Why videos are not very helpful

[maxpotapov]

I tried to learn from the videos of ATP professionals A LOT. Matches, practice sessions, behind view, slow motion, frame by frame analysis, everything.

While I could get some cues from them here and there, those materials were misleading more often than not. Eventually I came to realization why:

1. I visualize my own motion from a totally different point of view than camera
2. I always see only 2D projection of 3D motion and guess the rest
3. I can't capture the "rhythm" of the swing, especially in slow motion video
4. Even if I use my own video from same POV, imitating is still a guesswork
5. My mind always tricks me into belief that I look just like what I saw on video
6. Camera angle and body rotation makes it difficult to establish a contact zone if seen from my own eyes
7... (You name it)

And last but not least: actual motion is not just four-dimensional, but is built around masses and inertia (of ball, racquet and body), and "elasticity"/SSC of the muscles -- all of which can only be experienced internally.

Besides, each player has different anatomy and unique way of how brain is wired. That's why there are countless variations of swing styles and techniques among the best players that others want to imitate.

Without a good coach who can trick you into experiencing the right motion (using video materials or not), learning from observation is very inefficient and often counterproductive.

 

[MauricioDias]

I think if you start with videos of your own game you can achieve better results, because you need to know where you are making mistakes and correct them. After that if you want to improve your game trying a new technique, not imitating but learning about the tecnique, the videos can be helpfull.

 

[mightyrick]

I tried to learn from the videos of ATP professionals A LOT. Matches, practice sessions, behind view, slow motion, frame by frame analysis, everything.

While I could get some cues from them here and there, those materials were misleading more often than not. Eventually I came to realization why:

1. I visualize my own motion from a totally different point of view than camera
2. I always see only 2D projection of 3D motion and guess the rest
3. I can't capture the "rhythm" of the swing, especially in slow motion video
4. Even if I use my own video from same POV, imitating is still a guesswork
5. My mind always tricks me into belief that I look just like what I saw on video
6. Camera angle and body rotation makes it difficult to establish a contact zone if seen from my own eyes
7... (You name it)

And last but not least: actual motion is not just four-dimensional, but is built around masses and inertia (of ball, racquet and body), and "elasticity"/SSC of the muscles -- all of which can only be experienced internally.

Besides, each player has different anatomy and unique way of how brain is wired. That's why there are countless variations of swing styles and techniques among the best players that others want to imitate.

Without a good coach who can trick you into experiencing the right motion (using video materials or not), learning from observation is very inefficient and often counterproductive.

Good post. I think video is useful from a comparison perspective. By looking at yourself on video, you can at least identify issues.

But I agree 100% that a good live coach is needed to teach the "feel" of the mechanics. I tried for three years to do this on my own with only video and it was absolutely impossible.

For example, the first thing that my coach did was teach me the feel of the low-to-high mechanic. He told me to change nothing else in my stroke and to only focus for two straight weeks on nothing but my right hand touching my left ear at the finish. He had to actually make physical corrections while I was shadow swinging many times.

The next thing he did was tell me to get set in my stance fulling facing the side fence on every forehand. I did that for two straight weeks.

The next two months he dedicated to what he called "breaking the wrist". This was the introduction of the SSC. Again, he had to physically move my wrist dozens of times to help me with the feel. He had me stand three feet from the net and hit imaginary forehands until my racquet no longer hit the net. I must have done this hundreds of times. Again, physical adjustments were necessary all throughout.

Anyways, those are just examples. I never used to understand the value of a live coach until I had this experience. Now I see how vital a live coach is. I also understand the lack of value of internet coaching. All an internet coach can do is tell you is what is wrong, but they really can't help a person get "the feel" of a mechanic.

 

[Chas Tennis]

What camera do you use when you take high speed videos of your own strokes?
What frame rate?
Can you post any videos of a serve?

 

[maxpotapov]

I was referring to ATP professionals' videos as seen on Youtube and TV, including high speed videos

 

[maxpotapov]

^^mightyrick, my point exactly! d-(^.^)z

 

[Chas Tennis]

I see the main use of high speed video as:

1) Select an example of a high level stroke that is clearly shown in high speed video, 200-300 fps, with small motion blur.

2) Take a similar high speed video of your stroke.

3) Compare positions of body parts or joint angles. Put your attention on the differences that are almost always flaws in your stroke technique.

