Which One? Roddick or Federer?

[rbowser]

Anyway guys, I have a rather long question. I've been trying to strengthen my serve these past couple of months. When I first started to take tennis seriously, I took lessons. For my serve, I was taught the 'traditional' style of the serve with the backloop and everything. I kinda copied Federer since I watched him and my serve was okay, but not good enough. After around 5 months of rapid improvement (generally) , I decided to change my serve style. Again, don't get on my back about reading old posts because I HAVE READ ALMOST ALL THE POSTS RELATING TO RODDICK SERVES. Ok. So I decided to do an abbreviated service motion much like Roddick. My serves were faster paced, and everything seemed better. That went fine, but because of my bad service toss (yes, I have been reading all those posts as well), it wasn't any more consistent than my beginning serve. Now, RECENTLY , for some odd reason, I switched back to a Federer-esque style. The traditional style. Apart from struggling the first few serves, my service motion was much more fluid, and didn't require much effort to generate pace. (My toss is still shaky btw) The thing that bothered me was that even though it didn't require much effort for serves at a decent speed, my Roddick style serve was faster. I'm really CONFUZZLED on which one to pick. I would want to ask my teacher/pro, but I'm not taking lessons right now.

-So guys, RODDICK SERVE OR FEDERER SERVE ??

One last question: When I try either serve, my toss is bad and it keeps going to the left because of my jerky arm motion. This occurs less with my 'federer' serve. Either way, it happens. And another thing: Why does my body shift to the left after serving? I try going foward with my right leg kicking back after contact, but I usually go left, with the occasional correct 'foward'? How could I change this?

~Anyways, Thanks a lot for reading my little essay here, and tips and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! :mrgreen:

 

[circusmouse]

Federer, clearly. Roddick's serve shouldn't even be attempted by anyone below the 4.0 level. It's a waste of time and will only develop bad habits.

First, you've got to get your toss under control, though, or none of it matters. Toss with a straight arm, holding the balls lightly with the finger tips. Imagine it going into the right place, and don't swing if it doesn't. Let it drop and start over or you're just reinforcing bad habits.

The classic serve relies on rhythm and weight transfer. Start with your weight on the front foot and rock back GENTLY onto the back foot as you toss and raise the hitting arm. Then move forward into the ball. For me, it helps to think of the serve as a throwing motion. This should help you fall more forward than left, but there may still be some leftward movement.

 

[jamauss]

Something to keep in mind with these 2 serves...

Roddick's is more centered around flat out power while Federer's involves a lot of pin-point timing/rythm. There are pretty different motions, IMO.

 

[rbowser]

Thanks a lot. I know when you toss, the ball should be still w/ practically no spin. Pros do it all the time, and when you say 'toss' with a straight arm, for some reason, when I try it , it seems to 'tense' up; overall, how do I get my serve motion more relaxed?

 

[Doc Hollidae]

The Federer service motion is much more simplistic and fluid. Many players use similar motions. Sampras' is somewhat similar, but with more knee bend. Agassi sets up similarly as well, but his service motion is a little more "hurried" and less fluid than Sampras' or Federer's. You really can't go wrong with the Federer set up though, just add a little more knee bend for pace.

 

[tursafinov]

I was in your shoes entirely today.

I was doing my daily 2 hours of serving and alternating between the two...when magic happened. I tried the Fernando Gonzalez serve!

My consistancy and first serve power went up (which lifted my confidence).

When I get the roddick serve right..then yeah it's addicting. I have the best kick serves with that motion (especially with light stock raquets) the RPMs are nuts.

Federer...well you kind of feel like a champ doing it (and that's what keeps it fun). I have my most successful flat serves down the T with it.

watch Gonzalez and try it.
I found it has the power/velocity of Roddick, but is more energy conserving like the Fed style

You'll figure it out,
~Tursa

 

[circusmouse]

The reason the classical motion is better for beginners is that it relies largely on a fluid, rhythmic transfer of weight to create power, whereas Roddick relies on pure muscle, which most tennis players lack. You asked how to relax the arm for the toss. I'd suggest developing rhythm so that you don't have to tense up to develop power. I'd also recommend taking a deep breath before you start your motion. The reason I recommend rocking the body back and forth is that it develops easy power. Service power comes from directing the body's momentum into the ball by rocking back and forward, bending and straightening the knees (note that I didn't say jumping, because you probably shouldn't try intentionally jumping), and extending and pronating the arm into the ball. If the arm is loose, it easily snaps through the ball. As for how to loosen the arm, I'd say focus on what a loose arm feels like. Search the forums for "loose arm" or look through the article instructions at tennis.com. I think one of those articles recommends swinging with a towel to develop a loose arm.

If you expect to learn to serve overnight, you're delusional. It takes a long time to perfect the service motion. Practice practice practice.

