How should Fed play in the final?

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Alright, armchair critics, have your say.

We all know Fed is a massive underdog vs. Rafa in a slam final at the AO. Nevertheless, what kind of tactics would give Fed the greatest chance of success come Sunday and why?
Be specific and the floor is yours.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Play with nothing to lose. Just tell yourself you had no business being in the final coming from a 6 month layoff.

Tell yourself that the losses prior to 2014 bears no relevance today. You have won the most recent match and that is all that matters.

Go for aggressive second serves. Don't rally at all. Just tank games where Rafa is 40-0 on his serve.
 
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R_Federer

Professional
Alright, armchair critics, have your say.

We all know Fed is a massive underdog vs. Rafa in a slam final at the AO. Nevertheless, what kind of tactics would give Fed the greatest chance of success come Sunday and why?
Be specific and the floor is yours.

Line is already fishy from Vegas with Federer as only a SLIGHT underdog not a massive underdog as you say. I think for that reason Federer will win. Vegas knows something.

Anyways, Federer I would like him to serve and volley A LOT. Almost as much as Zverev did against Murray. Don't make this physical.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Federer needs to be aggressive and go for his shots. If he approaches the net he needs to aim closer to the lines. I would tell him to attack the Nadal forehand in the early stages, if pulled wide on the backhand try and use the slice to reset the point etc...TBH I just hope Federer serves amazing and has enough off the ground to steal the vital games. He needs to be aggressive, he doesn't have the movement of Dimitrov to play those intense rallies at this stage.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
Basically he needs to dictate and confidently hit his BH down the line. Not just give Nadal cross court looks and serve well. If you watch their indoor matches, he effortlessly goes down the line compared higher bouncing courts, which allows him to execute his own tennis, including attacking the net with good approaches. But I don't know how low bouncing the AO court is compared to indoor courts. Night match will help.
 

Jaitock1991

Hall of Fame
Very nuanced question, but my 3 biggest points:

1) Serve extremely well. Without this, his chance of winning is as good as ZERO. High first serve percentage, 70 is a minimum imo. Mix it up obviusly, but use the slice out wide on the deuce as effectively as possible. Rafa usually stands waaaaay back. Serve and volley every now and then, but don't overdo it.

2) Return as aggressively as possible, and generally end the points quickly if possible. No point in giving Rafa what he wants(long, grueling rallies to grind Fed down). Better to lose the point right away than wasting energy, only to give it away 20 shots later(consistently long points will kill him). This also won't give Bull a whole lot of rythm, and, if executed well, take him out of his comfort zone.

3) Commit to the gameplan, and don't lose faith in it when going gets tough. I've seen this way too often with Roger. He plays increadible, and seems to be in full flight. Then, Rafa comes up with a few super passing shots and out of nowhere Fed fades like dust in the wind. Starts trying too much, and seems to lose all belief in his abilities.


But at the end of the day, I don't think this match is on Fed's racquet. If the Rafa of today shows up on Sunday he'll beat Roger no matter how well he plays.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Very nuanced question, but my 3 biggest points:

1) Serve extremely well. Without this, his chance of winning is as good as ZERO. High first serve percentage, 70 is a minimum imo. Mix it up obviusly, but use the slice out wide on the deuce as effectively as possible. Rafa usually stands waaaaay back. Serve and volley every now and then, but don't overdo it.

2) Return as aggressively as possible, and generally end the points quickly if possible. No point in giving Rafa what he wants(long, grueling rallies to grind Fed down). Better to lose the point right away than wasting energy, only to give it away 20 shots later(consistently long points will kill him). This also won't give Bull a whole lot of rythm, and, if executed well, take him out of his comfort zone.

3) Commit to the gameplan, and don't lose faith in it when going gets tough. I've seen this way too often with Roger. He plays increadible, and seems to be in full flight. Then, Rafa comes up with a few super passing shots and out of nowhere Fed fades like dust in the wind. Starts trying too much, and seems to lose all belief in his abilities.


But at the end of the day, I don't think this match is on Fed's racquet. If the Rafa of today shows up on Sunday he'll beat Roger no matter how well he plays.
Play with nothing to lose. Just tell yourself you had no business being in the final coming from a 6 month layoff.

Tell yourself that the losses prior to 2014 bears no relevance today. You have won the most recent match and that is all that matters.

Go for aggressive second serves. Don't rally at all. Just tank games where Rafa is 40-0 on his serve.
I think a combination of these 2 would be great - i.e. he needs to play with a free mind. And end points as quickly as possibly, play the match on his terms and accept that Rafa will pass him and make incredible gets.
@Jaitock1991 , excellent post, thank you
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
I feel like we have heard all of these ideas before.

