Abbreviated scoring and Bitsy Grant Tennis Center, Atlanta, Georgia

Nacho

Hall of Fame
I was fortunate to have grown up in the 70's and 80's as a Jr. player at Bitsy Grant in Atlanta. It was the epitome of a great, public tennis center, and those who are familiar with Atlanta tennis will know this. There were a group of ex pros, including Bitsy himself almost always playing, sharing stories and having fun talking about the game of tennis. Great collegiate players like Crawford Henry and Bill Shippy, sharing stores with the likes of Bobby Dodd the legendary football coach at Georgia Tech who never missed a day to play tennis. Many of their photos still hang on the walls there. All levels of players enjoyed playing at Bitsy Grant, you could hardly get a court in the afternoons. Of course everyone was always willing to give advice and swap stories while having a beer afterward. Every summer a center adult tournament was held, along with one of the premier adult tournaments of the summer attracting players from all over the South. People were "invited" to play, and honored to do so. Amazingly people came to watch the sr. players! They loved watching some of the old collegiate players playing against each other. Even at age 70, Bitsy Grant was amazing to watch play. As a Jr. Player, it was almost as interesting as watching the pro's. Additionally Jr. tournaments were constantly held, and the Ga Jr Claycourts was one of the tougher events year in and year out in the state. You marked it on your calendar as one to win every year, and the scoring was regular, with you as a player playing two matches a day if you won. You could compete in a tournament on the weekend, maybe on a Friday and weekend and the whole tournament was an event you looked forward to.

There are Bitsy Grant tennis Centers in every city I am sure and I have seen them in the different cities I have lived; Bitsy is a good example for many people who are familiar with tennis in the South so it is my example.

I mentioned this in another thread, and I can't help beating it in because I see it so much in the threads. Questions of changing the scoring, why not enough people play tournaments, why men don't want to play etc etc. I share the Bitsy Grant story because in this day and age we have moved away from the tennis center, game concept, and embraced this league/catering, abbreviated scoring mentality as a solution to tennis participation problems and to drive an inclusive "recreation" sport. But I have a message for all those that believe that abbreviated sets, changing the pointing system, having saturated leagues, and spread out tournaments helps drive tennis. It doesn't! All it does is make the matches unchallenging and saturate the competition and perception that tennis is a recreation sport. Our Jr. and collegiate players are suffering and American tennis is struggling as a result.

The Bitsy Grant tennis center today is nothing like it was for years, its just like every other club, and this is probably the same in other cities with heritage tennis centers like Bitsy. I visited the center recently...The old areas where people congregated to watch tennis and comment are devoid of anyone. The pro shop has been taken over by some offices, and no longer do you see as many people hanging out, talking tennis.

Tennis has oft been criticized as being a wimpy sport, or just for recreation. But, the reality is its a tough competitive sport that requires physical and mental toughness. It is also a sport with a 150 year heritage in the pro and collegiate level. Sr players have been systematically turned off by tennis because of the poor leagues, lack of tournaments and changes in scoring. Changes in scoring might be a solution for a beginner, but the challenge is lost eventually, and the temporary excitement of a no ad point gets old. Its why so many men walk away...much more challenging to play a tough golf course then play a half ass pro set of tennis with no-ad scoring at 9pm at night. Think about it, if abbreviated scoring and one match a day is to make it easier for people why is it necessary in a sport that many consider recreation. Because the scoring is not easy, tennis is tough! And the scoring is one component that contributes to the mental and physical toughness.

Our sport was hijacked years ago by parents interested in just making their kid a winner in a sport where only one person wins.....and making it easy for everyone to participate. Those parents have moved on...And Unfortunately some of that generation of players has now grown up, running the sport with no connection to the traditions of the game but rather to this mentality of inclusive participation by all levels of players. Lets face it, its probably an obvious money maker. I challenge the USTA, ITA, parents, tournament directors, and anyone else involved in tennis to look at the functions of competition, and promote the traditions of the sport. Stop with the abbreviated solutions!

I value the time I had at Bitsy, the connection to the heritage, the relationship I had with older players who could serve as role models. It drove me to participate in the game for years. I just hope there is a decent game to live on and American players to play it.
 

RobFL

Rookie
Are you referring to the recent Georgia Open at Bitsy in July?
A good friend of mine, who i played this week, lost in the semis of the 55 singles in a 3rd set match TB. He was disappointed in that format. He would have won a full 3rd set, he is super fit in 90 degrees and high humidity.
I can understand 3rd set match TBs in the Consy bracket of Senior tournaments, not ever in the main draw, especially the semis.
On the other hand, the match TB has saved doubles on the ATP tour and I'm happy to be able to watch so many good ATP dubs matches on TC.
I was a regular at Bitsy when I lived in the ATL, before heading to Florida. Yep, special place.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Are you referring to the recent Georgia Open at Bitsy in July?
A good friend of mine, who i played this week, lost in the semis of the 55 singles in a 3rd set match TB. He was disappointed in that format. He would have won a full 3rd set, he is super fit in 90 degrees and high humidity.
I can understand 3rd set match TBs in the Consy bracket of Senior tournaments, not ever in the main draw, especially the semis.
On the other hand, the match TB has saved doubles on the ATP tour and I'm happy to be able to watch so many good ATP dubs matches on TC.
I was a regular at Bitsy when I lived in the ATL, before heading to Florida. Yep, special place.

