Why struggling against weak 2nd serves?

[JackB1]

Me and my doubles partner (3.5 level) lost a match last night and the most obvious reason was we both hit many UEs on serve returns. And I am not talking about off hard first serves. Most of our errors came on weak 2nd serves. Kind of slow to medium pace, low and short 2nd serves that they were just "getting in". I was hitting many of them long and my partner was hitting many into the net.

Question is what causes this and how do you prevent this? I know we need to practice these more, but what else can we do to hit a good return off these types of serves? Do you need to really exagerate the "high to low" swing and use heavy topspin? What's the safest way to just hit a good, deep return and neutralize the serve? Do you take a normal fast swing or slow it down and just punch it back in? These serves were below waist height, so you couldn't just take a hard flat swing and put them away. Lots of women have this type of serve...it's just medium pace, flat and stays low.

 

[TennisNewb]

I was having this problem for a while. Here is how I corrected mine problem. I hit with topspin on the Forehand side and everytime I hit one of the weaker serves it would sail long and I couldn't figure out why. My doubles partner asked why I slowed my swing down for a slower ball.

I didn't really know I was doing it but I did. So the next one came and I took a huge crack at it like my normal forehand and I hit a clean winner down the line past the net man.

My problem was slowing down and not swinging though the ball with my semi western grip and with the slow brush up the ball never had enough RPMs to come back down until it was way to deep. So speeding my swing back up to normal put the usually spin on it.

Also step further up in the court

 

[Nellie]

Too many people hit unforced errors trying to go for too much on service returns. You need to practice putting away short/slow balls balls. This means getting used to moving forward to take the shot closer to the net and at a higher point. You can't whack shots from the baseline and expect high percentage returns.

If you are missing a lot trying to hit winners, go for placement. If I am hitting a placement shot, I like to go (1) wide angle at the server for a winner, or (2) between the server and netperson as an approach shot. If you want to whack the ball, hit a couple at the netperson. Even if you miss, you may cause an error from the other team or at least cause the netperson to have to think about getting hit.

 

[Power Player]

Most likely you are :

Not preparing properly.

Lifting your head and taking your eyes off the ball.

Arming the ball instead of hitting with a relaxed swing.

Using the wrong racquet.

Ok, I was kidding about the last one

 

[JackB1]

Most likely you are :

Not preparing properly.

Lifting your head and taking your eyes off the ball.

Arming the ball instead of hitting with a relaxed swing.

Using the wrong racquet.

Ok, I was kidding about the last one

Don't get me started!!!

You are probably right about the 1st 2 items. It's weird how sometimes easier balls give you more problems than harder tougher serves.

 

[Power Player]

Yeah its because you have more time and go into KILL mode. Same thing happens with easy sitters. It can be hard to keep your eye on the ball and stay relaxed in your swing, but that is what you need to do.

 

[goran_ace]

why are you hitting long - i.e. where are you aiming - ankles, side T, or are you trying to hit through your opponent? are you spinning the ball? do you have a driving slice or chip return in your toolbag or do you hit it like your normal flat/topspin groundstroke?

also, the fact that you said they were below waist height tells me that you were waiting for it on the baseline instead of moving forward and making contact inside the baseline. move in and that same ball is at or above waist height. I don't mean stand right behind the service line, step forward and move into your shot (remember to split step).

 

[goran_ace]

and I also agree with the others that said it is a mental thing/pressure. too many players try to do too much with second serve returns. you don't have to win the point going for a clean winner. in fact, unless your return is considered on of your weapons (and by that I mean you can hit consistently with power and placement; not just the ability to swing hard) you have no business teeing off on a second serve return unless you get one that sits up just right or the score is 0-40. if you can hit that shot 80% or more of the time then bomb away, but if not you are only wasting your opportunities to manufacture a break. you can take control of the point without crusihing the ball. make the server have to hit a tough first volley at his/her ankles. swing him out wide by slicing a return to the side T and open up the middle.

