rotates ESR for certain motions and ISR for others from inertia.

To me it would seem that the in-out path requires some trunk rotation and shoulder extension prior to shoulder abduction. I can see that this path sets up an 'out' contact position that will mean either limiting yourself to a slice serve or causing you to square up early and risk impingement. Cheers

 

[2forehands]

mcenroe might be in to out

He liked a slice or two!

 

[watungga]

It looks as if the "in out" might refer to whether the upper arm is abducted from the body at the shoulder, that is a shoulder joint angular position, abduction. It is the shoulder joint angle discussed and shown by Ellenbecker in the video "Rotator Cuff Injury". Unfortunately, that video it is no longer free. I can see that angle directly in all videos and do not understand as clearly from the words 'in-out' path for a defective serve stroke. We discuss the upper arm orientation sometimes saying that the upper arm is in line with a line between the two shoulders (not accurate, see videos).

The upper arm orientation is needed so that the body motions of the serve effectively cause external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm orientation is also a safety issue as the Ellenbecker video explains.

Get that position with a racket, 90 d elbow, upper arm straight out from the shoulder, and gently move your relaxed shoulder around with your body. You will see that it rotates ESR for certain motions and ISR for others from inertia.

Chas, can you post a new thread and assign a GIF on each of the terms like ESR, ISR, and all the action related acronyms... It coul d be of big help to those who do not have mental depthness in science.... or just lazy like me.

 

[watungga]

Watching someone else's serve take back is not a good way to learn the actual serve.
It all depends on your habitual toss. The toss you're most likely to offer for your hitting arm. Also, the height of toss that is anticipated by your eyesight.
To me, there should be absolutely no stoppage of racquet movement from takeback to forward swing. It should all be smooth motion.

 

[dgold44]

Watching someone else's serve take back is not a good way to learn the actual serve.
It all depends on your habitual toss. The toss you're most likely to offer for your hitting arm. Also, the height of toss that is anticipated by your eyesight.
To me, there should be absolutely no stoppage of racquet movement from takeback to forward swing. It should all be smooth motion.

Yes my pro also said that i am stopping the arm movement

Tennis serve is so complex !!!

My right arm needs to always be in motion

 

[atp2015]

Between Trophy Position and ball impact, high level serves mostly look similar. Before TP there are various ways being used to get to TP. Do you mean before or after TP? Compare Sampras and Sharapova to see two clear techniques for getting to TP. Toss height matters as Sharapova waits for the ball drop. Wawrinka is in between.

There is variety before Trophy Position..

Sorry to jump in - you did the same thing to me in another thread - asking annoying questions which are clearer if you had read the post with a bit more attention in the fist place. Clearly the heading says "on their serve take back" - does it happen before or after tp? Sure, I can simply ignore whatever you are posting. But you seem to be a reasonable poster other than these oft repeated and annoying questions....

 

[heninfan99]

 

[watungga]

Yes my pro also said that i am stopping the arm movement

Tennis serve is so complex !!!

My right arm needs to always be in motion

To get rid of that stoppage, determine first where (above space) you want to hit the ball, then you toss it there. Toss at the least height as possible where it will properly meet the stringbed at its center, either at apex or splitsecond-after-apex.

To add power, that's where you will start to determine the proper takeback for your body.

 

[GuyClinch]

Interesting. This seems like a relatively easy change to implement. So I think its worth trying..

 

[Chas Tennis]

Chas, can you post a new thread and assign a GIF on each of the terms like ESR, ISR, and all the action related acronyms... It coul d be of big help to those who do not have mental depthness in science.... or just lazy like me.

ESR - external shoulder rotation
ISR - internal shoulder rotation

These are defined joint motions. You can Google them and find definitions.

There are many videos that show how to measure the joint angles, but they are mostly for measuring ranges of motion for medical purposes with certain body positions.

It is worth buying a book on Kinesiology. Manual of Structural Kinesiology, Thompson, Flloyd 15th ed is excellent and the older editions of this popular college text are cheap and I like the illustrations better.

If you search the joint motions and add 'Chas' you can find pictures and videos. I don't put in as many as I used to a few years ago.....

 

[Chas Tennis]

Sorry to jump in - you did the same thing to me in another thread - asking annoying questions which are clearer if you had read the post with a bit more attention in the fist place. Clearly the heading says "on their serve take back" - does it happen before or after tp? Sure, I can simply ignore whatever you are posting. But you seem to be a reasonable poster other than these oft repeated and annoying questions....

