Tell me about this swing

WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
sureshs said:
Notice how the left hand does not fully follow the right on the forehand but dangles a little. A junior at my club hits this way too.

Is it a valid style?

Would the experts here consider it an ATP or WTA style forehand?
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He doesn't have the behind the body takeback of the WTA-style, but he's not doing a standard ATP-style either.

His forehand looks different because he doesn't do a unit turn with the off hand on the throat of the racket. He pretty much has a straight takeback without much in the way of ptd. Odd looking, but fairly effective I'd guess. I doubt any pros are going to start teaching this style any time soon.
 
D

DefensiveTennis

Guest
Its not ideal but the kid just won the Orange Bowl so he is doing something right.

Apparently his movement is amazing, looks like a very athletic strong young kid. Does he have the technique on all his strokes to allow him to compete at the next level in 4 or 5 years? Time will tell.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I am wondering if this style actually removes encumbrance from the left hand and results in a more free-swinging stroke?
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
sureshs said:
I am wondering if this style actually removes encumbrance from the left hand and results in a more free-swinging stroke?
Click to expand...

What encumbrance are we talking about?

The guy's stroke looks like a combination of McEnroe and DelPotro's, or something like that.
 
Ash_Smith

Ash_Smith

Legend
Saw Tiafoe at Les Petit As last year and spoke with his coach about his forehand. They are not concerned about it at all and he seems to time the ball beautifully, so I am with them. The important elements of the swing are all there.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
WildVolley said:
What encumbrance are we talking about?

The guy's stroke looks like a combination of McEnroe and DelPotro's, or something like that.
Click to expand...

I was trying to ask if the usual unit turn with left hand on throat as long as possible has some problem which this guy has overcome by using a different style?
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Ash_Smith said:
Saw Tiafoe at Les Petit As last year and spoke with his coach about his forehand. They are not concerned about it at all and he seems to time the ball beautifully, so I am with them. The important elements of the swing are all there.
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Is it technically right or wrong as per the thinking today?
 
Ash_Smith

Ash_Smith

Legend
If it is safe and effective then it is technically correct. Safe in the sense that biomechanically it won't lead to injury and effective in he sense that it allows maximum output with as little input as possible.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Ash_Smith said:
If it is safe and effective then it is technically correct. Safe in the sense that biomechanically it won't lead to injury and effective in he sense that it allows maximum output with as little input as possible.
Click to expand...

Then what is the downside? That if the input is increased, the output won't be as good as the more conventional style?

Can this style work with closed or neutral stances?
 
D

DefensiveTennis

Guest
sureshs said:
What does that mean? That this style is becoming more common now?
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Sorry, I meant that apparently it was more unique when the video you posted was taken. It doesnt look so weird now or so I have heard. They changed his forehand a little since your video was taken.
 
Ash_Smith

Ash_Smith

Legend
sureshs said:
Then what is the downside? That if the input is increased, the output won't be as good as the more conventional style?

Can this style work with closed or neutral stances?
Click to expand...

Yes, that style could work with neutral or closed stances, it isn't all that different from the "conventional". There isn't necessarily a downside, if it works for him and continues to be effective as he develops through the ranks, and I see no real reason why it wouldn't. The only thing he might struggle with as he players stronger players is stabilising the racquet on the run as he moves wide with only the one hand on the racquet, but even this shouldn't be an issue really.
 
D

DefensiveTennis

Guest
Ash_Smith said:
Yes, that style could work with neutral or closed stances, it isn't all that different from the "conventional". There isn't necessarily a downside, if it works for him and continues to be effective as he develops through the ranks, and I see no real reason why it wouldn't. The only thing he might struggle with as he players stronger players is stabilising the racquet on the run as he moves wide with only the one hand on the racquet, but even this shouldn't be an issue really.
Click to expand...

Or that preparing with the racquet arm extended and not supported with the other arm is more tiring than having another hand on the throat to support the racquet.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
If he keeps winning as he gets into the pros (if he goes pro) then that will be the test. Right now it works obviously.
 