 

[JackB1]

why are you hitting long - i.e. where are you aiming - ankles, side T, or are you trying to hit through your opponent? are you spinning the ball? do you have a driving slice or chip return in your toolbag or do you hit it like your normal flat/topspin groundstroke?

also, the fact that you said they were below waist height tells me that you were waiting for it on the baseline instead of moving forward and making contact inside the baseline. move in and that same ball is at or above waist height. I don't mean stand right behind the service line, step forward and move into your shot (remember to split step).

I do think we need to move up and into the ball more...taking it at it's highest point. Typically I was trying to hit a normal topspin groundstroke deep return into the back corner of the doubles court. I do have a BH and FH slice, but I never tried that yesterday.

 

[goran_ace]

I do think we need to move up and into the ball more...taking it at it's highest point. Typically I was trying to hit a normal topspin groundstroke deep return into the back corner of the doubles court. I do have a BH and FH slice, but I never tried that yesterday.

also moving forward will also give you a better angle to bring the server out wide. again, no need to hit a clean winner that lands on the doubles sideline, but if you roll the ball crosscourt to the side T or in the alley and let the spin and angle do what they are suppsed to do you open up the middle and expose the server's partner at the net.

 

[TimothyO]

Over the last couple of months I've been focused on "Anti-Dinker" play since we see so many dinks at lower levels. Here's what I've learned:

1. Move Aggressively: move up and take the shot at the top of the arc...don't wait for it to drop.

2. Be Confident: see these as sitting ducks and don't choke your swing! Too often we break our swing to "avoid hitting long" which makes it impossible to generate top spin to actually avoid hitting long!

3. Don't Over-Hit: this is the corollary to #2. If you try to arm it/kill it you'll lose your form and become less accurate and won't generate topspin. Stay frosty. It's amazing how "slow" you can swing and still generate enough power off the sting bed's sweet spot for the ball to move with fast pace.

4. Taking 2 & 3 Together: Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast when it comes to tennis strokes. Start your swing slow, "find the ball", and then accelerate evenly to higher power while looking the ball into the sweet spot.

Moving to the PSLGT also helped me with its lower power and greater precision for touch shots against sitters.

 

[JackB1]

All great advice! Thanks!

 

[GuyClinch]

Good advice here..

I think a good rule of thumb is that if the serve bounces below the net you either want to exaggerate the topspin OR consider a slice shot.

Since the serve is slow enough you can pick which side you want to hit it from and the kind of shot you want to use. What you can't do is try to smack the crap out of it with a flat forehand..

To really smack a clear winner off a wimpy second serve you want it bouncing above the net - then you can flatten out and really smack it. Some dinkers do serve like this too..

The best dinkers though hit the ball so soft that it barely clears the net and then on clay it barely bounces at all. This sets up hard young hitting guys for failure. Frequently guys will get "mad" about the low pace of these serves and try to punish them. But without the skills to really hit huge topspin this doesnt work.

 

[sphinx780]

Footwork plain and simple is a major cause of easy sitters falling by the wayside and poor service return in many cases.

TimO nailed it. Make sure your feet don't stop. Split step, move into the ball and hit through it.

 

[mightyrick]

My problem was slowing down and not swinging though the ball with my semi western grip and with the slow brush up the ball never had enough RPMs to come back down until it was way to deep. So speeding my swing back up to normal put the usually spin on it.

This is a concept that I'm just now trying to come to grips with. I hear all of this stuff about thousands of RPMs that the professionals get.

How many RPMs is good enough for a recreational player? I'm not saying that I would be able to count the RPMs by looking at the ball. But if I can see the ball spinning forward, is that enough? Does it have to be so fast that the ball looks like a fuzzy blur?

I'm just not getting my head around the amount of topspin necessary to bring the ball down. My knowledge of physics tells me that harder shots need more topspin. But I just don't know the relationship in terms of ratios.

 

[Power Player]

I want to turn mine into an oval anytime i can, but I have been hitting with topspin since a little kid..lol.

 

[charliefedererer]

Me and my doubles partner (3.5 level) lost a match last night and the most obvious reason was we both hit many UEs on serve returns. And I am not talking about off hard first serves. Most of our errors came on weak 2nd serves. Kind of slow to medium pace, low and short 2nd serves that they were just "getting in". I was hitting many of them long and my partner was hitting many into the net.

