augustobt
Legend
A post on 12th page is the first thing you saw in the discussion? Weird reading habits, I must say.
Tennis writer exposes blatant favoritism and conflicts of interest in Australia Open
- Thread starter Elektra
- Start date
Sander001
Hall of Fame
It's weird to see what the latest thing people are talking about is?
augustobt
Legend
Check a discussion from it's post-end rather than it's beginning? Totally weird.
The content of the article it's already been discussed. The own author, who's a self proclaimed tennis writer and expert even said that it's all conjecture. If it's not based on facts or have no evidence whatsoever, it's definitely valid look for the integrity of the one who writes about it and the reasons to do so. A brief check and we found out that the guy is an avid Federer hater. Expected, as such conjecture could've only came from one.
Sander001
Hall of Fame
No, it's not weird to check the latest conversation. That's what the New Posts button is there for.
Ad hominem attacks are still trash, no matter how much you try to rationalize it.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Ad hominem attacks are attacks directed to one's person and not to one's judgements.
If judgements are shown to be systematically biased or otherwise impaired, then to criticise the work of an author as a whole is not an ad hominem attack.
A tennis writer needs to show a great degree of impartiality and objectivity, so if evidence suggests otherwise then this also is not an ad hominem attack.
We are dealing with opinion here, and with opinion about matters that aren't really philosophical or scientific in nature, so rationality is not a key to the success of an opinion.
Interesting opinions are usually by authors with a track-record of good judgement. I can't see that this author fits the bill.
If judgements are shown to be systematically biased or otherwise impaired, then to criticise the work of an author as a whole is not an ad hominem attack.
A tennis writer needs to show a great degree of impartiality and objectivity, so if evidence suggests otherwise then this also is not an ad hominem attack.
We are dealing with opinion here, and with opinion about matters that aren't really philosophical or scientific in nature, so rationality is not a key to the success of an opinion.
Interesting opinions are usually by authors with a track-record of good judgement. I can't see that this author fits the bill.
Sander001
Hall of Fame
You are 100% wrong. The only thing you've made clear is that you don't even know why ad hominems are false arguments to begin with.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
I am right and you are wrong. The writer is not even making an argument. He is making accusations with no evidence, only speculation. He is a conspiracy theorist.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Preach it.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
It's really getting annoying. I got directed to another article by someone with a similar conspiracy theory (I won't link as I don't want to award it further publicity) who bases their whole case on the fact that Cilic wasn't told about the possibility of the match being indoors. I've pointed out in the comments that this is a clear error but no doubt the existence of actual facts will be treated as another facet of the pro -Federer universe.
It's so depressing that people think their fandom entitles them to turn off their rational brains in this way. Of course tennis itself is of trivial importance. But this whole idea that we are entitled to have our opinions respected even if we have no evidence or rational basis for what we are saying is what's giving us the politics we have. How do we have proper debate in this atmosphere?
Meles
Bionic Poster
Blatant Fraudualism and Conflict of Interest.
Federer appears to be in recovery until IW; he was very beatable if someone gave him a physical match, but instead both Chung and Cilic just started blasting balls long. Cilic because he is a major choker. Chung blisters.
zalive
Hall of Fame
Preach it.
Greg Rusedski said it (almost) all in his tweet, he understood while it was happening:
Greg Rusedski @GregRusedski1 Jan 28
One guy warms up indoors, other warms up outdoors before the finals. Roof is closed.
I don't see a single valid excuse why organizers made a late decision whether roof would be closed or not. Both players confirmed it was announced to them that it was a possibility. However, one chose to prepare indoors, the other chose to prepare outdoors...then organizers decide to close the roof. Marin had to send racquets for restringing during the first set as tensions set were not valid for much colder conditions indoors, lost first two serving games and consequentially a set in the meantime. All these are facts.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
Very interesting.
You seem to be linking stats to speed of court, which I think is 100% solid, if we have correct data.
I know, for instance, that there are roughly three broad levels:
clay
HCs
grass
It's more complicated than that, but at least it's a start.
Game% if highest on clay, lowest on grass. Total games. If the average ATG wins57-58% of games on grass, it goes up as much as 5% on clay, and this is true for the whole OE. HCs are in the middle.
Unfortunately the ATP divides data among these three categories, so we can't see the difference in these same stats from one event to the next. We have to guess, or try to extrapolate from stats, and unfortunately so many of these stats are often wrong.