If you only meant watching pro videos - without comparing to your own videos - that is still very useful but it will be much more difficult without HSV feedback to know what you are doing in comparison to the high level stroke. I agree with you that while stroking you can easily fool yourself about what you are doing. I do that a lot.

 

[TomT]

... learning from observation is very inefficient and often counterproductive.

Possibly, but it can also be efficient and productive, I think. Most importantly, videos are fun to watch.

But I agree that there's no substitute for good, in person coaching.

 

[maxpotapov]

I agree with you that while stroking you can easily fool yourself about what you are doing. I do that a lot.

Yes, absolutely!

As for comparing high speed videos from same POV - that's a good idea. But the problem is, positions of body parts or joint angles are usually a product of something else, not a cause. Once you start focusing on those "positions" this is where confusion begins.

Case in point: on my own videos I see that my racquet makes quite a loop on takeback. I can even hit something behind me, and butt cap is aiming at the ball in the process. But consciously I DON'T TAKE MY RACQUET BACK or point butt cap at the ball. It happens more or less automatically as I work my body while keeping racquet IN FRONT and turning my arm/hand/racquet around the ball.
In other words, from external stationary point of view my racquet goes "back", but from my own eyes and in my mind it stays mostly "in front" of my body.

 

[WildVolley]

I have a different take on this.

I think that using video is probably superior to trying to work off of feel. Using video of a pro and video of your own form allows you to work toward adopting the correct movement patterns without getting mired in mystical discussions of the proper feel.

 

[maxpotapov]

I have a different take on this.

I think that using video is probably superior to trying to work off of feel. Using video of a pro and video of your own form allows you to work toward adopting the correct movement patterns without getting mired in mystical discussions of the proper feel.

Hmm... how do I imitate someone like McEnroe then? I like his movement patterns and his results, are they "correct enough" for everyone to imitate?

 

[WildVolley]

Hmm... how do I imitate someone like McEnroe then? I like his movement patterns and his results, are they "correct enough" for everyone to imitate?

Sure. If you want to hit like McEnroe you are going to need to model his movement patterns. There's some art to this as the affectations aren't necessarily what brings the magic, but the general racket path, grip, arm position, etc, are probably important.

For example, if you model your forehand on Nadal's, you won't find it easy to hit like McEnroe.

 

[maxpotapov]

^^My point was it's hard to learn movement patterns by observing someone who could not care less about movement patterns

 

[Chas Tennis]

......................................
In other words, from external stationary point of view my racquet goes "back", but from my own eyes and in my mind it stays mostly "in front" of my body.

Forget comparing what is seen is a HS video to what you see while hitting a stroke. Here's where the HS video to HS video comparison comes in.

Is it possible to duplicate the high level stroke and still have a different HS video of your own stroke? For example, can the racket go above the head on a high level forehand takeback and go only chest high in your stroke's video? A red light and bells go off - that something is different. Maybe it's OK, an option for the forehand, or maybe it relates to a flaw in your stroke.

 

[maxpotapov]

Maybe it's OK, an option for the forehand, or maybe it relates to a flaw in your stroke.

Or maybe my hand's anatomy and grip is (slightly) different, right?

 

[OTMPut]

Form is not a fundamental. People confuse both. Often.
Stop bothering to look a certain way. Just focus on the fundamentals. Everyone is wired, connected differently. So each will have his own form.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Or maybe my hand's anatomy and grip is (slightly) different, right?

Sure, there are always more levels of detail that could be important. I like the approach of looking for the more obvious stuff first. In practice, I believe that the great majority of stroke problems are very easy to spot flaws.

The grip used is difficult to know or see in videos.

A recent thread here makes some of the common instructions for grips seem questionable.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483360

Of course, some stroke variations out there now - that might look like flaws - could be the next generation of improvements to the strokes. The stokes are changing more rapidly now than in earlier decades.

 

[maxpotapov]

I like the approach of looking for the more obvious stuff at first. In practice, I believe that the great majority of stroke problems are very easy to spot flaws.

What obvious things viewers can imitate (or fix in their technique) after simply watching matches or practice sessions of ATP pros?

 

[Chas Tennis]

What obvious things viewers can imitate (or fix in their technique) after simply watching matches or practice sessions of ATP pros?

I was discussing high speed video of tennis strokes not matches that are usually videoed at 30/25 fps and have excessive motion blur.

 

[SpeedKillz]

each to their own...

i am a fantastic visual learning and can incorporate what they are teaching into my game.

