Bartelby
Bionic Poster
As is usual, the argument is that I do not like her arrogance and therefore she must be made to suffer for my enjoyment.
Maria Sharapova current Hall of Fame status?
- Thread starter bigserving
- Start date
MatsPhilander
Legend
Don't really understand his argument-she needed something that has no proven benefit to win all her matches & one presumes to lose them all as well-as if she started taking it a decade earlier then that means she won 4 slams out a possible 41 & lost in 37 of them, which is not a good return. Then she was 'busted' taking something that was totally legal until a few weeks earlier, which by his logic means that WADA must have been sanctioning her 'cheating' for 10 years & helped her make all that money.
MatsPhilander
Legend
Meanwhile he probably fetes uber arrogant/aggressive Serena who has the body of Hulk Hogan, hid in a panic room when a tester came to her house for a sample some years back & after the police came refused to provide a sample which was just accepted rather than being a failure ala Troicki & had a multiple year TUE exemption for banned substances oxycodone, hydromorphone, prednisone, prednisolone and methylprednisolone. Not to say that Serena is more guilty of anything than Maria, but there does seem to be some kind of bias & agenda going on.
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every7
Hall of Fame
Interesting thread.......
IMO Sharapova will get in for the same reasons Agassi and Hingis were admitted even after evidence of criminal drug use came to light.
The positives of On-court performance, iconic status, contribution to the game, career results and general character will be measured against the negative of the use of a drug with no quantifiable performance-enhancing qualities. From that, they will allow her in and excuse the Meldonium fiasco as something that reflected poorly on pretty much everyone in tennis and acknowledge that it was bad, but really the only time she put a foot wrong in terms of career management.
Historically, HoF is fairly lax when it comes to disbarring someone pro/retro-actively on behavioural grounds, so it will be interesting to see how they handle this and also Kafelnikov's likely entry.
Also would be an interesting press conference because the inductions are always very, very media heavy and it's a very pally, collegiate environment. But Sharapova's entry will attract more mainstream press members than normal.
bigserving
Hall of Fame
It is interesting that by comparison, Major League Baseball has the issue with it's career home-run leader, it's single -season home run leader, and it's career hits leader in Barry Bonds and Pete Rose. Bonds along with Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens with 354 wins, and Sammy Sosa may never be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame for their suspected use of PEDs.
None of them ever tested positive or was ever suspended for use.
The Baseball Hall has some shady characters. But the modern voters, so far, have not chosen to follow up a past mistake, with a new mistake i.e. Sharapova in because Tilden is in.
It will be interesting to see how the actual Hall voters view the subject.
None of them ever tested positive or was ever suspended for use.
The Baseball Hall has some shady characters. But the modern voters, so far, have not chosen to follow up a past mistake, with a new mistake i.e. Sharapova in because Tilden is in.
It will be interesting to see how the actual Hall voters view the subject.
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Not at all. But the fact remains that Sharapova deliberately hid her use of meldonium from her team and didn't include it on the anti-doping form because she knew the reasons for taking it were nothing to do with a medical condition, but an aspiration to get a competitive edge over her rivals. If it was all innocent, she wouldn't have hidden it.
I wouldn't get any enjoyment from her 'suffering', but I'd argue that for someone with her resources, simply not getting paid silly money, or being invited to high profile exhibition matches during a doping ban isn't exactly 'suffering' in any meaningful sense. It takes a huge sense of entitlement to see that as a disgraceful slight.
We're talking about the Hall of Fame here. It's all a bit PR stunt in the first place. It if was purely about slams won, then there wouldn't be any need for it, and my opinion is that personality and credibility is a factor. If you read properly (which I know you didn't), you'd see I don't think she should or will be banned forever, however, it is my opinion that a little bit of humility, as yet unseen, would go a long way to rehabilitating her image.
However, good news for the Sharapova stans, because it's all about PR and commercialism, so long as her sponsors can use her image to sell things, her cheating will continue to be overlooked. No need to even pretend to be sorry when you look good on a billboard. And if you think that is suffering, then you need to get out more.
every7
Hall of Fame
Agree, there are a lot of big decisions for HoF coming up.
There's a whole list of players from the last 10-15 years where it going to be really tough to make the decisions.
Interesting that they released those ground rules for a minimum entry requirement a week or so ago. They are preparing for ruling out a whole heap of players imo.
It's a fascinating area for people who are fans of the current game but also recent history of the game late 90's - early 2000s etc etc. Many expected players might not make it. For me that might be better than players who shouldn't be in there sneaking in. It should be very very hard to get in.