Greg Rusedski said it (almost) all in his tweet, he understood while it was happening:
Greg Rusedski @GregRusedski1 Jan 28
One guy warms up indoors, other warms up outdoors before the finals. Roof is closed.This is so wrong for a GS final which is an outdoor event, which means you should have to deal with the elements. So far one sided. I hope Cilic can get back into the match.
I don't see a single valid excuse why organizers made a late decision whether roof would be closed or not. Both players confirmed it was announced to them that it was a possibility. However, one chose to prepare indoors, the other chose to prepare outdoors...then organizers decide to close the roof. Marin had to send racquets for restringing during the first set as tensions set were not valid for much colder conditions indoors, lost first two serving games and consequentially a set in the meantime. All these are facts.
Obviously, you have an agenda. I see you skimmed over the part where it said one chose indoors, the other outdoors. So, Cilic had a choice. Both players knew there was a possibility the match would be indoors. Cilic wanted to keep the same routine. Dunno what is so difficult to understand.
zalive
Hall of Fame
Obviously, you have an agenda. I see you skimmed over the part where it said one chose indoors, the other outdoors. So, Cilic had a choice. Both players knew there was a possibility the match would be indoors. Cilic wanted to keep the same routine. Dunno what is so difficult to understand.
Obviously it is hard to understand when you can act that you don't. What was exactly Marin's choice...to guess which the organizer's decision will be?
Though I think I see now what you don't understand. You cannot prepare for both conditions. You have to take a pick.
Do you know the mixed doubles was played indoors? Was it because of Federer? You guys are just bitter because Federer won, that's all this is. Was Wimbledon indoors?
Was AO 2017 indoors?
zalive
Hall of Fame
You obviously choose to close eyes to facts, and it's not hard to guess it is purely because of rooting for Federer.
Tell me...what was the reason why organizers didn't made the decision earlier to allow both players to prepare for conditions accordingly?
Facts: they left the decision open. Then officially made it at 7 pm local time. They made a choice which favoured the player who prepared indoors and made disadvantage to the other finalist who prepared outdoors.
Indoors choice per se is not a problem at all, it's almost irrelevant. It's decision's timing which is problematic.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
Was it really so difficult for Marin to string some of his rackets for indoors and some for outdoors? He seems to have been given the same information as Federer but acted as if the match would definitely be outdoors. I would get this conspiracy theory if Cilic was claiming he hadn't been told of the possibility of indoor play, but he can hardly blame others if he was given the info but didn't choose to act on it.
My guess is that the organisers panicked after the Halep collapse and didn't want the bad publicity if either Federer or Cilic had been similarly affected.
Someone asked on twitter if Federer's rackets were restrung for indoors. His stringers said no. Federer's rackets were strung at 2 pm. The stringer said Federer doesn't fuss too much about temps and conditions.
Another reason why he's the GOAT.
Did you see the short clip of BJK talking about Federer? She said "He's so versatile.He's so adaptable. He loves pressure. He's the best ever, it's not even close. Roger, he's the best...Ever."
zalive
Hall of Fame
Tell me: why they didn't made the final decision earlier in the day? Why leaving it to 7 pm?
To answer, perhaps possible to split tension setting to outdoors and indoors set, then restring the rest the last minute. However you cannot get accustomed to playing both different sets. One of purposes of practice session prior to match is to get accustomed to strung racquet under playing conditions. Any player needed to take a pick. Roger picked indoors, Marin outdoors.
But organizers for sure knew which one picked which conditions. Which raises the question above: why creating this situation by leaving the decision late?
Do you see the answer? The obvious decision made by orgnanizers was...to make a late decision. This is what created the situation.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
Someone asked on twitter if Federer's rackets were restrung for indoors. His stringers said no. Federer's rackets were strung at 2 pm. The stringer said Federer doesn't fuss too much about temps and conditions.
Another reason why he's the GOAT.
Ah, I saw that tweet but couldn't find it again . Not playing tennis myself I don't really know how important the conditions of the warm up are but does it really make so much difference if it takes place indoors or outdoors? From what I could gather from Cilic's press conference he wanted to warm up on the same court as he'd used all tournament which is understandable. It's not even clear that if he had known for certain the match was indoors that he would have changed his routine.
zalive
Hall of Fame
Cilic attacks with flatter balls. Flat style attackers are more sensitive to tension as their margin of error is smaller.
Oh yeah, much info I have came from the professional stringer who has GS stringing experience in the past. He knows the routine of pros. He said stringing the last minute is not a problem since it can be done virtually within minutes, with many stringers on disposition for the finals. Adjusting to conditions is what requires a practice session, this is where the problem is. Practice session under playing conditions, with racquets strung the way you will use them at the match, makes a difference.
