You guys are your NRTP's !

[oldhacker]

Sitting here in the UK (where we have no meaningful rating system for club players) I love reading your 'what NRTP is this guy' threads.

Obviously they attract a lot of WUM's but, even ignoring them, I find it interesting how varied opinions are. And I think this could be because the NRTP tries to apply a linear scale to a logarithmic problem. At the lower levels (NRTP 1.0 to 4.0) it seems to work pretty well without too much disagreement and just from reading the definitions I am pretty confident that I am a 4.0 singles player who could probably mix it at 4.5 doubles given a half decent partner. But then it tries to bunch a whole range of abilities into a small (4.5-5.5) range. When I look at the stronger players at my club I find it impossible to categorise them within this range. I know the best guy is a 5.5 (because he is having played no 1 singles for a decent US college team). He is enough ahead of the others for me to be confident that they must have a lower rating. But from there fitting the next best 10 guys (who are enough better than me to make them at least a level up) into the 4.5-5.0 range is just impossible. The variation in playing styles and level is pretty large and you cannot split them into 2 groups - a bunch of 4.5's and a bunch of 5.0's.

So I think what you need to to take the 4.5-5.5 range and spread it out. I did see an alternative rating system somewhere which went up to 13 (I think) and gave the NRTP equivalents for each level. But it split the NRTP down to 4.75 etc. in order to do that.

 

[Moz]

There is a meaningful rating mechanism for club players assuming they play singles outside their club. The scale appears to be more wideranging in the UK 10.2 - 1.1 but I believe the US system actually rates you to within 1 or 2 decimal points in the background. It's just the buckets (4.5 or 5.0) that seem to wide and generalised.

Have you played anyone with an LTA rating? What was it? How did you do?

 

[goober]

Sitting here in the UK (where we have no meaningful rating system for club players) I love reading your 'what NRTP is this guy' threads.

Obviously they attract a lot of WUM's but, even ignoring them, I find it interesting how varied opinions are. And I think this could be because the NRTP tries to apply a linear scale to a logarithmic problem. At the lower levels (NRTP 1.0 to 4.0) it seems to work pretty well without too much disagreement and just from reading the definitions I am pretty confident that I am a 4.0 singles player who could probably mix it at 4.5 doubles given a half decent partner. But then it tries to bunch a whole range of abilities into a small (4.5-5.5) range. When I look at the stronger players at my club I find it impossible to categorise them within this range. I know the best guy is a 5.5 (because he is having played no 1 singles for a decent US college team). He is enough ahead of the others for me to be confident that they must have a lower rating. But from there fitting the next best 10 guys (who are enough better than me to make them at least a level up) into the 4.5-5.0 range is just impossible. The variation in playing styles and level is pretty large and you cannot split them into 2 groups - a bunch of 4.5's and a bunch of 5.0's.

So I think what you need to to take the 4.5-5.5 range and spread it out. I did see an alternative rating system somewhere which went up to 13 (I think) and gave the NRTP equivalents for each level. But it split the NRTP down to 4.75 etc. in order to do that.

The problem is that if you split the ratings to X.25 and X.75 levels, at your typical club, tournament and most league situations you would not have enough people to fill out all those additional categories.

 

[oldhacker]

Hi Moz - I agree there is a UK rating system for junior club players but there is nothing, and certainly nothing like NRTP, for adults (I am over 40 !) unless you are in the top 4-8 players in your club playing national league etc. There are virtually no tournaments aimed at typical adult (3.5-4.0 NRTP) players in the UK. A few clubs run Open adult tournaments but these really are not split into different levels so only the best club players enter and any typical club player would get thorughly humiliated. All there is for me are LTA County leagues which I play in (at a reasonable standard) but they are doubles only format and not rated in any way. In short there are no rated adult tournaments in the UK aimed at typical club players. In fact there are very few for stronger club players (4.5-5.0 NRTP equivalent). So much so that when my club entered a National League team for the first time all but one of our best players (several of whom had played county up to U18 and are at least 4.5 in NRTP terms) had to apply for a LTA rating as they did not already have one.

As no adults my level have LTA ratings I have not played any (if that makes sense). Our best adult players are LTA rated between 3.1 and 6.1. I played a guy rated 6.1 in a club tournament and lost 1 and 2.

There is a meaningful rating mechanism for club players assuming they play singles outside their club. The scale appears to be more wideranging in the UK 10.2 - 1.1 but I believe the US system actually rates you to within 1 or 2 decimal points in the background. It's just the buckets (4.5 or 5.0) that seem to wide and generalised.