In Europe a lot of us don't know much about Baseball or that Hall of Fame, but I know it is a game steeped in history and a lot of the players seem to be more interesting than standard athletes with quite strange personalities and major league baseball also seems to have some unique rules in place that really protect the history of the game in terms of equipment.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
This whole 'hiding' story was debunked in the CAS report. It's just wrong. She did in fact not include it on her form, so that is true. But so what? Meldonium is not a PED and you can't turn it into one by fiat.
The Obama regime pulled out all stops to kick Russia out of the Olympics and Sharapova was 'collateral damage'. Read the front page of your newspaper if you want to know what goes on in global sports.
The Obama regime pulled out all stops to kick Russia out of the Olympics and Sharapova was 'collateral damage'. Read the front page of your newspaper if you want to know what goes on in global sports.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
''Unfair and distasteful'' to Lendl to hit a drop shot serve? Give me a break. Honest question, do you even play? There's nothing unfair about the drop shot serve unless the receiver isn't in ready position yet. Are you going to say a drop shot winner in the middle of a rally that completely surprises the opponent is unfair? Get real.
Mac/Hingis etc are NOT as bad as Maria. If they took some recreational drugs once and a while that is not as bad as a sustained usage of a drug intended to give enhanced performance which has cheated Maria's opponents over several years.
Like I said I don't agree with Court/Tilden being in the HOF but just because there are a few questionable people in there from ages ago doesnt mean that high standards cant be applied now.
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Bartelby
Bionic Poster
WADA also believes in the metaphysical theory that wishing a drug was a PED is just as evil as taking one that is actually a PED.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Let me ask you….if Meldo wasn't a performance enhancer, why did Maria bother taking it for years?? Explain that.
Oh wait…for her ''diabetes''.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
She was originally given a cocktail of things at nineteen when she reported to her treating doctor that she was suffering from recurrent viral illnesses.
He remained her doctor until a year or two before she tested positive and he testified at CAS on her behalf. The doctor for the prosecution found nothing wrong with his treatment.
So this diabetes story is just 'fake news' that you and others keep parroting.
He remained her doctor until a year or two before she tested positive and he testified at CAS on her behalf. The doctor for the prosecution found nothing wrong with his treatment.
So this diabetes story is just 'fake news' that you and others keep parroting.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Fake news? No, you're the one making things up.
Here it is, coming out of her own mouth, 1:50.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
It says exactly what I said she claimed - viral illness. There is a vague reference to indications of diabetes and to family hstory of diabetes.
Nowhere does she state that she has diabetes or that Meldonium was prescribed for diabetes.
You, like others, are just filling in the blanks with your prejudices.
The interview says what CAS found: she took a drug prescribed for viral illnesses that was taken legally for ten years, but then an unnoticed banning of the drug caused inadvertent prohibited usage.
No intention to cheat and no cheating - just an inadvertent breach of the rules - like speeding when you haven't noticed a change in the speed limit.
Nowhere does she state that she has diabetes or that Meldonium was prescribed for diabetes.
You, like others, are just filling in the blanks with your prejudices.
The interview says what CAS found: she took a drug prescribed for viral illnesses that was taken legally for ten years, but then an unnoticed banning of the drug caused inadvertent prohibited usage.
No intention to cheat and no cheating - just an inadvertent breach of the rules - like speeding when you haven't noticed a change in the speed limit.
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MasturB
Legend
Where can I read up about the minimum entry ground rules laid out?
MasturB
Legend
The Baseball Hall of Fame is a very prestigious HOF that isn't immune to hypocrisy. You have guys like Ty Cobb that was a well known racist in there. As well as a known spitballer like Don Sutton. The Tennis Hall of Fame is not voted on by tennis writers, it's voted on by current members of the hall (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).
For a player to get in on the baseball hall of fame, he must get 75% or more from the writers association (basically any journalist that has covered baseball or a baseball team for 10+ years).
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sheffield all never tested positive for PEDs, and some writers have remained consistent and continued to vote for them since we don't have actual proof someone failed a drug test. There are also some writers who will not vote for any alleged steroid player ever based on eye test or whatever came out of the mitchell report + congressional hearings. There are also some writers who do not make their votes public.
For a player to get in on the baseball hall of fame, he must get 75% or more from the writers association (basically any journalist that has covered baseball or a baseball team for 10+ years).