H

hawk eye

Hall of Fame
Who knows, maybe in ten years time all players hit like this and 'millenium forehands' are all done and dusted.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
It can be faster prep than trying to get both hands on racket if you think about it. Just stick your arm back. And then do the last part of the millenium fh. The stretch and release. No unit turn even really needed.
Just back and snap. Kid could be on to something.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
the usual modern FH takeback consists of 3 parts:

1.unit turn with racket pointing up and both hands on racket (some will lift the hand a little more after release)

2. drop the racket down in a "reverse C" motion to the PTD position (keep wrist neutral and racket outside) till the racket is about the height of the ball and a little above horizontal. most of that move is by elbow extension

see tolys great graphic
jsdsgj.jpg


bf13lv.jpg
[/QUOTE]

3. getting into the "slot" by opening the lower body while supinating/layin back hand.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
that black guy in the video has the racket face neutral at the backswing and also almost horizontal. he doesn't lift his racket and also doesn't do the "reverse C" to the PTD position.

however you can see that at the very end before getting into the slot he is reaching the PTD position:

racket outside, facing the ground, wrist neutral. I would certainly not teach his backswing (straight back, no hand on during turn) but the most important thing is reaching that late slot to fully use the SSC.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
WildVolley said:
The forehand looks different, though he hardly hits any in the new video. He definitely has more of a unit turn and more of a PTD in the new video.

Also, I don't think much of his serve in this video, but obviously he can play.
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Yes, in the first one it was just a one hand, straight tk back and later it shows a little loop. Main advantage to the stalking 2hand tk back imo are the aid in supporting shoulder turn and the tactile feedback for the racket face. He uses the left arm well after the tk back and hits so often that he may not need the tactile feedback...only downside is imo the 1hand tkback is slower, especially if he gets more loop into it with time.

As to his earlier straight tk back... that is even good for 1st serve rtns and doubles, so not only should it be fine for groundstrokes...but he likely is excellent at serve rtns and dubs, with little or no downside for rally shots. The loop is mainly for timing and getting in the slot...both of which he is fine with. My concern is that as he loop likely will grow some, then his 1 hand tkback could be more of an issue...there is interplay on these issues imo. I also think bigger servers will challenge his 1 hand tkback.

In summary, I don't care for the 1 hand tkback, but don't mind the straight tkback really, even though that is what he seems to be changing. Imo he should focus on going to the 2 hand tkback.
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
5263 said:
As to his earlier straight tk back... that is even good for 1st serve rtns and doubles, so not only should it be fine for groundstrokes...but he likely is excellent at serve rtns and dubs, with little or no downside for rally shots. The loop is mainly for timing and getting in the slot...both of which he is fine with. My concern is that as he loop likely will grow some, then his 1 hand takeback could be more of an issue...there is interplay on these issues imo. I also think bigger servers will challenge his 1 hand tkback.

In summary, I don't care for the 1 hand tkback, but don't mind the straight tkback really, even though that is what he seems to be changing. Imo he should focus on going to the 2 hand tkback.
Click to expand...

I was going to say that his fh in the first video looks sort of like a serve return. His original forehand also reminded me of Stepanek's fh, but I'm fairly certain that Stepanek has a loop of some sort.

Interesting to hear your take on it. Obviously he's playing excellently at the moment. He's still too young to know if he'll have a future on tour, but having excellent movement counts for a lot.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
WildVolley said:
I was going to say that his fh in the first video looks sort of like a serve return. His original forehand also reminded me of Stepanek's fh, but I'm fairly certain that Stepanek has a loop of some sort.

Interesting to hear your take on it. Obviously he's playing excellently at the moment. He's still too young to know if he'll have a future on tour, but having excellent movement counts for a lot.
Click to expand...

This kid is special to be sure, but as you say, time will tell how special. Back when my 1st son was playing with his big serve, he would always target any onehander Bh or one hand Fh tkback. Didn't have to go for corners on these guys, as he could just serve thru it. There were Bh 2handers that forced him wider and/or to go at the Fh. He could even serve thru many Fhs with a 2 handed tk back, but that was tougher.
 
D

DefensiveTennis

Guest
Nick Saviano says this kid is future top 10 pro player. :???:
 
1

10nisne1

New User
To me, what's making his ground strokes weird in the 1st video is that he never uses his left hand to support the racket either on the handle or on the throat in his ready/neutral position. Only time he has both hands already on the racket is when he is getting ready to return a serve.

Biggest difference between his ground strokes in the 1st and the 2nd video isn't his straight take back or his take back being loopier, but the fact that now he puts his left hand on the racket for support after hitting a ground stroke, both after a FH and a BH.

His take back being loopier in the 2nd video could be a result of both his hands are now supporting the racket which is naturally creating a more acute angle in the way he is holding the racket (by the throat) in the ready/neutral position. Still doesn't look all that natural to me. Especially for me considering when I used to hit with a 2HBH, my left hand was on the handle (I'm a righty). My left hand would slide towards the throat of the racket as I made my turn to hit a FH. He has his left hand on the throat and slides it down to get ready to hit a 2HBH. I think Nadal does this as well so it might not be uncommon.