Have you played anyone with an LTA rating? What was it? How did you do?

 

[Moz]

I do know what you mean. You may want to try a tournament though. Most tournaments have progressive draws where there are sections which are grouped by ratngs so you start off against players with the same rating and progress to draws with higher rated players.

There are also age group events at 35, 40, 45 etc... however the standard varies widely and the draws usually aren't big enough to have the progressive draws.

One thing I have found in the UK is that, unlike the USA, the vast majority of entries in a tournament seem to be 20 yrs old or less. So unless you are happy playing players a lot younger it can be demoralising.

The one thing I like about league play in the US is that most players are approximately the same standard. In the UK, even within one division, you get the whole range of players which can make many matches a waste of time.

Sorry if I'm getting off topic here...!

 

[oldhacker]

Hi Moz - there really are no suitable adult tournements in my area and I, while I love my tennis, I am not going to travel to seek them out.

I know what you mean about county leagues in the UK - the standard can be all over the place at least until you get to the top divisions but then you are talking a very high level in many counties with the top coaches (many former pro-players from other countries or the UK) representing the big clubs. The problem is that the divisions are based on prior performance of the club team rather than ratings of the individual players. Also it is doubles only which is a shame. I think the US system of rating individual club players who play in inter-club leagues is much better and improves competition and evens out the level of play.

I do know what you mean. You may want to try a tournament though. Most tournaments have progressive draws where there are sections which are grouped by ratngs so you start off against players with the same rating and progress to draws with higher rated players.

There are also age group events at 35, 40, 45 etc... however the standard varies widely and the draws usually aren't big enough to have the progressive draws.

One thing I have found in the UK is that, unlike the USA, the vast majority of entries in a tournament seem to be 20 yrs old or less. So unless you are happy playing players a lot younger it can be demoralising.

The one thing I like about league play in the US is that most players are approximately the same standard. In the UK, even within one division, you get the whole range of players which can make many matches a waste of time.

Sorry if I'm getting off topic here...!

 

[vinouspleasure]

>> and just from reading the definitions I am pretty confident that I am a 4.0 singles player who could probably mix it at 4.5 doubles given a half decent partner.

Unfortunately the written description of the nrtp levels bear no relationship to the numerical levels. Based on your assessment against the descriptions, I am pretty confident that your actual rating would fall between a 3.0-3.5.

 

[oldhacker]

Hi vinouspleasure - if I am really a 3.0 to 3.5 then the NRTP system is even more flawed than I thought. My club has about 300 adult male members and I am in the top 15 (ie top 5%) of them - the top guys being 5.0 and 5.5 national league players. But I do think you are wrong in your assertion. I have a table of NRTP ratings which does not just describe playing standards but also level of play and most of the guys I play doubles with (and more than hold my own) are ex-county players now in there 40's and 50's who I am very confident are still at least 4.0 and probably 4.5 in mnay cases.

>> and just from reading the definitions I am pretty confident that I am a 4.0 singles player who could probably mix it at 4.5 doubles given a half decent partner.

Unfortunately the written description of the nrtp levels bear no relationship to the numerical levels. Based on your assessment against the descriptions, I am pretty confident that your actual rating would fall between a 3.0-3.5.

 

[seb85]

I do know what you mean. You may want to try a tournament though. Most tournaments have progressive draws where there are sections which are grouped by ratngs so you start off against players with the same rating and progress to draws with higher rated players.

In the UK the rating system isn't dynamic enough. I don't know how it works in the US but here, for adults, all ratings up to and including 5.1 are permanent ie you cant go down. Additionally the LTA are very reluctant to give you a high rating if you are applying for the first time. I had this problem recently- last summer i wanted to play some tournaments for the first time in 8 years so I had to apply for a rating. Despite my playing for my university first team i was given a rating of 9.2 (which is almost as low as you can get). As a result i usually end up in a very low rated section- not so much a problem for me since i can play through it but not really very fair on those who wanted to enter a lower standard section.

 

[Moz]

In the UK the rating system isn't dynamic enough. I don't know how it works in the US but here, for adults, all ratings up to and including 5.1 are permanent ie you cant go down. Additionally the LTA are very reluctant to give you a high rating if you are applying for the first time. I had this problem recently- last summer i wanted to play some tournaments for the first time in 8 years so I had to apply for a rating. Despite my playing for my university first team i was given a rating of 9.2 (which is almost as low as you can get). As a result i usually end up in a very low rated section- not so much a problem for me since i can play through it but not really very fair on those who wanted to enter a lower standard section.