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sheffield all never tested positive for PEDs, and some writers have remained consistent and continued to vote for them since we don't have actual proof someone failed a drug test. There are also some writers who will not vote for any alleged steroid player ever based on eye test or whatever came out of the mitchell report + congressional hearings. There are also some writers who do not make their votes public.
bigserving
Hall of Fame
Well Covfefe then.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
She clearly refers to a tendency/family history of diabetes as a reason for using meldo. Its right there in the video.
Keep fighting the good fight though man. I'm sure she appreciates your vigilance.
Deon Sanders
Legend
All of those guys but Clemens have admitted to doing steroids or did test positive. There is zero doubt. Everyone around Clemens said he did.
Not sure where you get the idea there isnt actual proof. They should rightfully be out of consideration for the hall
Bonds:http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/barry-bonds-perjury-trial-begins-032111
McGwire: http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607
Sosa: http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=4264062
Palmeiro: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/08/01/orioles-palmeiro-suspended-for-steroids.html
Sheffield: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/shea/article/Sheffield-tells-of-steroid-use-rift-with-Bonds-2689594.php
Maria failed a test of that there is no doubt. She is a cheater.
MasturB
Legend
I forgot Palmeiro failed a test and was made an example of after the I have never taken steroids period in front of committee.
McGwire admitted to taking andro which wasn't banned back then I believe.
Bonds was a hall of famer before
Suspected use. He became immortal after.
The point being the others besides Raffy never failed a test if I recall.
Clemens is an interesting story. Didn't Petitte snitch in him after he himself was outed by the trainer or was that Mitchell report.
MatsPhilander
Legend
You really believe serving underarm against an unsuspecting opponent is fair? I see-so taking cocaine & steroids is better than something that has no benefit? Again you seem to be missing the point that Meldonium was 100% legal until January 1st 2016-WADA approved of it, so nobody was cheated, it only became against the rules to take it on January 1st 2016 & it had zero factual basis to become such.
MatsPhilander
Legend
But where would the logic be in her taking something that she knew was now on the banned list? Obviously it was going to show up on her next test. Again she hasn't cheated because Meldonium is of zero benefit unlike chocolate which has proven benefits-think of how many people Federer & his Lindt has cheated.
MatsPhilander
Legend
It appears to be something prescribed in Russia & Ukraine & not the west-seems to be some sort of folklore attached to it, most likely many Asian players take totally worthless herbal medicines that are part of their heritage/culture. Was there the possibility that Sharapova & other athletes were working on the assumption that it could improve performance? Sure. Does it actually improve performance? No. However, drinking coffee or eating chocolate before/during a match does & that has been allowed since 2004. Perhaps you can explain why the Williams sisters were on multiple banned substances for years because a doctor signs a piece of paper saying they can, why Serena hid in a panic room from a drugs tester & then elected not to give a sample.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
Interesting. Isn't WADA touting 'biological passports' so they can test players' samples after the fact and announce violations on substances found that are NOW known to be PEDs? If that's the case, she's out. Her Dad found a chemist who, at least for some length of time, didn't widely distribute this drug; it was only after WADA found a significant number of users in many sports they put 2 and 2 together and realized they'd been duped.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
And you left out 'didn't apply for a TUE'. We all know why - because her team didn't want to let the cat out of the bag that Meldo was a performance enhancer and either have everyone using it or get it banned.
every7
Hall of Fame
@MasturB - Here is a page kind of summarizing some of the new rulings. Sorry, my wording wasn't correct, it's more conditions for automatic nomination, if that makes sense (sorry for my original confusing wording).
Here: https://www.si.com/tennis/2017/05/24/ap-ten-hall-fame-changes
Really interesting stuff imo.
This is fascinating stuff. Even without knowing much about baseball, it does seem to have a huge amount of colourful personalities involved. Maybe because it's a sport where players can be involved until an older age it seems to encourage people with really interesting personalities and slightly more well-rounded than the average jock athlete. Although in golf everyone's old but they are also really boring so maybe it's not that.
I read a great book by the former player Jose Canseco which really keyed me into how rich the mythologies and stories are in baseball. Can you recommend any other interesting biographies on baseball?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
She clearly mentions Meldoninum and refers obliquely to concerns about diabetes, and ECG issues, but firmly and clearly states viral illnesses were the problem.
Meldonium has never been claimed either by her prescribing doctor, or by the manufacturer, or by anyone on the face of the earth, to be a treatment for diabetes.
Read the various legal documents if you want a clearer picture, but stop spreading 'fake news'!
Meldonium has never been claimed either by her prescribing doctor, or by the manufacturer, or by anyone on the face of the earth, to be a treatment for diabetes.
Read the various legal documents if you want a clearer picture, but stop spreading 'fake news'!