No, just me getting on a soapbox as I do sometimes....I am musing that not enough senior "good" players hang around the sport or the clubs and that no one sees value in this but they should as the tie to tennis heritage is essential and plentiful. And additionally, that because there is no tie to heritage there is a concentration on solving perceived tennis issues by changing the matchplay, scoring, and promoting leagues, which I think is wrong to do.

For the Bitsy tournament recently since you brought this up, they used to hold that tournament in May right around or after the NCAA's, and got a lot of players in it. The same tournament is now being held at Cherokee and it still has a decent turnout. This Bitsy tournament is one they started up a few years ago as part of the friends of Bitsy Grant, to bring tournaments back there. I hate that it's in August, its so hot in Atlanta and they play a lot of the matches in the afternoon which I think is crazy. Matches should all be in the early morning before it gets to be too brutal. I am not in love with playing tournaments in the heat like that, but its part of the deal of playing tennis. And playing at a high senior level it gives you something to shoot for, like running a race. If you can enjoy the experience and challenge of it, and not see it as recreation, then I have no issue with having regular scoring. Peter Howell is still tied to that event and I love that he has it set up as basically a weekend tournament, I think this helps
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
No, just me getting on a soapbox as I do sometimes....I am musing that not enough senior "good" players hang around the sport or the clubs and that no one sees value in this but they should as the tie to tennis heritage is essential and plentiful. And additionally, that because there is no tie to heritage there is a concentration on solving perceived tennis issues by changing the matchplay, scoring, and promoting leagues, which I think is wrong to do.

For the Bitsy tournament recently since you brought this up, they used to hold that tournament in May right around or after the NCAA's, and got a lot of players in it. The same tournament is now being held at Cherokee and it still has a decent turnout. This Bitsy tournament is one they started up a few years ago as part of the friends of Bitsy Grant, to bring tournaments back there. I hate that it's in August, its so hot in Atlanta and they play a lot of the matches in the afternoon which I think is crazy. Matches should all be in the early morning before it gets to be too brutal. I am not in love with playing tournaments in the heat like that, but its part of the deal of playing tennis. And playing at a high senior level it gives you something to shoot for, like running a race. If you can enjoy the experience and challenge of it, and not see it as recreation, then I have no issue with having regular scoring. Peter Howell is still tied to that event and I love that he has it set up as basically a weekend tournament, I think this helps

I've never understood why they play tournaments in Atlanta in August. Atlanta has beautiful weather in the spring and fall, why not play them then? April, May, June, September, October, and November are an amazing time to be outdoors in Atlanta.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
I've never understood why they play tournaments in Atlanta in August. Atlanta has beautiful weather in the spring and fall, why not play them then? April, May, June, September, October, and November are an amazing time to be outdoors in Atlanta.

Ha ha, totally....It is SOOOOOO hot, like ridiculously hot. Really like that everywhere in the South except the coast....I remember one summer as a Jr. Player I was in Macon Ga. playing a tournament and my shoes were melting on the court....March-May, September-November are perfect months in Atlanta. Savannah, Hilton Head, Charleston are fine for summer tennis because of the coast....But Atlanta, Macon, Columbia...Awful
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Our tennis club gets very crowded during USTA junior tournaments and there is no way all the matches can be completed in time unless the super tie-breaker is used in lieu of a third set.

Also, sometimes the temperature has reached 110 degrees.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Our tennis club gets very crowded during USTA junior tournaments and there is no way all the matches can be completed in time unless the super tie-breaker is used in lieu of a third set.

Also, sometimes the temperature has reached 110 degrees.

So implement a qualifying system, limit draws. Or hold a different tournament. And why is playing tennis different then playing football, summer football, soccer matches, summer baseball? Unless it is little league, they play the full game. I remember summer football practice we were out in the Georgia heat for 3-4 hours. Why is tennis handicapped?
 

GPBurdell

New User
So implement a qualifying system, limit draws. Or hold a different tournament. And why is playing tennis different then playing football, summer football, soccer matches, summer baseball? Unless it is little league, they play the full game. I remember summer football practice we were out in the Georgia heat for 3-4 hours. Why is tennis handicapped?
I don't agree that scoring should be changed but I think tennis is different on hard courts because the surface is much hotter than other sports played on turf. It can be 15-20 degrees hotter which is a huge deal in the summertime.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Then have tournament at different times of year? I never played tournaments in Georgia in August unless it was on clay and in Savannah or somewhere mild. I hated that Macon tournament, the qualifiers every June. But not because of the heat; because it was in Macon. Yes it sucks for parents probably to sit there in the hear, but so does watching them play soccer or lacrosse all Saturday. Heat is part of the deal...Changing the scoring makes it easier....and doesn't weed out the non-athletes and pretenders. Or make it competitive for the kids he really can hack it....
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
So implement a qualifying system, limit draws. Or hold a different tournament. And why is playing tennis different then playing football, summer football, soccer matches, summer baseball? Unless it is little league, they play the full game. I remember summer football practice we were out in the Georgia heat for 3-4 hours. Why is tennis handicapped?

There are limited windows available for holding tournaments which are not the highest-rated. Weekends in summer are very much in demand. Our club is city-owned and the tournament monies help in maintaining the facility, and money is further saved by getting volunteers like me to do some of the work. Stretching the days of a tournament also makes the members unhappy because the courts are taken.

It is a balancing act.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
There are limited windows available for holding tournaments which are not the highest-rated. Weekends in summer are very much in demand. Our club is city-owned and the tournament monies help in maintaining the facility, and money is further saved by getting volunteers like me to do some of the work. Stretching the days of a tournament also makes the members unhappy because the courts are taken.

It is a balancing act.