Some 'takebacks' start before Trophy Position and other 'takebacks' start at Trophy Position? I gave Sampras and Sharapova as examples. Sometimes posters will also refer to the arm racket motion right after the toss release as another 'takeback'.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Yes my pro also said that i am stopping the arm movement

Tennis serve is so complex !!!

My right arm needs to always be in motion

A high toss causes high level servers to wait somewhere for the ball to come down. Some go to Trophy Position and wait for a high toss to drop. Sharapova.

You should look at your toss height. Very low tosses don't allow the server to slow down. Some very big servers toss very low, Tanner, Groth.

Also, see what serving technique you are using with video. To analyze the serve takes high speed video but you might catch enough frames to identify the technique with slower video.

 

[GuyClinch]

Sorry to jump in - you did the same thing to me in another thread - asking annoying questions which are clearer if you had read the post with a bit more attention in the fist place. Clearly the heading says "on their serve take back" - does it happen before or after tp? Sure, I can simply ignore whatever you are posting. But you seem to be a reasonable poster other than these oft repeated and annoying questions....

Annoying. Agree.

McCraw is the national director of new Zealand tennis. That makes him an authority on tennis and he can hit a decent serve to boot. So if he thinks that a bad takeback can trigger problems with the rest of your serve - I would be inclined to listen to him and the OPs' coach. It's great I think that OP brought this up because its something anyone with a full motion can easily implement..and it will likely help your serve.

 

[Curious]

Which category does Federer's serve fall into? I have noticed he keeps his right arm mostly on his right side during the whole serve until the throwing motion.
Better seen on 0.25 speed:

 

[Chas Tennis]

Which category does Federer's serve fall into? I have noticed he keeps his right arm mostly on his right side during the whole serve until the throwing motion.
Better seen on 0.25 speed:

The Federer video shows Federer's upper arm out from the shoulder and he is doing ESR to and through Trophy Position as part of his biomechanically important service motion, part of the important ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. This is the most common high level ATP service motion. The server does not stop or pause at Trophy Position. Sampras, Roddick, Raonic. Isner, Karlovic, etc.

Sharapova stops and waits at Trophy Position because of the high toss. Tennis Balla waited or paused in a serve video a few years ago. These are high level serves with the part, ESR, before TP left out.

Stan Wawrinka moves to TP and pauses so he does not use the full Sampras-like ESR up to TP.

This looks somewhat like Sharapova with less pause. I think I have seen some variety in Stan's motion to Trophy Position. ?

When the timing of these early events are viewed sometimes motions, especially leg thrust, are started when the forearm and racket are not in the most beneficial position. The leg thrust forces at first sometimes would tend to cause ISR instead of the desired ESR. Reason to be determined - maybe the best average arm position during the entire leg thrust is being sought by the server. ?

In order to see these three takebacks, view clear high speed videos of Federer, Sharapova, and Wawrinka.

Roddick was sometimes said to have an 'abbreviated' motion. But his motion shows the same basic Sampras & Federer motion for the important ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. He may add an extra stretch shorten cycle just before he starts ESR. ?

These three or more ways that I've seen pros bring the racket back are for high level serving techniques. The OP and everyone else should first determine where they stand, whether their serving technique is a high level technique or other. Most serving techniques are not high level techniques.

 

[atp2015]

Annoying. Agree.

McCraw is the national director of new Zealand tennis. That makes him an authority on tennis and he can hit a decent serve to boot. So if he thinks that a bad takeback can trigger problems with the rest of your serve - I would be inclined to listen to him and the OPs' coach. It's great I think that OP brought this up because its something anyone with a full motion can easily implement..and it will likely help your serve.

I'm not arguing whether a bad take back can cause issues with the serve or not. My beef was with what is 'take back' in a serve motion. AFAIK, 'take back' refers to the initial move before the TP and not after TP. That's how most well known coaches that I know refer to. McCraw is also talking about the initial move as "take back". Chas' question was "Do you mean before or after TP?" After I expressed my annoyance he said "Some 'takebacks' start before Trophy Position and other 'takebacks' start at Trophy Position" . In my mind, Chas is confusing "take back" with "racket drop". He is the one who is 'accusing' people of constantly confusing one issue with another. Can you point to one well known coach or a cited article(I'm talking about a cited article and not a random blog entry), where the well known racket drop after TP is called "take back"?

 

[atp2015]

The Federer video shows Federer's upper arm out from the shoulder and he is doing ESR to and through Trophy Position as part of his biomechanically important service motion, part of the important ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. This is the most common high level ATP service motion. The server does not stop or pause at Trophy Position. Sampras, Roddick, Raonic. Isner, Karlovic, etc.