 

[maxpotapov]

I was discussing high speed video of tennis strokes not matches that are usually videoed at 30/25 fps and have excessive motion blur.

OK, what obvious things to learn from just watching high speed videos?

 

[SpeedKillz]

What obvious things viewers can imitate (or fix in their technique) after simply watching matches or practice sessions of ATP pros?

footwork. body positioning, if they using a open stance or closed stance to hit a certain ball.

 

[maxpotapov]

footwork. body positioning, if they using a open stance or closed stance to hit a certain ball.

Well, I would not call those "obvious".
Viewers pay attention mostly to what players do with the racquets to move the ball around. The idea that you have to first move your body before you can move your racquet or a ball is not so easy to learn.

 

[SpeedKillz]

Well, I would not call those "obvious".
Viewers pay attention mostly to what players do with the racquets to move the ball around. The idea that you have to first move your body before you can move your racquet or a ball is not so easy to learn.

yes and no.

a beginner will have no idea. but they will soon find out the importance of footwork.

footwork is everything in tennis. footwork translates to body positioning, which transfers to the swing of the raquet.

 

[Chas Tennis]

OK, what obvious things to learn from just watching high speed videos?

Only high speed video can clearly show you the heart of the serve - the racket's acceleration to ball impact. The racket head speed and pace of the serve depend mostly on this motion over about 20-30 milliseconds -

This is the 17 milliseconds of racket acceleration leading to 3-4 millisecond of ball impact.

This final racket head acceleration is driven by pre-stretched muscles from earlier steps of the kinetic chain. None of the earlier steps of the kinetic chain are visible in these frames.

The book, Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production, Elliott & Crespo, in Chapter 5 says that earlier important motions are

1) leg thrust
2) shoulder over shoulder cartwheel
3) forward - upper body sommersault
4) Some others.

They mention 2) shoulder over shoulder cartwheel particularly as "differentiating high speed serves from lesser speed serves".

In any case, each of these motions of the kinetic chain can probably stretch the ISR muscles. The ISR muscles only need to be stretched so far for an effective serve.

These kinetic chain motions, that are slow enough to be seen by eye - like her leg thrust, pre-stretch the ISR muscles that are used in the final racket acceleration as in the Federer serve. That racket acceleration is too fast to be seen by eye. Your friend must have had a strong racket acceleration to impact. Note that the highest racket head speed is toward the receiver so that the racket motion is not so apparent. She probably could have stretched her ISR muscles using some of the listed kinetic chain motions more than others such as leg thrust. See thread on serving from the knees with no leg thrust - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=414039

If you had a high speed video of her serving technique you might see more of one of the above motions than another. Maybe she does the shoulder over shoulder particularly effectively and that compensates for her lesser use of leg thrust. ?

These high speed video frames show some obvious things:

1) the arm is nearly straight through the motion
2) most forward motion leading immediately to impact is from this arm rotation and not other motions.
3) there is a critical angle between Federer's forearm and racket at impact. This angle is also rapidly changing.
4) Federer's wrist does not look at too stressful an angle (not too much ulnar deviation)
5) the racket goes from edge on to the ball to sting face on the ball in a time of about 20-25 milliseconds as the result of a very fast arm rotation and not an isolated racket rotation relative to the arm as many mistakenly believe.
6) Federer's shoulder-shoulder to upper arm angle is larger than in most pro serves and larger than the angle recommended in the Ellenbecker video to minimize the risk of shoulder impingement and injury. At the time of this serve, Federer had back problems that may have influenced this posture - the shoulders tilt partly from spine lateral bending. ?

These angles are very clear in a high speed video with a fast shutter speed to minimize motion blur.

Federer serve video
https://vimeo.com/63688132

High speed video can provide completely accurate information. How that information complements other things, practice, coaches, feel, I believe, is to provide accurate feedback on your strokes.

 

[maxpotapov]

^^I can definitely copy this information from high speed video because I understand internally what it means after many years of playing tennis and experimenting with my technique.

But for unprepared viewer it will make little practical sense.

You can understand and use the technique only AFTER you have experienced how it works.

 

[TomT]

^^My point was it's hard to learn movement patterns by observing someone who could not care less about movement patterns

It might be hard, but I think imitation is one of the main ways that we learn stuff. How well you learn depends on how much focused practice you put into it.

For example, back when I was a complete beginner I modeled aspects of Borg's, Connor's, and McEnroe's games, as well as some others. I ended up with a simplified synthesis of all I had watched which suited my abilities. Doing this provided a starting point for me. Something to focus on, without which I wouldn't have had a clue.