Thanks for the videos. Very interesting.

10
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Is there some sub-conscious feedback going on here? If someone had posted a video of any other junior hitting that forehand, I suspect posters would have found fundamental flaws with it. Once they know he is an Easter Bowl winner, is the analysis different? Are you telling me that no unit turn and no PTR is acceptable? (PTR = Pat The Rhino, I usually don't see dogs of the height of the patting in most forehands).
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
sureshs said:
Is there some sub-conscious feedback going on here? If someone had posted a video of any other junior hitting that forehand, I suspect posters would have found fundamental flaws with it. Once they know he is an Easter Bowl winner, is the analysis different? Are you telling me that no unit turn and no PTR is acceptable? (PTR = Pat The Rhino, I usually don't see dogs of the height of the patting in most forehands).
Click to expand...

There's always adjustments made for playing level, though recall some posters in the past have rated 7.0s as 4.5s based on video.:twisted: I recall someone dissing Kuerten's hitting. I don't think they knew they were critiquing a former world #1.

I grew up with Great Danes so it is definitely pat-the-dog for me. The end of the pat is normally not rhino height in the air. The initial lift is often a little high for PTD, but whatever.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
arche3 said:
I can be don't you guys think? Doesnt have to worry about getting his left hand on it ever.
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I don't think so, as the left hand helps to get the racket length back, oppose to doing it with one hand at the end of the lever. Left hand helps get the racket moving in a very "in the slot" fashion, whereas one hand tkback can waffle around pretty good.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
Is there some sub-conscious feedback going on here? If someone had posted a video of any other junior hitting that forehand, I suspect posters would have found fundamental flaws with it. Once they know he is an Easter Bowl winner, is the analysis different? Are you telling me that no unit turn and no PTR is acceptable? (PTR = Pat The Rhino, I usually don't see dogs of the height of the patting in most forehands).
Click to expand...

To some extent sure, but some of us noted how that 1hand tkback was not seen as the best way. I also noted how the straight tkback could help in many situations. We could all see how well he hit the ball at his level though, so hard to fault success.
 
P

Postpre

Rookie
I don't think this kind of forehand can last at the pro level. I see it as a huge liability that needs to be changed ASAP. At the pro level, it will not provide enough stability, accuracy, or power, nor will it allow for minute split second adjustments that are often required. The off arm stretched out (usually parallel to the baseline) provides the stability that is absolutely necessary to compete in today's men's game. The whole body working together (in the coiling and uncoiling phases of the forehand) is a necessary component of the modern forehand.

Natural athleticism can only take someone so far....
 
mightyrick

mightyrick

Legend
5263 said:
To some extent sure, but some of us noted how that 1hand tkback was not seen as the best way. I also noted how the straight tkback could help in many situations. We could all see how well he hit the ball at his level though, so hard to fault success.
Click to expand...

Definitely hard to fault success.

When I saw the video, all I saw was an old-school takeback. He just lets his arm drop and takes the racquet straight back. I dunno, as long as the kid gets his racquet in the slot... I guess it can work.

It really isn't any different than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19gmJilFKlI&t=18s
 
C

chip and charge

New User
He is different than Mac in that he gets the forearm to wind up (wrist layback) at the start of the forward swing. It's almost a smile pattern tack back. Very interesting that a junior with this much potential and talent would use this type of forehand. But to me, even though it is classical in some senses, it is a great forehand and much more developed and ready for the pro game than either his backhand or his serve. His movement is very fluid and quick; he displayed touch with his hands. He will continue to refine his strokes. This is a special player.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Wait.
JonnyBlaze hits that forehand, but higher over the net and softer.
Blaze plays on the Futures tour.
 
Power Player

Power Player

Bionic Poster
I wanted to add to this. Yes, this is a valid forehand obviously.

A great way to apply it is to use it on your approaches. when I am running towards a short ball I already am in the infamous PTD position like this guy. It has resulted in a noticeable improvement in consistent put away shots.

I also think the modern tennis game is just as much about the shortened take back as anything else. So you will see more players doing unorthodox things like this player, and yet still hitting big shots. Power = timing, and the shorter your take back, the easier it is to hit with consistent timing.

As for the dangling off hand, not sure if that is optimal. I know it would not work for me, but his balance is excellent and he has high athleticism.
 
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