Respectfully, everything you are describing is why there are issues. Too many tournaments and trying to be inclusive of every kid that wants to play instead of having a system that encourages competitiveness, as well as trying to accommodate people not remotely invested in the process like the casual volunteer. To recap, your issues are 1) limited windows for not the highest rated 2) Tournament monies to the club, so profit 3) getting volunteers (unneeded in my opinion)...And end result stretching the tournament. So the solution once again is to abbreviate the scoring and make tennis "easier" for everyone, and better "recreation"....hurting the kids that want to compete, so they move to other more competitive, and available sports. Tennis loses out, and no Americans develop and become successful

I guess my challenge then would be that we need to find a better system for accommodating the ones who want to just learn tennis, and learn to be competitive. And then figure out a way to develop kids who can be successful athletes.

Croatia, Serbia, and Czech republic have figured it out. And those are countries the size of Ohio....with no money. But also, countries not changing the scoring system and taking the competitiveness out of the game.
 

winchestervatennis

Hall of Fame
@Nacho

Just curious the age group you consider "senior?" I am 36 and really one of the younger dudes at the club I play. Hardly any juniors and it depresses me. I'd love to hit with the young guys to try and pass along some knowledge and more generally get to know them. When I was a jr I played with adults and really soaked in everything I could and really cherish the memories and experience. It's also depressing to me the "hang out" crowd isn't around. I believe tennis is the greatest sport around, but unfortunately dying a slow death in rural Virginia.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
@Nacho

Just curious the age group you consider "senior?" I am 36 and really one of the younger dudes at the club I play. Hardly any juniors and it depresses me. I'd love to hit with the young guys to try and pass along some knowledge and more generally get to know them. When I was a jr I played with adults and really soaked in everything I could and really cherish the memories and experience. It's also depressing to me the "hang out" crowd isn't around. I believe tennis is the greatest sport around, but unfortunately dying a slow death in rural Virginia.

It's a vicious cycle. No American men succeeding on tour = no American men in media = no interest from junior boys. Repeat. To them, tennis is a sport for women and skinny Eastern Europeans.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
@Nacho

Just curious the age group you consider "senior?" I am 36 and really one of the younger dudes at the club I play. Hardly any juniors and it depresses me. I'd love to hit with the young guys to try and pass along some knowledge and more generally get to know them. When I was a jr I played with adults and really soaked in everything I could and really cherish the memories and experience. It's also depressing to me the "hang out" crowd isn't around. I believe tennis is the greatest sport around, but unfortunately dying a slow death in rural Virginia.

Good question, senior is anything after college...so 30's and above. By the ITF definition if you are playing in the 45's or below you are considered a "young senior". They used to have a 25's age division....

I agree with you. In France, people are grouped by UTR basically. So a 10 Jr would play a 10 Sr. Competitive match, connection with an older generation, and walla! Lots of French players in the top 20. Also, there is a reason Canadian players are suddenly making it in the top....similar thing
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
In France, people are grouped by UTR basically. So a 10 Jr would play a 10 Sr. Competitive match, connection with an older generation, and walla! Lots of French players in the top 20. Also, there is a reason Canadian players are suddenly making it in the top....similar thing

But isn't that the whole point of NTRP rating?
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Ha ha, totally....It is SOOOOOO hot, like ridiculously hot. Really like that everywhere in the South except the coast....I remember one summer as a Jr. Player I was in Macon Ga. playing a tournament and my shoes were melting on the court....March-May, September-November are perfect months in Atlanta. Savannah, Hilton Head, Charleston are fine for summer tennis because of the coast....But Atlanta, Macon, Columbia...Awful

You would be surprised at what improvement they had made at Macon-new 2 story clubhouse with shaded observation deck for watching stadium courts https://www.facebook.com/6172607217...7260721706896/725955550837412/?type=3&theater

All the higher GA juniors use to hate to play Macon as it was hot and not much to do there over the week of play. Players would try for the 8 waivers; often the top seeds who did not get a waiver would pull out after a first round win-they were only playing for southern closed endorsement. Son was happy to get a waiver in 2015 and play National Selection instead. However, this year Macon attracted some of the best GA players as the tourney sweetened the pot by giving the 18s winner and finalist $600/$400 travel reimbursement and the winner a WC into the qualifying of the Savannah Challenger. With GA schools ending later right before Memorial Day with no time to practice on the clay for the Florida National Selection, son decided to play Qualifier instead of NS and it actually was a great experience this year. All the 18s matches and maybe most of the 16s-at least the main draw-were at John Drew which is closest to the hotels. It also made it easier for the handful of college coaches there to just have to go to one site. It still was hot, but there was more room in the new clubhouse for players to relax plus for the MD there was only one match a day-full 3rd still in main draws, tiebreaks in back draw.

Summer tourneys in the South are not for the weak of heart of any age. 6 days in Macon than a week break then a week in Mobile which is probably even more humid than Macon. Son took one 3 minute med timeout during a 3 1/2 hour 3 setter about 5-6 days into Mobile. Got to keep up the electrolytes...