Yes, cant argue with that Seb. To make newcomers ratings artificially low seems a contrary strategy to keeping 5.1's and lower artificially high if they continuously lose. It is bizarre and ridiculous. In short it's LTA.

I don't know if it still applies but when I rejoined in 2003 I had a PCA coach recommend me at a rating, which you used to be able to do up to a 5.2.

 

[seb85]

Yes, cant argue with that Seb. To make newcomers ratings artificially low seems a contrary strategy to keeping 5.1's and lower artificially high if they continuously lose. It is bizarre and ridiculous. In short it's LTA.

I don't know if it still applies but when I rejoined in 2003 I had a PCA coach recommend me at a rating, which you used to be able to do up to a 5.2.

yeah I heard about this. But in my case it didn't seem to make any difference- I had my coach reccomend a rating for me but they didn't take any notice and he's ex CPO for Devon.

Still ive had wins this season over a lot of 7s, 6s and even some 5s so i can ring them up with some proof now!

BTW i was reading your blog and im have so much admiration! There's nothing id like more than to take tennis as far as i could but i just don't have the guts. I'll be graduating uni this year so it would be a good opportunity, its just that i already have a job lined up and it seems like a lot to give up! If you don't mind me asking does playing tennis cover your living expenses? or do you have some money saved up from working?

 

[Moz]

Still ive had wins this season over a lot of 7s, 6s and even some 5s so i can ring them up with some proof now!

BTW i was reading your blog and im have so much admiration! There's nothing id like more than to take tennis as far as i could but i just don't have the guts. I'll be graduating uni this year so it would be a good opportunity, its just that i already have a job lined up and it seems like a lot to give up! If you don't mind me asking does playing tennis cover your living expenses? or do you have some money saved up from working?

Well done - you will hopefully get a big ratings bump in March. Keep us posted.

Thanks for reading! I wouldn't have done it when I was graduating either - you're better off going with the job. If you do both for a few years then do it. FYI - it's much easier to manage / justify the time off if you plan ahead financially while you're working.

To give you an idea I won a tournament in December. I won a 3 inch high trophy and no prize money. Entry fee was about £20, I broke 2 sets of strings and in total had to drive 660 miles in total that week - which is about £160 petrol. I won't win any prize money, I'm well short of the standard required:evil:.

 

[seb85]

To give you an idea I won a tournament in December. I won a 3 inch high trophy and no prize money. Entry fee was about £20, I broke 2 sets of strings and in total had to drive 660 miles in total that week - which is about £160 petrol. I won't win any prize money, I'm well short of the standard required:evil:.

I see the point! I was thinking along the same lines myself really- keep the matches and practice ticking over for the next few years and if/when i can afford it, go for it as an over 35. I'm not in a position to do anything financially at the moment (obviously wtih student debt!) and no accademy wants to sponsor a 22 year old who dosn't have a world ranking already.

Good luck- Ill continue to read your blog. If you ever need a hitting partner in London look me up

Seb

 

[Moz]

OK, will do. Where in London are you?

Also, if you need some LTA matches to get your ranking up try the Matchplays link at www.tournaments.org.uk. It only takes an evening and it's only one trip but you usually get 2 qualifying matches.

 

[vinouspleasure]

Hi vinouspleasure - if I am really a 3.0 to 3.5 then the NRTP system is even more flawed than I thought. .

well, there's no use debating your level. Just for reference, in our club we have one of the top over-40 players on the east coast and he is rated 4.0, most teaching pros in my area are 4.0s and we have some ex-university players at 3.5

the nrtp system works pretty well since a computer handles the bulk of the ratings. There are regional differences and there are always the losers that game the system, but I think it works pretty well for > %95 of the population. It just doesn't match up well with the descriptions.

 

[oldhacker]

Hi Moz - I just noticed and read your blog. Great stuff and makes me fell a whole load better about my own mid life crisis tennis adventure. I am a sort of poor man's version of you. Not as good at tennis and only semi retired in order to get as good as I can at the damned game. What level did you play at when you were younger? You did well in that National Over 35's. The guy who beat you 3 and 4 got to the final and it was won by Chris Wilkinson who used to be one hell of a player.

Love you quote about trying to get some decent coaching:

"My frustration with British tennis also continues. I contacted a couple of coaches from the local high performance centre. The first just wasn't interested (fair enough) but the coward couldn't bring himself to admit it while the other just took the high road and never bothered returning my call. Thanks a lot **** head. This, in addition to the Sutton Tennis Academy who couldn't be arsed to return my call. Next time I'll lie about my age and standard, turn up in a school uniform and hit winners during the warm-up."

