What does a Cocked wrist do to forehand ?

[Rafter4ever]

Hey everyone,

I was recently reading an old issue of tennis magazine with the instruction tips on Moya's forehand. It mentioned that he cocked (most pros do) his wrist when he hits his forehand.

What exactly does a cocked forehand do to forehands ? Are you supposed to cocked the wrist ? I have never cocked my wrist and thats why my forehand is so bad.....

Thanks

 

[BluDiamond]

improve power??

 

[Rickson]

Hey everyone,

I was recently reading an old issue of tennis magazine with the instruction tips on Moya's forehand. It mentioned that he cocked (most pros do) his wrist when he hits his forehand.

What exactly does a cocked forehand do to forehands ? Are you supposed to cocked the wrist ? I have never cocked my wrist and thats why my forehand is so bad.....

Thanks

A stiff wrist leads to stiff and ugly forehands. **** the wrist and everything else will fall into place.

 

[vinky]

probably referring to a "laid back" wrist. they're trying to tell you not to make your groundstrokes wristy. When the top players set up their hitting arms, you'll typically see an angle of anywhere from 45 and 90 degrees between the hand and the forearm. This is combined with an elbow position which is bent and tucked into toward the side of the body.

Essentially the players keep this angle as the racket moves toward the contact, at the hit itself, and beyond the contact. I don't want to send the msg that the arm is rigid or locked - it should be the opposite, relaxed with the minimum amount of grip pressure needed to control the racquet. Sometimes as the racquet accelerates forward to the contact, you'll see this angle decrease slightly. But this is a passive movement that is a natural consequence of the swing.

 

[paulfreda]

Wrist release

probably referring to a "laid back" wrist.

Essentially the players keep this angle as the racket moves toward the contact, at the hit itself, and beyond the contact. I don't want to send the msg that the arm is rigid or locked - it should be the opposite, relaxed with the minimum amount of grip pressure needed to control the racquet. Sometimes as the racquet accelerates forward to the contact, you'll see this angle decrease slightly. But this is a passive movement that is a natural consequence of the swing.

I believe that this is NOT true.

Most pros on most (not all) shots release the wrist into the ball. It is as natural as throwing a baseball. But it is not a "natural consequence" of the swing because the forward motion of the arm will cause the wrist to stay laid back the same way a fishing pole bends back with forward motion. So a player is making a semi-conscious effort to move it forward into the ball.

Not releasing the wrist (keeping it laid back) is a good instructional tool for beginners, but quite unnatural for advanced players. It is the final link in the bio-mechanical chain.

To answer the OP's question, the c0cked wrist stores potential energy to be released into the ball at contact. The disadvantage of this technique is that it requires much more timing (and thus is more prone to mishits ) than a laid back wrist that does not release.

JMHO

 

[vinky]

I believe that this is NOT true.

Most pros on most (not all) shots release the wrist into the ball. It is as natural as throwing a baseball. But it is not a "natural consequence" of the swing because the forward motion of the arm will cause the wrist to stay laid back the same way a fishing pole bends back with forward motion. So a player is making a semi-conscious effort to move it forward into the ball.

Not releasing the wrist (keeping it laid back) is a good instructional tool for beginners, but quite unnatural for advanced players. It is the final link in the bio-mechanical chain.

To answer the OP's question, the c0cked wrist stores potential energy to be released into the ball at contact. The disadvantage of this technique is that it requires much more timing (and thus is more prone to mishits ) than a laid back wrist that does not release.

JMHO

laying back the wrist
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=46604
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=73163

 

[vinky]

on "wrist release" and others:
Federer: a wristy forehand?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=33747
The infamous wrist release
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=34565

 

[vinky]

Federer's and Hewitt's FH (high-speed camera clip):
http://www.araf72.dsl.pipex.com/1000FPS.mpg
Federer (warmup)
http://geocities.com/ma12k408/Federer_FH.mov
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...oger+FEdere r

Check out these slow motion videos, and observe the wrist. Before contact, during contact, and after contact, you can see almost no movement of the wrist at all.