Son too had shoe uppers melt in summer heat. He learned a couple years ago to never wear black tennis shoes in the summer. When he wore Barricades and got his warranty pair back in the mail, we would hope he got a white or silver pair instead of navy or black. Then he switched to Nike Air Cages, and he could choose what he wanted with his voucher. Cage 2 are tearing in toes in less than a month now so I guess he will return to Adidas-loves the free pair he got at Kzoo. I have heard Adidas has a voucher program now so he would be able to choose style and cover.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
You would be surprised at what improvement they had made at Macon-new 2 story clubhouse with shaded observation deck for watching stadium courts https://www.facebook.com/6172607217...7260721706896/725955550837412/?type=3&theater

All the higher GA juniors use to hate to play Macon as it was hot and not much to do there over the week of play. Players would try for the 8 waivers; often the top seeds who did not get a waiver would pull out after a first round win-they were only playing for southern closed endorsement. Son was happy to get a waiver in 2015 and play National Selection instead. However, this year Macon attracted some of the best GA players as the tourney sweetened the pot by giving the 18s winner and finalist $600/$400 travel reimbursement and the winner a WC into the qualifying of the Savannah Challenger. With GA schools ending later right before Memorial Day with no time to practice on the clay for the Florida National Selection, son decided to play Qualifier instead of NS and it actually was a great experience this year. All the 18s matches and maybe most of the 16s-at least the main draw-were at John Drew which is closest to the hotels. It also made it easier for the handful of college coaches there to just have to go to one site. It still was hot, but there was more room in the new clubhouse for players to relax plus for the MD there was only one match a day-full 3rd still in main draws, tiebreaks in back draw.

Summer tourneys in the South are not for the weak of heart of any age. 6 days in Macon than a week break then a week in Mobile which is probably even more humid than Macon. Son took one 3 minute med timeout during a 3 1/2 hour 3 setter about 5-6 days into Mobile. Got to keep up the electrolytes...

Son too had shoe uppers melt in summer heat. He learned a couple years ago to never wear black tennis shoes in the summer. When he wore Barricades and got his warranty pair back in the mail, we would hope he got a white or silver pair instead of navy or black. Then he switched to Nike Air Cages, and he could choose what he wanted with his voucher. Cage 2 are tearing in toes in less than a month now so I guess he will return to Adidas-loves the free pair he got at Kzoo. I have heard Adidas has a voucher program now so he would be able to choose style and cover.

I would encourage you to have your son write down some of these stories and tales; we forget them fast. I remember all those years playing at JDSTC, and Tattnell across town, staying at the Holiday inn off Riverside, eating red lobster etc....That area has changed a lot. It was a week or so of my life every June throughout the 80's. I only got a waiver one year when I was nursing an ankle injury; won the doubles one year, got to the Semi's a couple of times....it was fun. As hard as it was, the heat, the boring place, terrible hotels etc...It brought me back. Hard to pick up, Hard to put down. Thats what makes tennis so fun for so many, its a tough physical sport we shouldn't make easier.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
Y'all should try south Louisiana if you think Atlanta is hot. We have that kind of heat from May-Sept.

We have some friends and family up that way, so we've played on the area courts a few times. Playing in the Atlanta area in August actually seems cooler if you've just come from Louisiana.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Y'all should try south Louisiana if you think Atlanta is hot. We have that kind of heat from May-Sept.

We have some friends and family up that way, so we've played on the area courts a few times. Playing in the Atlanta area in August actually seems cooler if you've just come from Louisiana.

I've played there in the heat, your right its brutal. Southern Mississippi is probably worse. I did a Southerns tournament in Jackson one time, terrible....
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
I've played there in the heat, your right its brutal. Southern Mississippi is probably worse. I did a Southerns tournament in Jackson one time, terrible....

Growing up there, I'm used to it. It can really be an advantage against opponents who melt in the heat.

For me, it's not "terrible" it's just normal. I played 5 set matches in college against my twin brother that would go 3-4 hours in the August heat and humidity on sunny days in New Orleans. Most opponents from north of I-20 fade after 90 minutes or so in 90+ degree heat. My goal against a lot of better players is to survive that long, and then win when they fade. That's one reason I am not a fan of Fast 4 or other ideas to speed up play (no second serve, etc.) The advantage of fitness and stamina also comes into play in the winter months, but nothing like in August. It's not that I don't feel it (I do), I'm just able to maintain a good level of play (for a 3.5).

A 3 set match is like a 10k race with standard scoring and match play rules. A 5k is a different kind of race.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Growing up there, I'm used to it. It can really be an advantage against opponents who melt in the heat.

For me, it's not "terrible" it's just normal. I played 5 set matches in college against my twin brother that would go 3-4 hours in the August heat and humidity on sunny days in New Orleans. Most opponents from north of I-20 fade after 90 minutes or so in 90+ degree heat. My goal against a lot of better players is to survive that long, and then win when they fade. That's one reason I am not a fan of Fast 4 or other ideas to speed up play (no second serve, etc.) The advantage of fitness and stamina also comes into play in the winter months, but nothing like in August. It's not that I don't feel it (I do), I'm just able to maintain a good level of play (for a 3.5).

A 3 set match is like a 10k race with standard scoring and match play rules. A 5k is a different kind of race.

Ha ha, terrible for me....I love 70's weather, perfect conditions....I agree with you it can be an advantage for sure when you are used to it. Certainly I know how to do it, but melting in the summer heat is just not my thing, especially now that I am confined to indoor courts most of the year.