 

[rbowser]

You're absolutley right. I've been trying to practice and practice and practice. I know it takes years to master. I mean, that's how the pro
's got good, along with proper instruction. I was just asking you guys what was better because I might play a match with my friend next week. (He says he's rather good, so I wanted to tune everything up before) The towel thing I kinda tried, my Pro taught me by using a weighted sock. My fluid motion on contact is fine he says, but my main problem is the timing and the toss.

 

[The Gorilla]

The reason the classical motion is better for beginners is that it relies largely on a fluid, rhythmic transfer of weight to create power, whereas Roddick relies on pure muscle, which most tennis players lack. You asked how to relax the arm for the toss. I'd suggest developing rhythm so that you don't have to tense up to develop power. I'd also recommend taking a deep breath before you start your motion. The reason I recommend rocking the body back and forth is that it develops easy power. Service power comes from directing the body's momentum into the ball by rocking back and forward, bending and straightening the knees (note that I didn't say jumping, because you probably shouldn't try intentionally jumping), and extending and pronating the arm into the ball. If the arm is loose, it easily snaps through the ball. As for how to loosen the arm, I'd say focus on what a loose arm feels like. Search the forums for "loose arm" or look through the article instructions at tennis.com. I think one of those articles recommends swinging with a towel to develop a loose arm.

If you expect to learn to serve overnight, you're delusional. It takes a long time to perfect the service motion. Practice practice practice.

well put .

 

[rbowser]

How high should I toss the ball?

 

[Doc Hollidae]

About as high as your arm and racket are when fully extended.

 

[Hot Sauce]

I've been in your situation before, it really is quite frustrating.

I'd probably go with the Federer serve. Please don't ask me for justification

 

[drakulie]

You are most-likely hitting faster when you do an abbreviated motion because you are tossing the ball and immediately hitting it. This motion is very quick.

With the classic style, the motion is slower, and this is probably causing you to have a slower swing.

Seems to me from reading your post you should go with the abbreviated motion, since it is resulting in a more natural/faster swing speed for you. But you have to practice your toss.

Good luck.

 

[rbowser]

Okay guys. I tried serving again today. In the beginning, my serve was crap again, using the classic style. I decided to switch it up and use the abbreviated. The abbreviated didn't help anymore because of course, my toss is still one of the worst, but even when I told my partner to 'evaluate me', my toss was fine but everything seemed to go awry. After being frustrated, I was pretty mad. Then, I got happy, but still mad because when I was steaming with anger and serving; the classic style worked like if I was almost pro. (only for like 3 serves though) My toss was shaky, but better than before. My timing was perfect for those serves and I hit faster than I ever hit with that kind of serve; and I bet it was faster than using the abbreviated. Honestly, I would rather use the abbreviated because it does seem to produce faster shots, but with today's and yesterday's result's, I think I should go back to the classic.
-One more thing: when everything kinda went bad, my serves kept either going long (further than the service line, probably of toss and timing), but then some went into the net. The long balls I understood what I did wrong, but how 'bout the ones that ended up in the net?

 

[dave333]

I use a variation that is a mixture of the service motion of gonzo, roddick, and the #1 singles for the tennis team (he pwns! lolz)

 

[Mr. Hokey]

do keep in mind that roddick previously had a sampras-esque motion and then converted to what he has now. practice the traditional style first to get the foundation and important points, then make it unique for yourself.

 

[NamRanger]

You guys honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Roddick does not muscle his serve. If he did he would not be blasting 140 mph serves with ease. His serve is the exact same thing as Federer's, the only differences are that Roddick and Federer get to the "Trophy" position differently. Roddick's arm whips so fast that most people think that he's muscling the ball when in reality it's just that his shoulder is a freak of nature and that it can handle rotating that fast while Federer's can't do such a thing.



What most people fail to realize is that Roddick has incredible knee and backbend, and since he drops his shoulder so low, his racquet has more time to accelerate, thus increasing his racquet head speed. He does all this in a short abbreviated motion, and with a relatively low toss.

 

[rbowser]

Wow. Lots of things you guys must know. One thing: I'm not really as noobish as you think; and I could do some placement. I could do placemet w/ my abbreviated serve, but with my classic style; I find it a little more difficult. Anyway how I can help hone my placement?Down the T, Out wide, and body shot??

 

[skiracer55]

A couple of thoughts...

- Stop worrying about trying to serve like Roddick or Federer and figure out a serve that works for you. Yep, there are certain elements or fundamentals you can't ignore...such as, but not limited to, having a good toss. I've learned a lot of stuff from my coaches and from watching really good players from the WTA and ATP on down, but my serve is really my serve...and it does the job.