 

[vinky]

check out this website on the myth of the wrist

http://students.washington.edu/vtl/wrist.htm

 

[paulfreda]

Vinky
Have to run right now, but on the Quicktime .mov warmup piece, I see a very clear release of the wrist. Just before contact he is at 90deg layback and at contact he is at 45deg. Before the racquet gets to the left side of his body on follow thru, he is straight armed at 0 degrees. Clearly a wrist release to me.
Same thing although not as obvious on the high speed mpg clip (nice clip there !).

Reasonable men can disagree.
No problem.

 

[vinky]

i think much of our disagreement stems from the reliance of terminology that has a lot of variation in terms of how we can perceive it. I think in the past, this topic could be argued for a long time and very little progress would be made, but now we don't really need to continue that.

look at the past posts, they've already talked about this same issue. check the videos and the web sites... we can now VISUALLY see what's going on due to hi speed video technology. listen to some of the experts, such as John Yandell, who investigates these types of questions for a living.

You may look at all this, and still hold your same beliefs. That is fine. As long as you take something positive from this, I'll be happy and not feel like I've just wasted my time.

 

[vinky]

I'm not saying that there is no wrist release, obviously. But it happens AFTER contact. That's my stance.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

to the OP:

you should read the Sticky (topmost thread here)
my posting on FH Issues
esp
laying back the wrist

 

[JCo872]

Federer wrist release

Here is an example of an extreme wrist release from Federer:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/wrist_release.cfm

I like paulfreda's explanation very much. Especially the part about "the last link in the bio-mechanical chain" and the part about storing potential energy. Both are right on. The only thing I would add is that on contact, the released wrist has "caught up" to the hitting arm, so that
the arm and wrist (now at about 45 degrees not 90) both go through the ball. You definitely
wouldn't want to release the wrist and just hit the ball with your wrist. Ouch that would hurt.

 

[vinky]

I understand and acknowledge the wrist release that people are talking about in this thread. In the videos, I do see that the angle decrease slightly before contact, suggesting that movement of the wrist does take place. Some people call this a "wrist release". Others, like Mahboob Khan, call it an "educated use of the wrist", and John Yandell describes it as a passive movement that is a natural consequence of the swing.

They're all trying to explain pretty much the same thing. BUT, the take-home message here is that the wrist is laid back before, during, and after contact.

 

[paulfreda]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/aftercontact.cfm

These pics at contact show that the wrist is at 45 degrees to the arm. Since just prior to contact the wrist was at 90 degrees for most/nearly all the players, clearly there is a release DURING the shot, not after the shot.

This is not done on all shots. DTL or CC topspin pass, you would not want a wrist release. You need a full windshield wiper swing then. But for many shots releasing the wrist is like adding a little bit of bullwhip motion into the swing. Definitely not something for beginners, this is advanced technique for sure.

Again JMHO.

 

[vinky]

http://students.washington.edu/vtl/AARevised.swf

 

[JCo872]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/aftercontact.cfm

These pics at contact show that the wrist is at 45 degrees to the arm. Since just prior to contact the wrist was at 90 degrees for most/nearly all the players, clearly there is a release DURING the shot, not after the shot.

This is not done on all shots. DTL or CC topspin pass, you would not want a wrist release. You need a full windshield wiper swing then. But for many shots releasing the wrist is like adding a little bit of bullwhip motion into the swing. Definitely not something for beginners, this is advanced technique for sure.

Again JMHO.

Yes, 45 degrees on contact. Couldn't agree more. Actually those pics are one frame AFTER contact, so you can see that the wrist remains at the solid 45 degree position on and after contact.

 

[vinky]

If there was a change from a 90 degree angle, to an 45 degree angle, it does not occur during contact at all. Its important to keep in mind that there is no "snap" during the contact. The arm should be relaxed and the grip pressure as light as possible, but for the most part the wrist is essentially along for the ride. Any forward movement, if and when it does occur, is a natural consequence of the swing. Focusing on using or worse snapping the wrist is "counterproductive in generating power or spin" according to John Yandell.