Sharapova stops and waits at Trophy Position because of the high toss. Tennis Balla waited or paused in a serve video a few years ago. These are high level serves with the part, ESR, before TP left out.

Stan Wawrinka moves to TP and pauses so he does not use the full Sampras-like ESR up to TP.

This looks somewhat like Sharapova with less pause. I think I have seen some variety in Stan's motion to Trophy Position. ?

When the timing of these early events are viewed sometimes motions, especially leg thrust, are started when the forearm and racket are not in the most beneficial position. The leg thrust forces at first sometimes would tend to cause ISR instead of the desired ESR. Reason to be determined - maybe the best average arm position during the entire leg thrust is being sought by the server. ?

In order to see these three takebacks, view clear high speed videos of Federer, Sharapova, and Wawrinka.

Roddick was sometimes said to have an 'abbreviated' motion. But his motion shows the same basic Sampras & Federer motion for the important ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. He may add an extra stretch shorten cycle just before he starts ESR. ?

These three or more ways that I've seen pros bring the racket back are for high level serving techniques. The OP and everyone else should first determine where they stand, whether their serving technique is a high level technique or other. Most serving techniques are not high level techniques.

Great info, but what is this got to do with the initial move of "racket take back"? You are talking about post TP activities, I don't think OP was about that. I'll let OP confirm.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Great info, but what is this got to do with the initial move of "racket take back"? You are talking about post TP activities, I don't think OP was about that. I'll let OP confirm.

I clearly see the Federer and Sampras racket move back to Trophy Position.

Sharapova and Wawrinka don't seem to have that initial move of 'racket take back" although their serves and many other similar serves are high level serves.

Do you see the same racket 'take back' for Federer & Sampras as for Wawrinka & Sharapova? I was surprised to learn about this difference about 3 years ago.

The term "takeback" when used by a poster on this forum is not clear. I don't think it is defined in tennis, in general, like most tennis terms. If you want to talk about more complicated things and not be ambiguous you have to use defined terms. This is another case where words break down when describing a 3D tennis stroke.

Better, high speed videos, if correctly interpreted, do a much better job. These issues melt away if a clear high speed video is shown and the poster says 'in frames 34-37, call this motion takeback, the arm is at X, Y or Z'. Otherwise, there are endless posts using familiar, conversational, undefined terms.....

The OP has an unknown serving technique and has asked about these issues. I explained a point and provided some videos to show why.

 

[heninfan99]

 

[watungga]

To me, takeback is a movement. Sort of where you start swinging the racquet for service.

TP is a fixed position, much like for photography or marketing purposes.

Instead of calling it TP, i would suggest we come up a better term similar to car's U-turn on road.

 

[atp2015]

I clearly see the Federer and Sampras racket move back to Trophy Position.

Sharapova and Wawrinka don't seem to have that initial move of 'racket take back" although their serves and many other similar serves are high level serves.

Do you see the same racket 'take back' for Federer & Sampras as for Wawrinka & Sharapova? I was surprised to learn about this difference about 3 years ago.

I do see racket 'take back' for Wawrinka, but it's very very abbreviated and small for Sharapova. See the takeback here.

The term "takeback" when used by a poster on this forum is not clear. I don't think it is defined in tennis, in general, like most tennis terms.

I see your point that the takeback is not that important in a high level serve and I agree. The term 'takeback' may not be clear to you, but I don't think you can say the same things for 95% of the other posters. 'Backswing' and 'takeback' are used interchangeably to describe the initial move along with the toss in almost every advanced serve instruction I have come across. Can you point to any cited article which refers to take back to mean something else in a serve context?

If you want to talk about more complicated things and not be ambiguous you have to use defined terms.

Sure, we need to be using defined terms when we are talking about complicated things. But 'takeback/backswing' are well understood terms IMO.

The OP has an unknown serving technique and has asked about these issues. I explained a point and provided some videos to show why.

Sorry, he was only talking about the 'takeback' and you seem to be determined to put a plug for high speed video for something else(TP and post TP activities) - I have no problem with it - other than the fact the you are introducing confusion in the name of clarity.

 

[heninfan99]

Federers Racket is closed ( strings point down) and racket is more angled out to the right while Stan has his racket vertical and totally pointing to his right side.

This is incorrect. Stan's racquet is also pretty closed.

I have a terrible serve but I hired someone to work on it and it seems I should be bringing him back to the right more.