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Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The Americans wanted a drug to prosecute their political campaign against Russia and USADA did one piece of research that showed East Europeans take Mildronate thinking it beneficial.
On that basis and that basis alone they banned the drug and then a whole series of sports, notably tennis, made no effort whatsoever to communicate this to the athletes concerned.
And thus the political trap was set waiting for the innocent to fall in, and outside of a few sports which vigourously informed their athletes, fall they did.
And then the trumpets blared: 'All Russians are cheats, even Sharapova, kick them out of the Olympics'.! And the campaign against Russia is ongoing, as we can see from the front page of the newspapers.
On that basis and that basis alone they banned the drug and then a whole series of sports, notably tennis, made no effort whatsoever to communicate this to the athletes concerned.
And thus the political trap was set waiting for the innocent to fall in, and outside of a few sports which vigourously informed their athletes, fall they did.
And then the trumpets blared: 'All Russians are cheats, even Sharapova, kick them out of the Olympics'.! And the campaign against Russia is ongoing, as we can see from the front page of the newspapers.
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bigserving
Hall of Fame
So those of you that do not believe that meldonium is performance enhancing, you folks are expecting her results to be along the same lines of before she was suspended, right?
Would your perspective of the situation and her accomplishments change if, say while testing clean, she were to never break in the top ten player rankings again?
Would your perspective of the situation and her accomplishments change if, say while testing clean, she were to never break in the top ten player rankings again?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
By the time she gets back in match-hardened form she will have been out of the game for somewhere between eighteen months and two years, so expecting a return to peak Sharapova is not really plausible.
The fact is that there are other athletes one can track in this regard, but no reliable conclusions could be drawn. It's best to proceed from pharmacology and that says it is not a PED.
The fact is that there are other athletes one can track in this regard, but no reliable conclusions could be drawn. It's best to proceed from pharmacology and that says it is not a PED.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Did you not read my previous reply to you? Post #98
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
Indeed. She screwed up by admitting it. Getting out ahead of it was never going to allow her to wash her hands of something as damaging as doping allegations. She should have totally denied taking it after the date of banning and put it on WADA to prove that she had.
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
Unless there is a certainty of you being found guilty for something or there is a good plea deal on the table, you should deny everything.
The story of another (recently paroled) sports star proves that, if nothing else.
The story of another (recently paroled) sports star proves that, if nothing else.
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
As for whether the Hall of Fame accepts Pova in the future, that would depend on how tough they want to be seen to be on doping. As others have said there is not much precedent for this in tennis.
I personally think that she should be inducted. Even though she has broken the WADA rules, it was after she won the titles.
I personally think that she should be inducted. Even though she has broken the WADA rules, it was after she won the titles.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
The Hall of Fame is a pointless endeavour.
Which means that it can be used to whatever end.
Which means that it can be used to whatever end.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
This did occur to me as well, but it doesn't work if the levels of the substance were at a level indicating recent usage.
WADA ultimately set some sort of level of acceptable presence of the substance in the body and it is hard to believe she would have been anywhere near under it.
But you are still right about the admission being somewhat premature given that WADA completely and utterly stuffed up the issue of the excretion rate of the drug.
WADA ultimately set some sort of level of acceptable presence of the substance in the body and it is hard to believe she would have been anywhere near under it.
But you are still right about the admission being somewhat premature given that WADA completely and utterly stuffed up the issue of the excretion rate of the drug.
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
I was more thinking that her lawyers could have argued the science of its metabolism was shaky. In the hope of creating enough plausibility for the CAS to overturn her ban - not for WADA to let her off.
Obviously WADA for their part would be determined to nail her to make an example of her and any reprieve would have to come from a judge.
That WADA's actions here were politically motivated, on the other hand, is not at all clear to me. I still think that's rather cynical. Possible, but cynical.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The ITF buys itself 'independent legal eagles' from the London bar and they make the initial determination, supposedly independently of those that pay them.
As many have pointed out, their judgement was so riddled with inconsistencies as to be incoherent.
Sharapova detractors love to quote the parts where they essentially accuse her of intentionally cheating and miss the point that their actual finding rejects that position.
You can't get two years if you intentionally cheat.
If the material is present in levels beyond that determined by WADA then you are doomed at that point. The hearing does not really look at this question. It accepts it as a given, which is what it did.
At the hearing, moreover, it would be a high risk strategy to do anything other than truthful about intake so the whole hearing was really only about intentional cheating.
The excretion rate fiasco was a possible argument for greater leniency of sentencing on appeal at CAS, but twelve months was always the minimum.