Fed really has no answer to the heavy topspin to his BH. His return of serve is weaker than Dimitrov's and he is a mental midget on break points against Nadal.

We'll be lucky to see the final go to four sets honestly.

The only hope Fed really has is that Nadal overdoses on Rogaine before the match or something.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
I feel like we have heard all of these ideas before.

Fed really has no answer to the heavy topspin to his BH. His return of serve is weaker than Dimitrov's and he is a mental midget on break points against Nadal.

We'll be lucky to see the final go to four sets honestly.

The only hope Fed really has is that Nadal overdoses on Rogaine before the match or something.
sadly, you're right
 

gino

Legend
Alright, armchair critics, have your say.

We all know Fed is a massive underdog vs. Rafa in a slam final at the AO. Nevertheless, what kind of tactics would give Fed the greatest chance of success come Sunday and why?
Be specific and the floor is yours.

 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Federer needs to be aggressive and go for his shots. If he approaches the net he needs to aim closer to the lines. I would tell him to attack the Nadal forehand in the early stages, if pulled wide on the backhand try and use the slice to reset the point etc...TBH I just hope Federer serves amazing and has enough off the ground to steal the vital games. He needs to be aggressive, he doesn't have the movement of Dimitrov to play those intense rallies at this stage.

I agree that he lacks Dimitrov's athleticism. I was extremely impressed by by Dimitrov's defense in the SF. A recent and admittedly unscientific examination of speed on court ranked Dimitrov in the top 5 of the men's game, behind Djokovic and Murray. Fed was well behind them (but so was Nadal in that same study).
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
An INDOOR court plays very differently obviously. Nadal has always been a crappy indoor player. How many titles does he even have indoors?

Basically, I'd give Fed about a 35% chance in this match at best. That's about what I'd give Nadal of beating Djokovic btw.

Again, we'd all love to see the unveiling of some new secret weapon or tennis Wunderwaffe, but Fed has exhausted his options basically and will have his BH pounded into submission again.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
I agree that he lacks Dimitrov's athleticism. I was extremely impressed by by Dimitrov's defense in the SF. A recent and admittedly unscientific examination of speed on court ranked Dimitrov in the top 5 of the men's game, behind Djokovic and Murray. Fed was well behind them (but so was Nadal in that same study).
was that the "study" showing Fedal a full 10 km/h slower than Murrovic and comparable to Halep? If so, I cry BS.
That said, Dimi is fast and had some great gets that Fed can't even dream of.

@NatF - agree, he needs to trust himself to attack the Rafa forehand more. The backhand of Rafa has been incredible stable, only gave a handful of unforced errors until the middle of the 4th set today. And then he ABSOLUTELY needs to win the first set and take his chances on BPs/in TB's
 

mistik

Hall of Fame
Fed will rush Rafa and this time Rafa in my book wont come up with the goods. This Dimitrov match was so long. If you guys seriously think it wont have any affect on the match you arent serious.
 

gino

Legend
An INDOOR court plays very differently obviously. Nadal has always been a crappy indoor player. How many titles does he even have indoors?

Basically, I'd give Fed about a 35% chance in this match at best. That's about what I'd give Nadal of beating Djokovic btw.

Again, we'd all love to see the unveiling of some new secret weapon or tennis Wunderwaffe, but Fed has exhausted his options basically and will have his BH pounded into submission again.

Nadalgagger, I'd like to hear you back your claims with some tactical or strategic support. Either way, the last final they played in Australia went five, so I'd say with the ball/court conditions and Federer's serving trends, it's a 60/40 advantage to Rafa.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
An INDOOR court plays very differently obviously. Nadal has always been a crappy indoor player. How many titles does he even have indoors?

Basically, I'd give Fed about a 35% chance in this match at best. That's about what I'd give Nadal of beating Djokovic btw.

Again, we'd all love to see the unveiling of some new secret weapon or tennis Wunderwaffe, but Fed has exhausted his options basically and will have his BH pounded into submission again.
One thing that Fed has done better than normally, most of this tournament, is to take the 2nd serves with a topspin backhand and attack on it. Needless to say, Rafa will give him plenty of serves to the backhand and if that shot is on, that could help Fed quite a bit (wasn't on as much vs. Wawa however)
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
was that the "study" showing Fedal a full 10 km/h slower than Murrovic and comparable to Halep? If so, I cry BS.
That said, Dimi is fast and had some great gets that Fed can't even dream of.