As you have figured out by now, I am not a fan of changing the scoring or really any part of tennis. Besides the impact it has had on Jr. and college tennis in the US, something close to my heart, I just believe that the way the game is set up is what is so special about it. I really do feel there is a need to change, and believe we are over thinking this. I am not a traditionalist, I can embrace change that impacts something positively, but the scoring isn't the answer. Speeding up tennis isn't really the problem of the sport. TV wants it for better broadcasting of pro and college events, but there is no sport that fits into TV's wishes perfectly....and the goal of sports shouldn't be to cater to ESPN
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
I think juniors are going to want scoring and rules to be as close as possible with the pro game. Getting more juniors into the sport is more a matter of recruiting. The shooting sports now are making concentrated efforts to recruit and retain junior shooters. They are succeeding, because they are trying hard. In contrast, I'm not seeing much efforts in most high schools or junior high schools to attract the better athletes to tennis. They seem content to take whatever students come their way. In the non-school centers, there are some efforts at recruiting, but there needs to be a change in thinking: maybe reaching out through the Y and through churches like approaches that have such success drawing new athletes to basketball and soccer and swimming.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
I think juniors are going to want scoring and rules to be as close as possible with the pro game. Getting more juniors into the sport is more a matter of recruiting. The shooting sports now are making concentrated efforts to recruit and retain junior shooters. They are succeeding, because they are trying hard. In contrast, I'm not seeing much efforts in most high schools or junior high schools to attract the better athletes to tennis. They seem content to take whatever students come their way. In the non-school centers, there are some efforts at recruiting, but there needs to be a change in thinking: maybe reaching out through the Y and through churches like approaches that have such success drawing new athletes to basketball and soccer and swimming.

Exactly....Any changes make them universal, so its apples to apples. The problem is that people think tennis is tennis, but changing aspects of the game does American tennis a disservice and creates a variation of the game...the stats show that. We just all need to understand thats what happens.....recruiting for the sport falls on us, and if the sr players of the sport, the ones who played Jr and college tennis go away, there is no one to recruit and continue the tradition
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Interesting timing that Tennis magazine this month has an article on Fast4 and several college coaches are saying this is the future if the game has to be preserved.

Tennis has already changed with tie-breaks.

Cricket went from an indefinite amount of days for two innings to matches that can be finished in a few hours.

Casual viewers seem to be attracted more to WTT or IPTL matches of abbreviated format than long boring duels.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
That article was one sided, which is expected since the magazine is in cahoots with the USTA. USTA wants it to up the participation because their marketing studies suggested this.

Tiebreaks changed awhile ago, and were UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED worldwide. Abbreviated scoring is something practiced in the US for JR participation and to promote college tennis on TV. It bothers me that it is not accepted worldwide, thus we feel the affects with our JR development.

Comparing tennis to cricket is laughable, not even close to the same sort of issues. I can't believe they even did that in the article, it's a joke.

Watching a close match in tennis is hardly boring. The same people who make those complaints say soccer is boring, or a baseball game is boring. They don't understand tennis thus that is their excuse.

I always point to the Federer Roddick Wimbledon final, nothing boring about that. Could watch that kind of match over a baseball game, or some lopsided football game. It's all a matter of taste. No one cared about time till TV was involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Since the WTT format was introduced, we have seen Fast4 (Even Federer is promoting this, and I think he knows how to play long matches), CTL, and IPTL adopting these formats. Can't be a coincidence since real money is involved, and even more so because unlike the established tournaments, there is no established audience and it is truly a business situation.

Time is a problem in general, and not just because of TV. As the article points out, kids activities are very regimented now. The juniors at my club allot time for practice and tournaments, and for study for AP courses. Academics vs tennis is not an option for them, it is academics + tennis. And by academics I don't mean A grades in school - their bar is much higher. Time is of the essence. For juniors, college students, and spectators.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Since the WTT format was introduced, we have seen Fast4 (Even Federer is promoting this, and I think he knows how to play long matches), CTL, and IPTL adopting these formats. Can't be a coincidence since real money is involved, and even more so because unlike the established tournaments, there is no established audience and it is truly a business situation.

Time is a problem in general, and not just because of TV. As the article points out, kids activities are very regimented now. The juniors at my club allot time for practice and tournaments, and for study for AP courses. Academics vs tennis is not an option for them, it is academics + tennis. And by academics I don't mean A grades in school - their bar is much higher. Time is of the essence. For juniors, college students, and spectators.

My understanding is Federer is not actively promoting this, but rather "trying it out", it's a big difference. And he is not one to make waves, he's the sports ambassador. The majority of ATP and WTA players hate it! 80% of college players and coaches hated it when surveyed, but it got rammed down their throat.

I personally think it's silly, the majority of tennis matches go a couple of sets and last an Hour, hour and half.

As I have said many times I can embrace change, but not when it is something only taking place I. The US and thus not giving our JR's a chance to be successful oat later levels. If the world changes, I can accept it. But don't handicap our Jr's


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
People said the same thing about ROG and now its use is expanding beyond kids to beginner adults.

Majority of players will hate it till they start getting less money. When doubles players were faced with the prospect of doubles being eliminated because it was essentially funded by singles, they agreed to several changes, including a tie-break instead of the third set. College tennis programs are being cut and the stands are empty. The colleges want more people to watch and also get TV rights, but of course the cable companies won't show long matches if there is no viewer interest.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
What is with the big attachment to long matches anyways? Usain Bolt does not run the marathon and Phelps does not swim the 1500 m.

I almost went to sleep watching the 800 m and 1500 m swim events.

No thanks.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
What is with the big attachment to long matches anyways? Usain Bolt does not run the marathon and Phelps does not swim the 1500 m.

I almost went to sleep watching the 800 m and 1500 m swim events.

No thanks.

Your comparing a running event to tennis? Ok, Bolt practices and trains hours upon hours a day, no issue fitting that in his schedule.....it takes time to train, he's not good by accident.