The thing that took the longest was working out the various grips for various shots. For that, I really didn't have a model, because I couldn't tell exactly how they were holding their rackets on most shots. But emulating the general essence of each of their styles did help me to improve, I think.

 

[maxpotapov]

^^In terms of inspiration - yes, imitation could be a good thing. If you then learn by doing, like you described.

But with all those videos online, there is a strong temptation to try to learn just by watching.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I agree with the OP on a lot of his points. Without knowing what you're doing, using video often will not work because you can't separate what is essential from what is not, and you can translate the pro's swing into your own. IMO, a combination of video and good coaching can be a pretty good thing.

 

[user92626]

I think the OP talks about watch pro's videos on YOutube only and not his own.

I wish I had my ipad much earlier. I corrected so much from recording and instantly watching my form afterward.

 

[TomT]

^^In terms of inspiration - yes, imitation could be a good thing. If you then learn by doing, like you described.

But with all those videos online, there is a strong temptation to try to learn just by watching.

I see what you mean. Yeah, just watching isn't going to make you a better player. It's the repitition, the work, that does that, and that's where a coach or mentor comes in handy by keeping you from repeating mistakes, and giving you an idea of what a proper, or better, way to hit is, and all that's involved in that. I do think that self-videos can help a lot, if you can be objectively critical about what you're seeing.

 

[GuyClinch]

Feel is important for tennis its not mystical at all. That doesn't mean video isn't important as well. Video will allow you to see how the pros hit - and then you can replicate it such that you develop a feel for it.

That's the idea anyway..
There is visual, feel and verbal ways to learn. Verbal in general is kind of useless.

Skiing is a good example of how important feel is though. You can learn very little via video because the muscle movements are fairly small. So you need to develop feel and muscle memory to ski well, IMHO.

Tennis is better because you can record yourself - then compare to a pro and see how different you are...Coaches use a visual approach mostly because people can see what you are doing wrong. But some of their 'adjustments' are based on feel. They are telling you want to do - but what it feels like..when you do it.

The slice serve is the easiest one to see. There is a feel to hit - the arm action of it. And players who don't get that can't seem to hit it - even if they have seen video of a correct slice serve.

 

[WildVolley]

Feel is important for tennis its not mystical at all. That doesn't mean video isn't important as well. Video will allow you to see how the pros hit - and then you can replicate it such that you develop a feel for it.

That's the idea anyway..
There is visual, feel and verbal ways to learn. Verbal in general is kind of useless.

The problem is that what "feels" correct is often terrible. A lot of players "feel" that they hit the ball like Federer, etc. Only when you show them a video do they understand how terrible their form actually is.

Of great interest to folks on this board, it also explains why so many players vastly over-rate their own abilities. If you haven't seen yourself on video, you may be in for quite a shock.

 

[West Coast Ace]

Form is not a fundamental. People confuse both. Often.
Stop bothering to look a certain way. Just focus on the fundamentals. Everyone is wired, connected differently. So each will have his own form.

Great post. Trying to mimic the strokes of pros, who got millions of dollars worth of instruction, starting at a young age when it's easy to create muscle memory, is ridiculous.

There are some basic fundamentals that should be adopted - the rest is preference.

I love laughing at our so-called instructors here who post pics/videos of pros for simple requests. Like you have to swing like (or get in this position) <insert pros name here> to get more topspin on your shots or improve your return of serve.

 

[user92626]

There are way too many posts about the fundamentals and advices to focus on them. Does anyone care to list them?

 

[Rolling]

each to their own...

i am a fantastic visual learning and can incorporate what they are teaching into my game.

I can very well see Your point and share the view to learn from videos!!!

 

[Rolling]

each to their own...

i am a fantastic visual learning and can incorporate what they are teaching into my game.

I can very well see Your point and share the view to learn from videos!!!

 

[maxpotapov]

^^More power to visual learners!

 

[OTMPut]

There are way too many posts about the fundamentals and advices to focus on them. Does anyone care to list them?

Here are the key fundamentals of any stroke:
1. contact area
2. Balance

If you are solid on these two, your stroke will be effective.
Depending on your flexibility, body type and strength it may or may not look graceful or pretty. But it will get the job done.

 

[maxpotapov]

This "trophy pose" illusion is a prime example of how videos can be misleading and how counter intuitive things can be in tennis:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=488766&page=2