@NatF - agree, he needs to trust himself to attack the Rafa forehand more. The backhand of Rafa has been incredible stable, only gave a handful of unforced errors until the middle of the 4th set today. And then he ABSOLUTELY needs to win the first set and take his chances on BPs/in TB's

Yes, that was it. I agree that it was highly unscientific, but nevertheless we'd both agree that Fed 2017 just doesn't have Dimitrov's defense. Many of Rafa's shots in the SF against Dimi will be winners against Fed.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Nadalgagger, I'd like to hear you back your claims with some tactical or strategic support. Either way, the last final they played in Australia went five, so I'd say with the ball/court conditions and Federer's serving trends, it's a 60/40 advantage to Rafa.
"Tactical or strategic support" is not something that I, a random 4.0 player, can offer the GOAT!

That said, I think agree with most of the posters above. The problem is that matches between these two almost always are played on Rafa's terms. He doesn't let Fed play his game, and that's why the H2H is so horribly lopsided.
Fed doesn't possess the BH to handle the Nadal forehand the way that Djokovic can.

The keys to beating Nadal:
1) Serve like a god (like Rosol did)
2) Return like a god (like Djokovic always does)
3) Demonstrate superb mental toughness (like Dimitrov admirably did in his uphill yet unsuccessful battle last night)

Fed, I fear, is really only capable of one of those against Nadal.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
His BH has to be of the highest quality. If you watched Dimi today, that is how fed has to play on sunday. High quality tennis with high intensity over 5 sets.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
Fed's serve is better than Grigor's and so is his forehand. Plus he doesn't have any interest in grinding with Nadal. IMO, the fast court conditions + a grueling 5 setter today with Grigor give Roger a unique advantage.

I'm saying Roger in 4.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
His BH has to be of the highest quality. If you watched Dimi today, that is how fed has to play on sunday. High quality tennis with high intensity over 5 sets.
Strongly disagree.
1) Little to no hope of Fed's BH behaving like Dimi's did today
2) No hope of Fed's legs being up for a long 5-setter vs. Rafa.
3) No hope for Fed in long rallies (Rafa and Dimi played more points above 4 shots than below if I heard the commentators right), that's a death sentence for Fed.

Fed needs to keep the rallies as short as possible and move forward as soon as possible and accept he'll get burned up there every now and then. And then full on attack on Rafa's 2nd serves, including a few SABR's to through him off. And very few slices in general and if he plays them, then play them deep.

Who are you cheering for? Your old favorite or Rafa?
 
D

Deleted member 735320

Guest
One of two options; either hit through Rafa and do not allow any rallies, end points within 2-3 shots
or attack like Mishca Zverev did to Murray. I do not see Rafa folding against Roger any other way. He has owned him and they BOTH know it. Have dinner with Annacone, Mac and Martina to go over how to attack and damn the torpedoes keep coming in.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Get as many 1st serves in as possible, hit your backhand like you did against Nishikori, hit your forehand DTL as much as possible(Nadal's backhand's looked more solid than his forehand recently), approach the net on easy putaways or when you've forced him to really stretch out wide and attack his 2nd serve whenever the opportunity presents itself. Also try to imagine it's just another left hander on the other side of the net and you stand a great chance of winning. Good luck Roger. :)
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
Strongly disagree.
1) Little to no hope of Fed's BH behaving like Dimi's did today
2) No hope of Fed's legs being up for a long 5-setter vs. Rafa.
3) No hope for Fed in long rallies (Rafa and Dimi played more points above 4 shots than below if I heard the commentators right), that's a death sentence for Fed.

Fed needs to keep the rallies as short as possible and move forward as soon as possible and accept he'll get burned up there every now and then. And then full on attack on Rafa's 2nd serves, including a few SABR's to through him off. And very few slices in general and if he plays them, then play them deep.

Who are you cheering for? Your old favorite or Rafa?

That's common sense. That is how Federer has played for 2 years. The problem is Nadal doesn't let Federer play how he wants to play. In order for Federer to execute the strategy he does against everyone else, he needs to be hitting his backhand well. Specifically down the line. He also needs to serve well.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Play with nothing to lose. Just tell yourself you had no business being in the final coming from a 6 month layoff.

Tell yourself that the losses prior to 2014 bears no relevance today. You have won the most recent match and that is all that matters.