As many have pointed out, their judgement was so riddled with inconsistencies as to be incoherent.
Sharapova detractors love to quote the parts where they essentially accuse her of intentionally cheating and miss the point that their actual finding rejects that position.
You can't get two years if you intentionally cheat.
If the material is present in levels beyond that determined by WADA then you are doomed at that point. The hearing does not really look at this question. It accepts it as a given, which is what it did.
At the hearing, moreover, it would be a high risk strategy to do anything other than truthful about intake so the whole hearing was really only about intentional cheating.
The excretion rate fiasco was a possible argument for greater leniency of sentencing on appeal at CAS, but twelve months was always the minimum.
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D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
I'm not suggesting the case against her is watertight or that everyone is acting in good faith here necessarily. What I do think is that it's complicated and that we don't have all the facts.
I've said before that I would personally err on the side of accepting WADA's decisions, generally speaking. Obviously some folks disagree and I'm not saying that that's outright wrong or irrational. There's an argument there.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
WADA's only decision was to ban Meldonium and then to set a minimum tolerated level to cope with the excretion rate issue.
This was a political decision because the body that runs WADA is a political body stacked with governmental representatives, including America's loyal ally Australia.
It's also a political decision at another level.
This was a political decision because the body that runs WADA is a political body stacked with governmental representatives, including America's loyal ally Australia.
It's also a political decision at another level.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
bigserving
Hall of Fame
I did read it and my direct response to that would be that Federer, Venus, and Serena, are all significantly older than Sharapova and have posted great results….this year. Nadal, is about her age and has done the same. Venus is significantly older and has got to two major finals, with an autoimmune disease. Grand Slam level expectations for someone Maria's age, these days, is not outside the realm of possibility, or expectation for her. Especially with Serena being out, the door is wide open.
She is 30 now and has had a year and a half off to recover, rest, heal, train, and practice the weaker parts of her game. An argument could easily be made that she might be expected to be better than ever in the short term.
My post was more directed toward that faction in this thread who's position is that meldonium is not performance enhancing. That faction, should expect her results to be better than ever with the rest and training that the time off has granted her?
Or, the whole lot of you are just making pre-excuses for the scenario that she does not perform up to expectations, to not blame it on doping.
I am still taking a wait and see approach. I have no preset expectations on what her performance would have to be in order for me to support her induction.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
She was banned from playing tennis, not having time off for recovery and rest!
Given Meldonium has no effect, I would argue that had she not been banned her play would have remained where it was.
Being rubbed out of the game for such a long period of time creates too many variables.
If you are really interested there were Meldonium users in other sports who escaped a ban due to low levels, so you could track their before and after progress.
I am not interested as there is no pharmacology evidence that it is a PED and WADA never claimed to have any. They banned it officially just due to 'intention to use'.
In other words, if they did a survey that discovered that coffee was taken by athletes with the intention to improve performance WADA would be within its powers to ban coffee.
Given Meldonium has no effect, I would argue that had she not been banned her play would have remained where it was.
Being rubbed out of the game for such a long period of time creates too many variables.
If you are really interested there were Meldonium users in other sports who escaped a ban due to low levels, so you could track their before and after progress.
I am not interested as there is no pharmacology evidence that it is a PED and WADA never claimed to have any. They banned it officially just due to 'intention to use'.
In other words, if they did a survey that discovered that coffee was taken by athletes with the intention to improve performance WADA would be within its powers to ban coffee.
bigserving
Hall of Fame
Maria won Wimbledon at 17 beating Serena in straight sets in the final.
She's a Hall Of Famer for sure.
At age 28, she said that she had been using for ten years.
When people talk about time, we always use round, ball-park numbers. When she was 28, she said that she had been using meldo for "ten years." That "ten years," may have actually been ten years, nine months, and two weeks. Or, nine years, eight months, and three weeks. Or any number in between or near that. Either way, she admitted that she began using near the time that she won Wimbledon.
It seems odd to me that somebody would win Wimbledon clean, then begin using a PED. I think that she began to use, won Wimbledon, kept juicing, and never looked back.
MatsPhilander
Legend
Yep, she came back & in her first tournament after a year of no competitive tennis beat world number 36 Vinci, world number 43 Makarova & Kontaveit in straight sets, before losing to Mladenovic in a tight three setter. You really think she will be unable to be in the top ten again? The top two don't even have one slam between them.
MatsPhilander
Legend
It is totally irrelevant when she started using it, because she did so with the full support of WADA who deemed it legal until January 1st 2016. It isn't a PED-chocolate is & used to be banned, so why don't you call Halep a doper?