Question is what causes this and how do you prevent this? I know we need to practice these more, but what else can we do to hit a good return off these types of serves? Do you need to really exagerate the "high to low" swing and use heavy topspin? What's the safest way to just hit a good, deep return and neutralize the serve? Do you take a normal fast swing or slow it down and just punch it back in? These serves were below waist height, so you couldn't just take a hard flat swing and put them away. Lots of women have this type of serve...it's just medium pace, flat and stays low.

50% of your points start with the return of serve.

Are you and your partner spending a huge amount of your practice time hitting each other second serves to practice returning them? Do you warm each other up before play starts with at least a few?

Theory is great.

Practice is better.

With practice you'll which way(s) of the above suggestions will work for you.

(My guess it will be with medium pace, medium spun well placed cross court balls because as not being touring pros you will not have enough practice time to perfect high speed, high spin dipping shots against low serves.)

 

[lonux]

Returning agressive is not the same as blasting the ball. It can sometimes mean as much as hitting a medium paced, well placed shot to help you construct the rally.

I try to mix hitting down the line, inside-out forehands and body shots. Especially the last can be effective when executed well.

 

[Sreeram]

This is a problem with most of the teams against which I play. i enjoy a lot when my partner has a just put it in serve. The reason being as a net man I get enough time to watch the opponent to see where he is hitting, also most of the time they hit it well above the net with lot of spin, which is easy for a net man to volley.
When I play against a slow server in doubles I normally try to hit hard towards a net man and then move in to volley with him.

 

[olliess]

How many RPMs is good enough for a recreational player? I'm not saying that I would be able to count the RPMs by looking at the ball. But if I can see the ball spinning forward, is that enough? Does it have to be so fast that the ball looks like a fuzzy blur?

It needs to be fast enough that you can hit with a comfortable, full swing and the ball clears the net with a reasonable margin but still goes in. It's really something you need to groove by experience and adjustment -- there's no way that I know of that you can "understand" this in any abstract sense and have it work.

 

[andy_carterbx]

Footwork plain and simple is a major cause of easy sitters falling by the wayside and poor service return in many cases.

TimO nailed it. Make sure your feet don't stop. Split step, move into the ball and hit through it.

I agree! Footwork is the main key! If you're in the right position, then you'll probably hit the ball appropriately. Read this article to improve your footwork - http://ezinearticles.com/?Learn-Tennis---3-Proven-Footwork-Drills-That-Improve-Your-Game&id=6128610

 

[prattle128]

I face these kind of serves all the time. What you have to tell yourself to do, and really commit to doing is just attacking the ball. It doesn't mean you have to hit a winner, but an attacking approach shot- since it's a weak/short serve you should be coming in on it since you're playing doubles. Not only will you put the other team under pressure with your returns but also with your aggressive positioning.

Edit: Read some more of the responses and they're right- you can not stop moving since these kind of serves will just die on you if you wait for it. Be proactive with your footwork and attack the ball by moving your weight through the shot.

 

[mightyrick]

Something that has help me immensely is Will Hamilton's and Yann Auzoux's explanation about hitting from different "zones". I used to always hit weak second serves long. Their explanation really helped me a lot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFwtQWzF0OI

Everyone in this thread is talking footwork footwork footwork -- which is obviously necessary -- but that isn't all there is. You have to swing differently at the short sitter/weak second serve.

I used to hit these balls long because I would just take my regular rally-ball forehand and try to tee off on it. That was no good. Even with good footwork, good setup, and good followthrough. After watching the above video, I realized I need to practice specifically for the short ball.

After practicing it a lot, my short ball stroke is WAY different then my baseline stroke. My takeback is nowhere near as low. My swing plane is much more flat or high-to-low. Also, I am taking the ball near or at its apex -- which sometimes is shoulder high.

It can help a lot to "drop hit" balls at the service line. But make sure to drop them so that they bounce higher and try to swing at them when they are shoulder/chest high. It took me awhile, but I'm finally getting the hang of it.