Go for aggressive second serves. Don't rally at all. Just tank games where Rafa is 40-0 on his serve.
Actually Roger may pee in his pants thinking that this is the LAST chance to win a major and add to his legacy...........and he will likely choke thinking about it..
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Strongly disagree.
1) Little to no hope of Fed's BH behaving like Dimi's did today
2) No hope of Fed's legs being up for a long 5-setter vs. Rafa.
3) No hope for Fed in long rallies (Rafa and Dimi played more points above 4 shots than below if I heard the commentators right), that's a death sentence for Fed.

Fed needs to keep the rallies as short as possible and move forward as soon as possible and accept he'll get burned up there every now and then. And then full on attack on Rafa's 2nd serves, including a few SABR's to through him off. And very few slices in general and if he plays them, then play them deep.

Who are you cheering for? Your old favorite or Rafa?
Yes but fed doesn't have to stay on the baseline,, he is much better at attacking the net than Dimi. and also much better server than Dimi. so if you combine these two factors on super fast court then Roger may have a chance afterall.........
 

ultradr

Legend
Alright, armchair critics, have your say.

We all know Fed is a massive underdog vs. Rafa in a slam final at the AO. Nevertheless, what kind of tactics would give Fed the greatest chance of success come Sunday and why?
Be specific and the floor is yours.

This is tough call.

I thought Federer was at least somewhat out of form and Nadal was increasingly gaining form.
And my observation WAS Federer has sub-par ground game form and Nadal was increasingly getting sharp in his ground game.
Therefore, I thought Federer should do something similar to Berdych match, 1st strike tennis with opportunistic net play.
Not
his usual baseline game he used against Nishikori.

Then after watching semi-finals of both men. nothing is clear.
Nadal's ground game is still fraction of what it used to be.
I think this is back to square one.

The form of both men are very unclear.
 

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
If he's really going to play that final he should play for Rod Laver. And no, not the "Holy ****! Rod came to watch me again!" style. The " Yes, imma do it for you Rod." style. I mean seriously, the ol' man roots for Roger. It's a little too obvious. I think he watched nearly all of Roger's matches this tournament. And Ken Rosewall. Apparently the guy sent him a letter wishing him well for the AO at the start. Do it for those two.
 

Al Czervik

Hall of Fame
The only thing I can come up with is maybe do the Connors thing against Lendl where you hit deep down the middle all day and don't give him any angles.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
The only thing I can come up with is maybe do the Connors thing against Lendl where you hit deep down the middle all day and don't give him any angles.

Not a bad idea, I think that is a better strategy for Nadal vs Djokovic though actually
 
E

Emperor of Belgrade

Guest
Left handed, so his backhand can't be destroyed by Nadal's CC forehand.
 

geca

Semi-Pro
Line is already fishy from Vegas with Federer as only a SLIGHT underdog not a massive underdog as you say. I think for that reason Federer will win. Vegas knows something.

Anyways, Federer I would like him to serve and volley A LOT. Almost as much as Zverev did against Murray. Don't make this physical.

Vegas also thought Hillary was a lock to win
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
"Tactical or strategic support" is not something that I, a random 4.0 player, can offer the GOAT!

That said, I think agree with most of the posters above. The problem is that matches between these two almost always are played on Rafa's terms. He doesn't let Fed play his game, and that's why the H2H is so horribly lopsided.
Fed doesn't possess the BH to handle the Nadal forehand the way that Djokovic can.

The keys to beating Nadal:
1) Serve like a god (like Rosol did)
2) Return like a god (like Djokovic always does)
3) Demonstrate superb mental toughness (like Dimitrov admirably did in his uphill yet unsuccessful battle last night)

Fed, I fear, is really only capable of one of those against Nadal.

Federer god mode on:

 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
If his baseline game is as crap as it was against Stan there's no strategy to implement because there's none he can pull off aside from have your best serve day and clutch out a few TBs. Against Nadal, probably not happening.
 

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
I like the angled blocked return. He should try to play as quick tennis as possible, especially on serve.

Never wait for the towelling time wasting crap.
 

timnz

Legend
Fed's serve is better than Grigor's and so is his forehand. Plus he doesn't have any interest in grinding with Nadal. IMO, the fast court conditions + a grueling 5 setter today with Grigor give Roger a unique advantage.

I'm saying Roger in 4.
Is the court fast or merely faster ie still slow but just a bit faster than before?
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
If he's really going to play that final he should play for Rod Laver. And no, not the "Holy ****! Rod came to watch me again!" style. The " Yes, imma do it for you Rod." style. I mean seriously, the ol' man roots for Roger. It's a little too obvious. I think he watched nearly all of Roger's matches this tournament. And Ken Rosewall. Apparently the guy sent him a letter wishing him well for the AO at the start. Do it for those two.
god i hope federer keeps his tears in check
 
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