Your serve is not that bad just like your Mamma said in your old video. I'm sure your pro can help you, just trust him for a few weeks, don't over think it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

In 'takeback' for 'back'. do we mean the server's back or toward the back of the court?

I find that external shoulder rotation is a biomechanically important joint motion, part of the ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle, that also has safety importance. It rotates the upper arm to take the forearm and racket toward the server's back. I'd say that most of the importance of moving the forearm and racket toward the back is involved in that ESR-ISR motion as has been discussed on the forum many times.

Wawrinka is moving his arm and racket toward the back of the court after the toss, not his back. He is not doing ESR. Suppose he had kept it back there for the toss and did not touch the tossing hand, would that have made any biomechanical difference? What is the biomechanical use of Wawrinka's motion? Is it just an option? It is different, we agree?

There are also some defined terms such as the joint motions. Not easy to describe tennis strokes even with defined words (excepting Curiosity).

If you want to use the poor selection of common but undefined tennis terms, then define them yourself or provide a link for your meaning. Definition or link for "takeback"? If you don't, there will be lots of 'what exactly does he/she mean?'

I'd vote that if you want to make clear points in forum discussions that you show a video or frames to illustrate exactly what you mean.

 

[AMGF]

My new pro pointed something out that I never noticed.

The pros ( right handed) have their racket going more out to the right on the take back rather than straight back.

Federers Racket is closed ( strings point down) and racket is more angled out to the right while Stan has his racket vertical and totally pointing to his right side.

I have a terrible serve but I hired someone to work on it and it seems I should be bringing him back to the right more. I guess this will allow for more arm movement action . My pro told me this.

I will watch the videos again tomorrow to make sure I am right.

I'm not sure if I get your point. But pros and will have their back towards the target while club players are mostly facing the target with their left shoulder (or worst some are actually facing the target head on). If you look at the Federer video above, you can clearly see the front graphics of his t-shirt while the camera is behind him. The same in the Feliciano video. Their front are facing the back fence and the backs are facing the net (to some degree, of course they are not completely facing the net with their back but I hope you get the idea).

With the extra rotation that comes from having your back facing the opposing player, the racquet take back is gonna be more outside-in as McCraw points out in the video.

 

[TennisCJC]

My new pro pointed something out that I never noticed.

The pros ( right handed) have their racket going more out to the right on the take back rather than straight back.

Federers Racket is closed ( strings point down) and racket is more angled out to the right while Stan has his racket vertical and totally pointing to his right side.

I have a terrible serve but I hired someone to work on it and it seems I should be bringing him back to the right more. I guess this will allow for more arm movement action . My pro told me this.

I will watch the videos again tomorrow to make sure I am right.

I think you are saying the racket head and racket arm come up in front of the player's shoulder plane to a certain degree. To further explain to see if I have it correct, from the lowest hand position in Federer's take back, he tends to bring the hand up at roughly a 45 degree angle to his chest and this causes his hand and racket head to stay a bit out toward the side fence. The toss hand also is to his R and more out to the side fence. It is almost as if the hands rise at 45 degree angles in relation to the shoulders with both hands being somewhat in front of the shoulders when they are lifted toward trophy phase.

Personally, I think keeping the hands and racket head out to the R for righty is sound advice.

McEnroe did take the hand and racket head back so it was nearly going straight up in line with his shoulders - the hand and racket head pointing more toward back fence than side fence when being pulled up to trophy phase.

It can be done either way but I think the Federer way of to the R (side fence) is better for the shoulder and easier to time. It is a bit more compact and I think makes the transition from lifting the arm into the racket drop a little smoother and easier.

 

[GuyClinch]

I'm not arguing whether a bad take back can cause issues with the serve or not. My beef was with what is 'take back' in a serve motion. AFAIK, 'take back' refers to the initial move before the TP and not after TP. That's how most well known coaches that I know refer to. McCraw is also talking about the initial move as "take back". Chas' question was "Do you mean before or after TP?" After I expressed my annoyance he said "Some 'takebacks' start before Trophy Position and other 'takebacks' start at Trophy Position" . In my mind, Chas is confusing "take back" with "racket drop". He is the one who is 'accusing' people of constantly confusing one issue with another. Can you point to one well known coach or a cited article(I'm talking about a cited article and not a random blog entry), where the well known racket drop after TP is called "take back"?

I agree with you - you make a good point. Take back/backswing 'ends' a bit before the trophy position - I think that's how most coaches use the term. I think Chas has not had much professional coaching - that's why the terms are so confusing to him..

