kragster
Hall of Fame
You have learned well young padawan. I have nothing left to teach you. May the force be with you.
You have learned well young padawan. I have nothing left to teach you. May the force be with you.
Juan Ma Del Pony
Professional
Haha I will miss talking to sensible fans like Towser, and that Roger Federer fan from Philly that I was speaking with yesterday (sorry, forgot his username, but he was a nice sensible guy) but they can always find me at Match Results section from now on.
EDIT: FlashFlare! How could I forget FlashFlare?! Sorry buddy...will miss you, but for the sake of my sanity, I will be avoiding such threads in this section for a while now...!!
Last edited:
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
I certainly agree with this.
Sampras played a different style of game. Federer plays a baseline oriented game, and has dominated Wimbledon with a baseline oriented game. Thus, he has a better grass baseline game because he has won MORE Wimbledon slams playing a baseline game than Nadal has. It's that simple.
And you and me both know to even fathom that Nalbandian and Rios are better than Nadal on HCs would be hilarious. Nalbandian may have the potential, but he obviously never showed it.
Federer's serve only sets up points like Nadal the majority of the time. It is not a point ender for the vast majority of the time.
FlashFlare11
Hall of Fame
Could it be? The Flame Alchemist?
Hahahaha yeah, I respect Pete a lot and as much as I like Roger, I can't consider him greater than Sampras on grass yet.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
I don't blame you really, I'll be in the match discussion also especially when Dubai and the first masters start. But hopefully there will be some great Delpo performances to discuss soon in the Marseille Open threads
Juan Ma Del Pony
Professional
I don't blame you really, I'll be in the match discussion also especially when Dubai and the first masters start. But hopefully there will be some great Delpo performances to discuss soon in the Marseille Open threads
Come join me! I'm mostly talking to myself right now during the Delpo-Denko match haha
FlashFlare11
Hall of Fame
Hahahahaha it's totally understandable. Yeah, the "****s" and trolls can drive a sane person up a wall. Have fun in your new home and I'm sure we'll come across each other again soon enough!
Crazy man
Banned
Neither was Roddick. In fact, Wimbledon 2004 Roddick made a lot of in-roads into the Federer serve and had 14 break points. Sadly, Wimbledon 2004 was a different toilet, same ****; Roddick choked and Federer won. 2009 was the only match where your premise hold ups; Federer got into Roddick's serve than vice-versa although Roddick broke serve more (2 to 1). Really in these matches there was nothing really much to chose from each other.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
If you haven't seen and intend to watch Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, then do not read ahead...
''I seared the wound closed. I came close to passing out from the pain.''
Words cannot describe!
FlashFlare11
Hall of Fame
Mustang himself is too epic to describe!
I've watched the entirety of the masterpiece known as FMA Brotherhood! There aren't too many series I'd put above it!
Biscuitmcgriddleson
Professional
I believe Henman as well as many others had commented on Wimbledon slowing down prior to Rafa ever set foot on the courts. You might remember the historic 2002 Wimbledon final. Not historic due to play, but the fact that two baseliners were in the final and marked a shift towards homologation of the surfaces across the board.
Biscuitmcgriddleson
Professional
You mean that 2003 final he dominated playing serve and volley tennis?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEysBocPWOE
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Your username never fails to make me think about McDonalds.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Henman said that in 2002, and the courts at Wimbledon were changed in September 2001 to 100% Rye courts, whereas they had previously been 70% Rye and 30% Creeping Red Fescue.
keithfival
Professional
As a huge Nadal fan, I would say Djokovic's peak ground game is much, much better. Better BH, more versatile, hits deeper, flatter, earlier, moves better, literally everything but some aspects of rafa's FH.
The reason Rafa was so dominant those couple years was not that his ground game was so nearly flawless like Nole's is now, it's that in addition to his great defense and mental strength he was making an absolutely unreal percentage of point-ending shots -- whether they were put-aways, forehand winners, volleys or ridiculous scrambling passing shots. The dude was automatic for about 2 years there. He is not making all those shots these days.
The reason Rafa was so dominant those couple years was not that his ground game was so nearly flawless like Nole's is now, it's that in addition to his great defense and mental strength he was making an absolutely unreal percentage of point-ending shots -- whether they were put-aways, forehand winners, volleys or ridiculous scrambling passing shots. The dude was automatic for about 2 years there. He is not making all those shots these days.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Perfect post and I agree totally.