Sometimes the amount of layback, and therefore the angle between the racket and the forearm, decreases as the racket comes forward to the ball (which is often described as a wrist release). When this movement does happen, it seems obvious that it is a natural consequence of the swing--and the fact that the players are staying as relaxed as possible.

If there were a conscious "snap" or muscle contraction coinciding with the hit, we would see the angle between the racket and the forearm changing radically just before and after contact. If you think about, if a player really snapped his wrist all the way forward at contact, it would send the ball into the left side fence. In the hundreds of forehand video clips out there, the wrist remained substantially laid back both before and after contact. In fact, we sometimes see the laid back angle actually increase slightly after contact due to the impact of the ball. Again this is due to relaxation in the hitting arm.

The high speed video also shows that the top players maintain the hitting arm position, keeping the wrist back, until the racket and racket hand are well out past the contact. Typically, this appears to be around two feet or so into the followthrough. Only after reaching this point does the hitting arm clearly start to lose its characteristic shape. Here I personally think the real wrist release occurs. At this point the ball has been off the strings for a significant amount of time.

 

[JCo872]

If there was a change from a 90 degree angle, to an 45 degree angle, it does not occur during contact at all. Its important to keep in mind that there is no "snap" during the contact. The arm should be relaxed and the grip pressure as light as possible, but for the most part the wrist is essentially along for the ride. Any forward movement, if and when it does occur, is a natural consequence of the swing. Focusing on using or worse snapping the wrist is "counterproductive in generating power or spin" according to John Yandell.

Sometimes the amount of layback, and therefore the angle between the racket and the forearm, decreases as the racket comes forward to the ball (which is often described as a wrist release). When this movement does happen, it seems obvious that it is a natural consequence of the swing--and the fact that the players are staying as relaxed as possible.

If there were a conscious "snap" or muscle contraction coinciding with the hit, we would see the angle between the racket and the forearm changing radically just before and after contact. If you think about, if a player really snapped his wrist all the way forward at contact, it would send the ball into the left side fence. In the hundreds of forehand video clips out there, the wrist remained substantially laid back both before and after contact. In fact, we sometimes see the laid back angle actually increase slightly after contact due to the impact of the ball. Again this is due to relaxation in the hitting arm.

The high speed video also shows that the top players maintain the hitting arm position, keeping the wrist back, until the racket and racket hand are well out past the contact. Typically, this appears to be around two feet or so into the followthrough. Only after reaching this point does the hitting arm clearly start to lose its characteristic shape. Here I personally think the real wrist release occurs. At this point the ball has been off the strings for a significant amount of time.

Yes exactly. From contact on, the wrist stays back. No question about it.

 

[vinky]

Essentially, if there was a true "wrist release" during contact, the wrist would not maintain that 45 degree angle after contact - it would be much less.

 

[vinky]

I don't know if people missed it the first time, but i think it's worth posting again: http://students.washington.edu/vtl/AARevised.swf

It is a very good clip showing Andre Agassi maintaining the characteristics of the angle of his wrist before and after contact.

 

[JCo872]

Check out the wrist release of Calleri in this clip:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/x_release.cfm

As the wrist releases the tip of the racquet comes around slowing it down. By the time the racquet is on the ball, the wrist has "caught up" with the arm and together they both go through the ball. The wrist doesn't move anymore until well after contact, as Vinky stated.

 

[habib]

Check out the wrist release of Calleri in this clip:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/x_release.cfm

As the wrist releases the tip of the racquet comes around slowing it down. By the time the racquet is on the ball, the wrist has "caught up" with the arm and together they both go through the ball. The wrist doesn't move anymore until well after contact, as Vinky stated.

But this is not what vinky stated. He said the wrist remains laid back before, during, and after contact. In fact, the wrist releases right before contact, and will either stay back or release completely during and after contact, depending on the shot, and the grip.

Agassi uses an eastern grip, so he is actually not the best model here, since the eastern grip doesn't make nearly as much use of the wrist in general as the SW and western.

 

[mucat]

I agree with Vinky. Wrist should be firm but not stiff (no muscling the ball) during contact, then afterward the wrist can relax and move forward during the follow thru. I think what people saw was the wrist movement after contact.

BTW, Agassi uses SW FH grip