To be good at anything takes time and practice. To want to be good takes a desire to achieve something that is difficult. If it's hard to pick up, it's hard to put down. The passion and love is developed. If it's easy and quick, why bother. Easy to pick up, easy to put down....Bolts challenge is his own PR....different concept. For the tennis player it's being the best in a tournament. Does No ad really determine this?

Again, your trying to debate and not clear with my concern. American Jr's who grow up play abbreviated scoring struggle in college and pros. The facts are the facts. The rest of the world doesn't adopt abbreviated scoring in their JR ranks, and their players are dominating tennis. It hurts our sport here in the us, it hurts our Jr's, it has seen international players take over the college ranks on and on. I am sure you can come up with other reasons, and certainly there are factors, but learning abbreviated scoring hurts Jr's on the big stage when they get there. Plus, it drives would be athletes away from the game because it's not challenging. I don't care about longer matches, not my motivation. But I can appreciate a dog fight in tennis, and often feel short changed with abbreviated scoring.

If the rest of the world plays baseball, and we only play softball, how can we ever compete in Baseball? It's a metaphor, not trying to debate baseball

I watched the Bryan Brothers play doubles recently, they went to three sets, exciting match, pumped to see a third set...oh wait only a ten point breaker for the third. Everyone in the stands was bummed.


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sureshs

Bionic Poster
You watched the Bryans play recently because of the settlement. Otherwise you would not have watched them at all.

Many courts are being converted to condos for golf players to stay. Tennis courts are perceived as a waste of real estate. Pickleball is being increasingly played on tennis courts and coaches are trying to get certified in both. If tennis does not attract new people and new viewers, it affects the industry and all the existing players, especially the ones who cannot afford country club memberships.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
You watched the Bryans play recently because of the settlement. Otherwise you would not have watched them at all.

Many courts are being converted to condos for golf players to stay. Tennis courts are perceived as a waste of real estate. Pickleball is being increasingly played on tennis courts and coaches are trying to get certified in both. If tennis does not attract new people and new viewers, it affects the industry and all the existing players, especially the ones who cannot afford country club memberships.

Fair concerns....but I am still not convinced abbreviated scoring is the answer for JR tennis at least.

My approach is to have better Americans developed for College and pro tennis, so I feel they should practice and play as a pro would. I feel abbreviated scoring hampers this. To me, more American success at those levels will bring more people to the courts.

You are taking the approach that time hampers people and that abbreviated scoring is the solution, which is the approach of the USTA right now. You believe that if kids can fit a match in on their schedule they will be more inclined to play tennis over other sports, thus more people on the courts. I am assuming you do not think development will do anything with respect to bringing people out? And tennis is tennis, abbreviated scoring doesn't have an impact on development.

Correct me if I am wrong.....we just can agree to disagree on this one. Again if tennis universally accepts abbreviated scoring, I can get there. But it hasn't, and thus we need to think outside the box to approach the issues concerning tennis

Appreciate your input and debate.


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sureshs

Bionic Poster
NCAA Div 1 plays no ad and lets in play. Has that kept Stevie Johnson from making it to the pro tour?

Pro tennis is different and requires different commitment.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
NCAA Div 1 plays no ad and lets in play. Has that kept Stevie Johnson from making it to the pro tour?

Pro tennis is different and requires different commitment.

They didn't have no ad when Johnson played, it was implemented in 2015..... and his family has been quoted as saying he would not have had the success in college if it was No-Ad, and may have considered skipping college tennis. He would have lost more matches, and thus maybe had a lack of confidence to play in the pros.....No-Ad=Parity....ask any college coach

And I believe college tennis should be a stepping stone to the pros, not a lessor commitment. Should be preparing American players, not be an obstacle....


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sureshs

Bionic Poster
They didn't have no ad when Johnson played, it was implemented in 2015..... and his family has been quoted as saying he would not have had the success in college if it was No-Ad, and may have considered skipping college tennis. He would have lost more matches, and thus maybe had a lack of confidence to play in the pros.....No-Ad=Parity....ask any college coach

And I believe college tennis should be a stepping stone to the pros, not a lessor commitment. Should be preparing American players, not be an obstacle....


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Most pros don't go to college, whether in US or Europe
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Most pros don't go to college, whether in US or Europe

Theres a reason for that.....let me explain

But first, lets look at some figures:

30 years ago, 1986; there were 32 Americans in the top 100 of the ATP tour. Take out Ivan Lendl, Johan Krick and you have 30.

25 Americans of the 30 played College tennis, or 83% if you like percentages

I am not including non Americans in this, such as Michael Pernfors, All American from Georgia. I can figure that out as well, but I am estimating another 10 or so foreign players. Would be glad to figure it out with time

Lets go to todays rankings, 2016....

6 Americans in the top 100....yes 6

2 of those played collegiate tennis...Isner and Johnson

There are 2 more, Anderson and Becker that played....4 total!

Whats the difference between 1986 and 2016? Glad you asked. Its not shorter shorts, or some wood racquets. No...But its the beginning of integration of no ad scoring by Van Allen in the 70's, which took root in the 80's in our Jr tennis tournaments, only to become the norm in the US during the 90's and on. Additionally, College tennis went from a primary tournament playing format where students competed, to a team vs team format. Fun for casual fans, bad for development. Lastly, you had an American Dominated sport, over time taken over by International players. Many reasons for this, but one of them is they are better prepared for winning at the college level.

So, we went from 40% of players developing in College, a significant number given the participation especially for US players; to now 4 %. Its disgraceful. And it has nothing to do with it taken too much time. Its an unthought through argument perpetuated by TV and Satellite parents, and we all should be ashamed of this.