Biscuitmcgriddleson
Professional
Agreed, but wouldn't you agree the courts have slowed down more even since 02?
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Yes, I am aware. But the change of surface speed wasn't such a problem to most until Nadal started making finals, that's the thing. Remember how people said he'd never win anything outside of clay?
Crisstti
Legend
They were saying here he would lose to the first decent grass court player, lol. (Maybe I will look for that thread tomorrow.)
Of course, when they saw that wasn't nearly the case, then grass was just "green clay".
Biscuitmcgriddleson
Professional
Yep, the forum is full of ****/trolls. However, no one can deny that the new grass had greatly helped Nadal given his past history of sub-par results on both fast and low bouncing courts. I mean unless you feel that Nadal would come in and use his awesome volleys which are the best ever(percentages don't lie).
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Not denying that new grass has helped Nadal. However, he isn't the only one. Anyone whose game relies on defence heavily (i.e. Nadal, Djokovic and Murray, possibly Federer to a limited extent) benefits.
However, I should think Rafa benefits more from the fact that the new grass is more spin-friendly, rather than being slow. WTF is slow but low-bouncing and he's never beaten Fed there.
schizo fedfans were livid because fed never dominated on high bounce courts and couldn't beat guys like canas in indian wells and miami, despite fed's easy paths to the finals of those tournaments. they claimed he went into a steep decline in 2007 because djoker and nadal actually knew how to play tennis.
if fed was suffering so badly with unforced errors, he wouldn't have stolen 8 slams in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010.
if fed was suffering so badly with unforced errors, he wouldn't have stolen 8 slams in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010.
Biscuitmcgriddleson
Professional
Totally agree that the new grass being more spin friendly is the main aid to nadal. I just feel low bounce/fast is sort of a perfect storm for Nadal just like slow/spin friendly/heavy balls is Federer's.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
At Wimbledon? Not the surface in itself. If it's slower, it's due to the weather and/or changes of tennis racquet and string technology. The weather has changed Wimbledon's surface in the past and the strings have changed. For example, 1987 and 1993 saw a much higher bouncing Wimbledon than normal due to the hot weather. At the 1996 French Open, 3 serve and volleyers got to the semi finals due to the hot weather that baked out the clay.
Since September 2001, we've seen the Wimbledon courts change from 70% Rye and 30% Creeping Red Fescue into 100% Rye, which is why 2002 Wimbledon was so odd and everyone knew something strange was going on. Also since then, there's been a fazing out of carpet courts until they disappeared altogether after the end of 2006. And also, Rebound Ace has been replaced with Plexicushion at the Australian Open as of 2008, and I think Plexicushion is lower bouncing and faster than Rebound Ace.
There's a myth that back in the 1990s, players serve and volleyed all the time, but that's false. A minority of players did that at Wimbledon (old grass) and on indoor carpet courts, which no longer exist on tour. On other surfaces, the serve and volleyers also stayed back and rallied regularly.
Last edited:
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
LOOOOOOOOOOOL WUT? A half-blind person can see how slow the play has been on these courts ( and they're definitely higher bouncing). I think you should stop this nonsense just to talk your boy up.
Last edited:
Mustard
Bionic Poster
They are certainly not higher bouncing than Rebound Ace. It was a slow, sticky, high bouncing court.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
Everyone knows you're pretty much trying to talk Nadal up. Thanks for playing.
BTW- I agree with you. Plexicushion is damn fast. How else could it have produced all those lovely 30-shot rallies and six hours of grunting and defending between Nadovic or Dojo-Andy?
Last edited:
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It's nothing to do with Nadal.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
Sure, sure. We believe you....... :lol:
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Do those guys ever play different styles of matches these days? Nadal and Djokovic have had loads of grindfests, and Murray and Djokovic have had a few themselves. BTW, I said Plexicushion was faster than Rebound Ace, not that it was "damn fast", because it isn't.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
"those guys" played grinder styles on Rebound Ace as well. didn't see them having much success on it. Since 2008, with the exception of 2010 AO has pretty much every year seen defensive grinders winning the tournament.