Oh yeah, much info I have came from the professional stringer who has GS stringing experience in the past. He knows the routine of pros. He said stringing the last minute is not a problem since it can be done virtually within minutes, with many stringers on disposition for the finals. Adjusting to conditions is what requires a practice session, this is where the problem is. Practice session under playing conditions, with racquets strung the way you will use them at the match, makes a difference.
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Fedforever
Hall of Fame
But in that case the decision could just as easily have worked against Federer. If they thought that playing indoors was going to favour him generally then the obvious thing to do was to make the decision earlier.
We are beating a dead horse. The conspiracy theorists are in full flow. You know, if this was 2017 it would make much sense. Federer won this same tournament after a six-month break with a tougher draw. But somehow in 2018, the #roofers think the organizers rigged it for him? Hilarious stuff.
zalive
Hall of Fame
Could, but didn't, we know in which favour it went. But in one I agree; whatever the late decision was, in given circumstances it would be made unfair to one of players.
So...why making a late decision? Why allowing this to happen?
AO organizers are not amateurs. They are not unaware of what picking a wrong choice means to a player. Is this worth of AO finals match?
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
Here's some tweets from Brad Gilbert and Priority 1
https://twitter.com/bgtennisnation/status/957712278895276032
Now Priority 1 are saying that it is possible for a racket to be restrung during a match by the on court stringers. So at 2pm Marin could get some of his rackets strung for indoors and some for outdoors. At 7pm when he hears the news he gets his private stringers to redo the ones strung for outdoors just in case he needs them during the match. I don't understand why, having been told a decision was going to be made just before the match started, that Marin was not ready for the indoor scenario.
https://twitter.com/bgtennisnation/status/957712278895276032
Now Priority 1 are saying that it is possible for a racket to be restrung during a match by the on court stringers. So at 2pm Marin could get some of his rackets strung for indoors and some for outdoors. At 7pm when he hears the news he gets his private stringers to redo the ones strung for outdoors just in case he needs them during the match. I don't understand why, having been told a decision was going to be made just before the match started, that Marin was not ready for the indoor scenario.
zalive
Hall of Fame
I added it later to my post above, I was told the same by my stringer who has some GS experience. Stringing is not a problem, it can be done virtually within minutes, during the match. That's what happened. Marin has sent some of his racquets to restringing during the match.
Adjusting to racquets is problem, it requires a practice session under similar conditions. Marin has spent the first set as a practice.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
They probably should have made the decision earlier. However if they had done so and then conditions changed people would have said that the decision was made to favour Federer and not because conditions warranted it.
Ironically, I've said quite a few times that I find the whole tie-in between the AO and US Open and Team 8 a little cosy. Not because I think Fed will get favourable treatment from it (more than what he gets as being the crowd favourite anyway) but because I don't think the tournaments should be effectively entangling themselves in what could be seen as Federer's business interests. But the conspiracy theory about the roof just seems far too convoluted to me - how could they be sure that Cilic wouldn't have collapsed in the heat from playing outdoors?
merlinpinpin
Hall of Fame
So, you're basically saying that Cilic was unprofessional in that he refused to practice with the closed roof, prefering to keep to his usual routine?
zalive
Hall of Fame
People can say whatever they will, however the way they decided (to decide it late) made the thing objectively unfair.
Again, I don't object indoor conditions. The choice of indoors conditions has its arguments for making it. The decision timing wasn't.
But if we talk about closing the roof, how the organizers can explain the hypocricy of not closing the roof during many daytime matches, but choosing to do it at the night match?
Evening/night match is not particularly risky, while daytime matches were horrid. Organizers didn't care much for them.
One more detail. Marin applauded to everyone during the ceremony, except to Craig Tiley.
zalive
Hall of Fame
So, you're basically saying that Cilic was unprofessional in that he refused to practice with the closed roof, prefering to keep to his usual routine?
I don't answer to trolling, sorry.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
The obvious answer seems to be to change the timing of the tournament - they had all the same issues in 2014. If the temperatures are so extreme (and this will get worse) obvious answer is to play later in the year.
zagor
Bionic Poster
You don't watch Marin much, do you? He's nearly always nervous at the start of the match then slowly settles in and starts serving better. Nadal, Kyle Edmund and Fed all got their chances at the start but Nadal and Fed took advantage while Kyle unsurprisingly didn't.