I use an abbreviated serve - so its not a huge issue for me. But if I go back to a full motion - I think McCraw's tip is really good. OP should likely stick with his coach - who because of his ability to actually hit good serves likely has a lot more insight about how to teach it.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Federers Racket is closed ( strings point down) and racket is more angled out to the right while Stan has his racket vertical and totally pointing to his right side.

Right, and wrong! Federer has an in to out takeback but does something unique to achieve the racquet position you speak of (see below). Wawrinka is a down together up together (more old school?) and his racquet never points to the right. He actually does what a lot of coaches now teach against, as they seem to want either a shorter takeback or a lag in the takeback with the racquet moving across the body (and as a result the racquet will point more to the right and not straight up moving into the TP). I'm not saying the Wawrinka model is wrong, but it seems like this new model gives the best chance of developing a decent serve.

Which category does Federer's serve fall into? I have noticed he keeps his right arm mostly on his right side during the whole serve until the throwing motion. [..]

That's an interesting video and he seems to be practicing a slightly different takeback at the beginning. However, I think you're mistaken, as he certainly begins with an in to out takeback and the racquet is most definitely NOT on the right side of his body. Check almost every other Fed video and you will see the following:

It is even more apparent on the ad court. However, that's not the end of the story for Federer, as he does something that is more in accordance with the out to in method as he moves into his TP; at a certain point in his takeback he breaks the linear path by using his elbow/wrist to point the racquet directly toward the right fence with the strings facing the ground. This is possibly counterintuitive for most and is the reason why it's recommended to use the out to in method, as moving the racquet across the body from right to left in such a way is more natural.

But that's not going to be the outcome for most using this type of takeback. They end up with something like this:

Which is to be avoided at all costs (racquet face too open). They really want this:

@heninfan99 linked the best example of an in to out serve done perfectly - Lopez, and it is beautiful, so it sure can be done. Jeremy Chardy would be another example of an effective serve using this approach (although he is probably what you want to avoid).

Jeff Salzenstein is big on the racquet tip being slightly forward in the trophy position. He also advocates a slight lag between tosssing arm and takeback, racquet pointing to the right, and moving across the body.

Trophy
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q31ibv3Rphk

First move/takeback
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rpkhI3tFjM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKu42ogSBfI

Down together up together (or racquet tip straight up) versus moving across the body (why women can't serve!!):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFO9tyf_5I8

In short, the takeback can most definitely impact the quality of the trophy position.

 

[dgold44]

Stan brings his elbow up higher than most

Fed keeps his hand align with head on trophy but Stan has hand above head

 

[dgold44]

My hand is way to low around my chest in trophy

I was told

Just another reason my serve is bad

 

[Chas Tennis]

Again,

Can anyone define "takeback" in their own words or provide a link?

Does the direction of "back" always refer to the back of the court or always to the server's back (including any body rotations). Does 'takeback' vary in usage?

I have always liked this form. What second of the video does the 'takeback' begin and end?

Can you see the crisp, clear motion as Sampras does external shoulder rotation (ESR) to move the forearm & racket toward his back, 1st part of the most significant motion in tennis......?
To do single frame on Youtube, go full screen, use the "," key and the "." key.

I vote always to show the stroke video in order to avoid the ambiguity of using just words.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Annoying. Agree.

McCraw is the national director of new Zealand tennis. That makes him an authority on tennis and he can hit a decent serve to boot. ..

No he isn't. He effectively got the boot 5 or 6 years ago. He was never respected all that much as he was just some mid level coach/club player from Aussie who had the gift of the gab.

That doesn't mean his serving advice isn't sound - it's just he is no-one special in reality.

 

[GuyClinch]

^^Life is too short to be a hater. He is currently the national director of new Zealand tennis.... Whether you like his advice or not - he is certainly pretty qualified.

 

[Bobby Jr]

^^Life is too short to be a hater. He is currently the national director of new Zealand tennis.... Whether you like his advice or not - he is certainly pretty qualified.

Did you read my post? He is not, he was let go many years ago - at least 5 years.

Moreso, he was not National Director of NZ Tennis - no such role even exists. He was the Director of National Coaching - a role was to coach coaches, not players. His place was queried by the many coaches who were vastly more experienced than him who he was supposed to be assisting in improving their coaching. You can find a number of news item where he's criticised too during his time there. He was great at talking himself up but couldn't deliver the goods.

Regardless, as I also said above, it doesn't mean his serving advice isn't good. It just means your appeal to authority in stating his credentials warranted some added info.