M
monfed
Guest
Agree except Grass is 60-40 to Novak imo.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Lmfao at this nonsense. Did u watch tennis before 2011?
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Is this for real. I mean, have you really attempted to think about this properly, in a logical and reasoned way which doesn't hint at asinine ignorance? Genuine question, let me know.
Evan77
Banned
yeah, I've been watching tennis since '80s, thank you. you tell me how is Nadal being better on grass than Novak at the moment... ???
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
The conditions at the AO are clearly slower and are lower bouncing than they used to be when they played on Rebound Ace, to my eyes. The grittiness of the court and the balls they use are a big part of this as is the general technology. The surface is much less explosive than it used to be and now plays very *heavily*.
These matters are never black and white, as some like to infer or just outright state.
These matters are never black and white, as some like to infer or just outright state.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
So you are changing the angle of your post by now adding the 'at the moment' proviso. That wasn't originally part of the argument, was it?
Evan77
Banned
k, you tell me how Nadal is better on grass right now...did you watch the W final? who won? oh I think it was Djokovic. pls remind me, maybe I forgot, lol...
vernonbc
Legend
Come back and talk when Djokovic has made five finals and won twice. Then maybe....maybe.... you can say that he's better than Rafa on grass.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
The question of the thread is clear. you only qualified that you are talking about right now after your initial posting. You've attached a proviso in retrospect which is unrelated unless you are indirectly stating that Nadal's peak was indeed Wimbledon 2011 or 2011 in general. Your initial argument relies on a specific match-up and your opinions seem to be only derived from that. The premise of the thread is to determine which of these two players has the bast baseline game at their *peaks*.
Even if it was only for who is better *now*, your argument for clay would still appear weak, because even though Nole beat Nadal in two finals, he couldn't get past Federer at Roland Garros. Therefore it isn't conclusive who is better from the baseline on clay because such judgments cannot only just be formed on the basis of one single match-up, but should also be derived on the basis of results against the field.
Evan77
Banned
it doesn't really matter. why is my argument weak? Novak won 2 big tournaments. yeah, he lost to Fed at RG, but he is still the best player in the world. you can't win everything. we are talking about 3 best players that have ever played tennis...
FlashFlare11
Hall of Fame
The argument "right now" isn't really useful when talking about results on grass. Nadal and Djokovic on played on grass once in 2011, so to say Djokovic is better than Rafa on grass is a stretch because Nadal has a better record on grass' biggest stage. That's like Nadal is a better grass or even hard court player based on the most recent results. That alone illustrates what an absurd argument this is. As of right now, I cannot say Djokovic is a better grass-court player than Nadal based on one final (which, by the way, is only the first Wimbledon final Djokovic ever made. All credit to him for winning it though).
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Because it's poorly justified. Note: I am complaining about your method of argumentation, not the final conclusion of your opinion. It's a weak argument to say x is better than y because x beat y in their head to head meetings. x MAY BE better than y, or may not be, but it needs to be backed up by more than this weak argumentation.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Every now and again, I feel compelled to bump a terribly made thread due to its relevance in light of new historical events. Does this make me a bad person? Discuss.
NatF
Bionic Poster
You're a terrible person; to answer the OP though.
Novak is better on hard, Nadal on grass and clay. That's mainly to do with movement though. Nadal's forehand is the greatest claycourt weapon ever. But on other surfaces Djokovic's combined forehand and backhand are better. His movement just isn't good enough on grass though.
Novak is better on hard, Nadal on grass and clay. That's mainly to do with movement though. Nadal's forehand is the greatest claycourt weapon ever. But on other surfaces Djokovic's combined forehand and backhand are better. His movement just isn't good enough on grass though.
NEW_BORN
Hall of Fame
Djokovic's peak ground game has no weakness as far as i can see.
Nadal's peak ground game has an issue with his backhand, even though he compensates by hitting forehands 80% of the time.
Overall, i'd favor Nadal slightly because at his peak i feel he's the better athlete and mentally a bit stronger.
Nadal's peak ground game has an issue with his backhand, even though he compensates by hitting forehands 80% of the time.
Overall, i'd favor Nadal slightly because at his peak i feel he's the better athlete and mentally a bit stronger.
Similar threads
- Poll