I have been through exactly the same thing and had exactly the same experience. My advice is to keep pestering (constant e-mails and phone calls until they take notice) the Head Coach at your nearest LTA Academy / HPC to try to get a good coach to give you some private lessons. I know it seems downright humiliating to have to beg someone to let you pay them £30 an hour to teach you but I found it to be the only way. Then once you have finally had a lesson with a good coach it is relatively easy to keep rebooking.

At your level you could also go for your county Over 35's team (they have an annual inter-county competition at Eastbourne) as they will probably have regular practice and coaching sessions in your area.

Good luck.

 

[Moz]

Hi Moz - I just noticed and read your blog. Great stuff and makes me fell a whole load better about my own mid life crisis tennis adventure. I am a sort of poor man's version of you. Not as good at tennis and only semi retired in order to get as good as I can at the damned game. What level did you play at when you were younger? You did well in that National Over 35's. The guy who beat you 3 and 4 got to the final and it was won by Chris Wilkinson who used to be one hell of a player.

Love you quote about trying to get some decent coaching:

"My frustration with British tennis also continues. I contacted a couple of coaches from the local high performance centre. The first just wasn't interested (fair enough) but the coward couldn't bring himself to admit it while the other just took the high road and never bothered returning my call. Thanks a lot **** head. This, in addition to the Sutton Tennis Academy who couldn't be arsed to return my call. Next time I'll lie about my age and standard, turn up in a school uniform and hit winners during the warm-up."

I have been through exactly the same thing and had exactly the same experience. My advice is to keep pestering (constant e-mails and phone calls until they take notice) the Head Coach at your nearest LTA Academy / HPC to try to get a good coach to give you some private lessons. I know it seems downright humiliating to have to beg someone to let you pay them £30 an hour to teach you but I found it to be the only way. Then once you have finally had a lesson with a good coach it is relatively easy to keep rebooking.

At your level you could also go for your county Over 35's team (they have an annual inter-county competition at Eastbourne) as they will probably have regular practice and coaching sessions in your area.

Good luck.

There are more of us out there mate:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=177107

Delighted to hear about your crisis! I had a late start and very little coaching but clawed my way up into the county team as a junior - although I had an unlucky birthday so couldn't play as an 18yo.

I was pleased to see my opponent make the final in the o35's!

The coaching thing has got my really wound up. The decent coaches who played at a good standard just aren't interested if you're my age. I have too much pride to go begging. It's a weird situation. I suspect it's because the LTA are throwing so much money around. I've had 2 more tennis centres ignore my phone calls.

I will try and get into the county team. It's closed shop though - no trials, coaching or anything. Seems like jobs for the boys to me. I am going to have to force my way in by fair means or foul.

 

[seb85]

OK, will do. Where in London are you?

Also, if you need some LTA matches to get your ranking up try the Matchplays link at www.tournaments.org.uk. It only takes an evening and it's only one trip but you usually get 2 qualifying matches.

THanks for the link- ill have to check some of those events out.

Im in SW london- near to clapham junction station

 

[Ash_Smith]

Moz

Should you ever find yourself in the vicinity of David Lloyd Swindon please feel free to drop in for a lesson, I would be only too happy to help you out in your quest.

Regards

Ash

 

[JRstriker12]

There are more of us out there mate:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=177107

Delighted to hear about your crisis! I had a late start and very little coaching but clawed my way up into the county team as a junior - although I had an unlucky birthday so couldn't play as an 18yo.

I was pleased to see my opponent make the final in the o35's!

The coaching thing has got my really wound up. The decent coaches who played at a good standard just aren't interested if you're my age. I have too much pride to go begging. It's a weird situation. I suspect it's because the LTA are throwing so much money around. I've had 2 more tennis centres ignore my phone calls.

I will try and get into the county team. It's closed shop though - no trials, coaching or anything. Seems like jobs for the boys to me. I am going to have to force my way in by fair means or foul.

Moz,

Sounds like after you finish your tennis mission, you should open up a coaching center for adults. There's got to be others out there that are running into the same situation.

JR

 

[Moz]

Moz

Should you ever find yourself in the vicinity of David Lloyd Swindon please feel free to drop in for a lesson, I would be only too happy to help you out in your quest.

Regards

Ash

Hi Ash

Thanks very much for the offer. I have a friend in Wokingham so that could be a possibility.

Moz

 

[Moz]

Moz,

Sounds like after you finish your tennis mission, you should open up a coaching center for adults. There's got to be others out there that are running into the same situation.

JR

That's certainly an interesting idea.

 

[Ash_Smith]

No worries mate.