- Having said all that good stuff, what Circusmouse says is pretty much on target...if you want to choose, choose Federer, not because his serve is necessarily *better* than Roddick's, it's just more achievable for the rest of us. The thing I find most difficult and troubling about Roddick's serve is that he has a really strange little hitch or arhythmical section in the middle, and that's probably one of the items that (a) gives him a lot of velocity, because he really accelerates in this phase (b) is likely, in my opinion, to give him back problems, among other things and (c) is the hardest to imitate.

- You need to get with your pro and have him or her help you construct a good, dependable serve. We're willing to help, but it's hard to come up with any wholistic and usable advice...especially without a video of your serve.

- Having said all that good stuff...here's some stuff my last coach (Sam Winterbotham, currently Head Men's Coach of the Tennessee Vols) told me that really helped straighten out my serve:

- Re your toss, as many other people have noted, it's not a toss, it's a lift. You're trying to place an egg on a mantlepiece. If you throw or toss it, it'll break.

- Beginners are taught to start the toss and backswing at the same time. The best servers get a lot of the backswing done before the toss. If you toss early, you have to adjust your swing to where the toss happened to end up. If you get a lot of the backswing done, you have a better chance of placing the ball where you want it for whatever you're trying to do with the serve.

- The power servers are using a Continental or even a little over toward the forehand grip from that. If you get into what is really a semi-Western backhand grip, you may get more spin, but you'll definitely cut down on the power, and you may not be able to direct the ball very well. Use Continental and adjust the swing path to get whatever spin or direction you want.

- The best servers are using a relatively simple, abbreviated backswing. Like a lot of other things in life, simpler is usually better. My backswing starts at waist level, goes out and up. I don't drop the racket to make a big loop. The fewer curlicues you have on your service stroke, the easier it is to come up with a toss that's as high as you need and no higher. If you have a lot of fruit salad on your backswing, you have to toss up into the stratosphere...and then hope you time it right.

- Serving, like all of tennis, is a leg sport, not an arm sport. Actually, it's a whole body sport. If you want more spin, power, safety, direction on your serve, get the legs, hips, shoulder turn, all of the parts working together.

- As Stan Smith noted, the wrist is the trigger. I'm talking about getting snap on the serve, which is the final link in the kinesthetic chain that gets power, spin, and all the other goodies on the serve. There are drills you can do to get more snap...like getting yourself into the back-scratching position, or whatever it's called these days, tossing, and trying to belt the serve down into the court as hard as possible...hard enough to bounce it over the fence is usually a good goal.

- Rhythm and sense of all the parts of the serve working together is definitely key. Another of my former coaches (Dave Hodge, former Men's Assistant at CU Boulder, current Men's Assistant at Stanford) gave me a great way to look at serving: The serve is the only stroke you hit that is not a response to the other player's stroke. Therefore, have an objective every time, even if it's "Okay, second serve, lots of kick and safety, straight down the middle." If your thought is "Hail Mary, full of grace, I hope this serve isn't a fault", guess what? You'll whap it right into the net. What he said was, make up a little video in your head of what you're going to do with the service motion and where that's going to take the ball into your opponent's service box. Take a deep breath, relax, and replay the video in real time. Works like a charm...

 

[Jonny S&V]

I have changed my service motion at least 30 times ( no joke ) and I must say that the Puerta service motion is very fluid and is my default service motion now. You can make it as fluid as you want and you can try to use as much muscle as you want. It is really a swiss army knife of serves, as it is really easy to hit kick, flat, and a slice serve with it. My motto is the simpler the motion, the better the serve at the recreational level.

 

[rbowser]

My motto is the simpler the motion, the better the serve at the recreational level.

Lol. Yeah, I'm not really trying to imitate them, but I like their perfect forms, so trying to do the right thing isn't really wrong right? ^ Your right, the less complicated, the more you concentrate on your serve. And BTW, what makes you think im at the recreational level? Lol :grin: I know I'm not really any better, but I take tennis seriously...GrRrRr.

 

[skiracer55]

See what I said, above...

Lol. Yeah, I'm not really trying to imitate them, but I like their perfect forms, so trying to do the right thing isn't really wrong right? ^ Your right, the less complicated, the more you concentrate on your serve. And BTW, what makes you think im at the recreational level? Lol :grin: I know I'm not really any better, but I take tennis seriously...GrRrRr.

...neither one of them has perfect form, least of all Roddick, but that's okay, because the serve is the most idiosyncratic stroke, and whatever works for you and gets the job done is the right serve. See what I say, above, which is that you are going to fail if you insist on playing this "Roddick or Federer?" game...

 

[rbowser]

Lol. I know. I'm just interested on your guys' perspectives. And relax, I read your skillfully put explanation and I appreciate it. Thx

 

[skiracer55]

Sounds good...

Lol. I know. I'm just interested on your guys' perspectives. And relax, I read your skillfully put explanation and I appreciate it. Thx

...good luck...