So yes your right, I wouldn't recommend a promising Jr. player go to college to practice a 20 hr limit, no ad scoring, 1 set doubles and 10 pt breakers. none of that prepares players for the ATP tour. Thats a crime....It worked at one point, and we have done a huge disservice to our college sport, American Tennis, and the future of our Jr's.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Lastly, you had an American Dominated sport, over time taken over by International players. Many reasons for this, but one of them is they are better prepared for winning at the college level.

I don't know about better prepared. Some of the best tennis talent worldwide applies to a large number of US universities, and if you look at each university in isolation, the recruit looks very good. It is a consequence of the best applicants being distributed over schools of different caliber.

I see in every Olympics that some of the top competitors in many countries were actually NCAA champions when they studied in the US. So if you think back to when they were in a US college, they would have been better than most of the locals on their team. That does not reflect on the locals.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
I don't know about better prepared. Some of the best tennis talent worldwide applies to a large number of US universities, and if you look at each university in isolation, the recruit looks very good. It is a consequence of the best applicants being distributed over schools of different caliber.

Wait, you just said players bypass college. I just presented you the facts, 30 years ago to today. I have no idea what you are saying here now.

I see in every Olympics that some of the top competitors in many countries were actually NCAA champions when they studied in the US. So if you think back to when they were in a US college, they would have been better than most of the locals on their team. That does not reflect on the locals.

Your not making sense to me. Remember....top 100 players today, only 4% played in college. You were right before, they skip college, now your saying the opposite? Please clarify. Top Competitors in the Olympics?


I don't know about better prepared. Some of the best tennis talent worldwide applies to a large number of US universities

Sure they do! Once they have taken their gap year playing ITF events while train hopping across Europe. US kid? Oh, he can't take any time off....he has to travel across the country and too many wins in futures events or they have to forgo college. Its why some of the skip college.
The International also grows up playing regular scoring, and not complaining about time. Its their way out of Croatia, or Serbia, or the Czech Republic. I have been to those countries, I love them all, but the opportunities are few and far between. Tennis is a good living, and they can do it playing in Europe and now do it here in the US in our schools. US player? No way....No gap year, no ITF tournament opportunities...The International player comes in Better Prepared, Older, more experienced; its why so many coaches go after them.

I have lived this. I played D-1 tennis...The International players on my team were Jr/22 yrs old, Jr/23 yrs old, and Soph 21 yrs old. What? And if you look around rosters you will see similar things. I was a freshman 18 yrs old.

Do your research
 

HookEmJeff

Semi-Pro
Yes, but it hasn't been widely accepted except with Sr. players in the US....so it is not used properly and doesn't work right.

USTA's NTRP leagues are the largest recreational tennis league in the world. Not sure how you can say it "hasn't been widely accepted."
 

HookEmJeff

Semi-Pro
Theres a reason for that.....let me explain

But first, lets look at some figures:

30 years ago, 1986; there were 32 Americans in the top 100 of the ATP tour. Take out Ivan Lendl, Johan Krick and you have 30.

25 Americans of the 30 played College tennis, or 83% if you like percentages

I am not including non Americans in this, such as Michael Pernfors, All American from Georgia. I can figure that out as well, but I am estimating another 10 or so foreign players. Would be glad to figure it out with time

Lets go to todays rankings, 2016....

6 Americans in the top 100....yes 6

2 of those played collegiate tennis...Isner and Johnson

There are 2 more, Anderson and Becker that played....4 total!

Whats the difference between 1986 and 2016? Glad you asked. Its not shorter shorts, or some wood racquets. No...But its the beginning of integration of no ad scoring by Van Allen in the 70's, which took root in the 80's in our Jr tennis tournaments, only to become the norm in the US during the 90's and on. Additionally, College tennis went from a primary tournament playing format where students competed, to a team vs team format. Fun for casual fans, bad for development. Lastly, you had an American Dominated sport, over time taken over by International players. Many reasons for this, but one of them is they are better prepared for winning at the college level.

So, we went from 40% of players developing in College, a significant number given the participation especially for US players; to now 4 %. Its disgraceful. And it has nothing to do with it taken too much time. Its an unthought through argument perpetuated by TV and Satellite parents, and we all should be ashamed of this.

So yes your right, I wouldn't recommend a promising Jr. player go to college to practice a 20 hr limit, no ad scoring, 1 set doubles and 10 pt breakers. none of that prepares players for the ATP tour. Thats a crime....It worked at one point, and we have done a huge disservice to our college sport, American Tennis, and the future of our Jr's.

If football or basketball had HALF of their scholarship players from another country besides the US, do you think it would affect participation and willingness to attempt to even try to reach collegiate level or even higher levels? There are certainly foreign-born players in every NCAA sport, but when you're talking about HALF of them like the number is in tennis, that certainly is going to erode motivation for high schoolers to put a "good college try" in when they can't get even get into schools they'd probably legitimately want as their fourth or fifth or even....twentieth choice.

http://www.si.com/vault/1994/06/06/...s-now-resemble-the-roll-at-the-united-nations

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12561534

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-college-athletics
(this link shows that there were 8,211 participants in NCAA tennis programs). Divide that number by 1/4 (for each class) then divide that number in half by roughly each gender and you have some pretty small numbers of total scholarships available. And we haven't even started adding in the number of foreign athletes getting scholarships over American kids.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...eim-on-foreign-college-tennis-players.525725/

Some of these links are from stories 20+ years old, so it's a problem that hasn't gone away.
 
Last edited:

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Hi @HookEmJeff welcome to the discussion. Since you are jumping in and cherry picking some quotes, to get you up to speed you are in the middle of a lengthy discussion between @sureshs and I about abbreviated scoring and its affect on tennis. My thread is about this plus the lack of interaction with Senior players that is desperately needed again, and highly ignored.

With that said, I am glad to discuss the issues you bring up which are somewhat of a departure from the thread

USTA's NTRP leagues are the largest recreational tennis league in the world. Not sure how you can say it "hasn't been widely accepted."

NTRP is a US/USTA measurement, not a world measurement for tennis. Countries like France and Canada have their own, and the UTR method has gained steam in the JR and College ranks, as well as part of the US like North California. UTR has also been accepted by many people across the world and the pro ranks as a good measurement of ability. NTRP and UTR have a lot of similarities except that UTR also measures success in losses. This is just a high level summation, not looking to debate it. Hopefully this provides context to the statement that it is not "widely accepted". It is in reference to worldwide. For the US, sure its a measurement tool for people who want to play in USTA leagues, and if used right can be a great tool. But again, I would hesitate to say that it has been widely accepted even here except for the fact that is has to be used if you want to participate in leagues. Leagues are declining, and your belief that we have the largest leagues is skewed by the sub leagues that exist in cities like Atlanta (ALTA) and Cincinnati (GCTA)-as examples- which forgo USTA leagues and have their own. There is a reason for this, but thats a different problem relative to the thread. Lots of other threads about that....

If football or basketball had HALF of their scholarship players from another country besides the US, do you think it would affect participation and willingness to attempt to even try to reach collegiate level or even higher levels?

It depends. Exact same sport with the exact same rules, no, it would not affect participation. Why, because it is hard an competitive. Soccer is a good example of this. Lots of kids participate, and its a hard sport to learn. Also, it is emblematic of the struggles we have in the US where we have so many options. What I have stated (several times over in this thread) is that we should not adapt something different from the rest of the world. Our kids should learn how to play what the ATP players play, as in regular scoring. The rest of the world does it, and their players have overtaken ours, and are now shutting them out. My goal is to see more Americans participate in the pros and college. I love to see international players, but I want to see ours be more successful especially in college. They used to dominate the pros as I indicated above, there is a reason why that is no longer. As you said we have the largest rec leagues in the world, we should have the most pros out there. To me, more pros=more participation, don't you subscribe to that? Many people on these forums are concerned about the same things, and I strongly believe it is important to discuss the issues and I don't believe time to play is the issue except for rec players. Altering the time out there doesn't bring people to the game, and hurts the athletes who want to compete.

There are certainly foreign-born players in every NCAA sport, but when you're talking about HALF of them like the number is in tennis, that certainly is going to erode motivation for high schoolers to put a "good college try" in when they can't get even get into schools they'd probably legitimately want as their fourth or fifth or even....twentieth choice.

EXACTLY! BINGO! There is a reason 67% of International players are taking US tennis scholarships. Sure they exist in other Olympic sports played in colleges, but not to this degree. Think about it, I have presented the numbers 30 years ago to today. What has changed? Scoring, team formats, lack of tournaments, a consolidation of heritage tournaments, and I personally believe a lack of keeping senior players engaged in the game. Not the 3.5 NTRP mom, but college and Jr players. They disappear hence the poor participation in the 4.5+ levels and National tournaments. I encourage you to research and look at the France model, they have 12 pros in the top 100, we only have 6. Also, look at Canada, they are starting to have Jr's make it in the pros where they never did before...there is a reason for that as well

http://www.si.com/vault/1994/06/06/...s-now-resemble-the-roll-at-the-united-nations

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12561534

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-college-athletics
(this link shows that there were 8,211 participants in NCAA tennis programs). Divide that number by 1/4 (for each class) then divide that number in half by roughly each gender and you have some pretty small numbers of total scholarships available. And we haven't even started adding in the number of foreign athletes getting scholarships over American kids.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...eim-on-foreign-college-tennis-players.525725/

Some of these links are from stories 20+ years old, so it's a problem that hasn't gone away.

Your links are nice, but don't really have anything to do with the discussion. I am not advocating for more scholarships in this thread (although the lack of in mens tennis is appalling). Tennis is a tough sport. It requires years of practice, and a mastery in order to appreciate it and get the opportunities. At the same time it is also a recreation sport, we have to separate the two. The recreation sport, yes has time constraints. The pro sport doesn't, and we should treat our Jr's that way.
 

kingcheetah

Hall of Fame
I think no ad scoring at all levels would be an interesting experiment-- might return the favor to the server a little bit in tight games.
 

kingcheetah

Hall of Fame
Good to see you chime in....I know you love No-Ad:p

I love no ad because it speeds things up in pusher matches (looking at you, women's court 6) and I got lucky in the one open I've played with d1 rules... if I'd lost more of those points, I'd probably be on your team ;)
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
But I agree with you that having different rules at different levels for juniors/college players/pros is dumb.

Ha ha...yes maybe thats it, I've had too many losses to pushers, retrievers and 65 year old men with No ad....Yes, make it even everywhere, and world wide, or don't do it....Bam! I'm dropping the mic now
 

kingcheetah

Hall of Fame
Ha ha...yes maybe thats it, I've had too many losses to pushers, retrievers and 65 year old men with No ad....Yes, make it even everywhere, and world wide, or don't do it....Bam! I'm dropping the mic now

But you KNOW I'm with you on how bogus it is to reduce doubles. That should be 2/3 sets, a point each match.
 
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