Furthemore he's so superstitious then even if he had a confirmed information that they were going to play indoors it's still doubftufl whether he would have changed his training routine.
zagor
Bionic Poster
So, you're basically saying that Cilic was unprofessional in that he refused to practice with the closed roof, prefering to keep to his usual routine?
That's not unprofessional, that's being supestitious. Many tennis players fall into that category.
LOL. The guy even said it. "I practiced on the same court, I played on the same court, I didn't want to change anything."
zagor
Bionic Poster
Sometimes they even eat the same meal in the same restourant, don't want to change clothes or even shave. They're just a superstitious lot.
I mean let's be honest here, we both know that neither TW nor the Twitter brigade would give a damn thing about roof in the final if Fed wasn't in it and most importantly if he didn't win.
Just watch if AO starts using the roof more next year to protect the players (because of the Halep incident), if Fed is still a contender you'll be hearing non-stop whining about how AO is supposed to be an outdoor tennis tournament and how they're turning it into indoor tourney to hand 37 year old Fed the title (I can't stress how embarrassing is that people are coming up with excuses for losing to a guy who should be competing on the seniour tour).
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
Absolutely. If the match had been played outdoors and Federer had won we'd all now be hearing how the roof should have been closed and the fact it wasn't was obviously designed to help him.
By all means let the organizers look at whether the conditions for using the roof should be lowered, whether the tournament should be held later, who should play the day matches, whatever. But let's keep that separate from the conspiracy theories.
Let's be honest. If it wasn't the roof, it would have been something else. It's amazing considering how Federer won the tournament last year. The folks on here are okay, unlike on twitter where the crazies are out on full force.
I really hope these tournaments don't give in to all the whining and bullying because that's just what it is.
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
Well then why make comparisons with surfaces when theres a massive gulf in the % of matches played?
. Exactly, dumb logic.
zalive
Hall of Fame
It was not just serves, his baseline shots were flying long in the first set.
No one says that first set would not go to Federer either way, however what's different is why it happens and how one is emotionally and psychologically prepared for the scenario. Really easy if you put yourself in his shoes. Racquet feels different, you're not feeling it, balls go long, serve is not working, and you know you're beating yourself because you don't feel the racquet well. It's not the same as usual entering slower into the match,
We know Marin, but he was riding at a higher confidence during this AO than usual, and he was playing much better tennis at the tournament than his average. Both was connected, he felt good because he was playing well. I personally thought he had a good chance in finals match this time as his game was strong. Inside outs he was making throughout the tournaments were insanely good, from both wings. It's not his standard game, it was significantly better and represented a big weapon for the finals.
However Marin didn't react well to BH slices on his serving games, once Federer started to do it (in the middle of the third set I think). In pressure to keep initiative and attacking he presented Roger with some easy points by BH UEs, which cost him being broken twice and directly losing a third set. So if topspin baseline game eventually went Marin's way, even under circumstances how they went, I'm not sure would it be any different in a 'normal' match. Marin has something to work on if he trully wishes to make one additional step in quality. Not impossible, Federer is making his full technical and tactical potential from last year, so it's quite possible for Marin to step up in quality regarding few elements. Includingh his serve. The deicision to take more time and not rush it, I think it's grear for him. Teaches him patience and it might help him raise his first serve in %.
I don't think he'd chose outdoor if decision was made early, but we cannot know for sure. Would be insane. However in circumstances Marin mentioned routine for this AO being the reason for picking outdoors prep, however it might be superstition as well being decisive to pick outdoors in given circumstances, sounds quite possible.
Except there wouldn't be any good argument to support this.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
fedtennisphan
Hall of Fame
This thread is still going because we all know that Nadal and Djokovic fans did not want Federer to win because players stand to lose with Federer’s win. Their fanboys will do anything to try make sure that either player is mentioned with Federer. That can’t happen if Federer continues to distance himself away from Nadal and Djokovic.
fedtennisphan
Hall of Fame
We all know where the moaning is coming is from. Which two players are desperate to be mentioned in the same vain as Federer?
Tennis_Hands
Banned
What, you mean like here:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/era-of-the-atg-3.609702/
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Blatant Fraudualism and Conflict of Interest.
Your first post in this thread was funny. Sad to say the rest of them have gone downhill in a major way from there.
zalive
Hall of Fame
Well not me, I don't like much either Novak or Rafa, Roger is ok to me. I'm Marin's fan being his compatriot.
Prior to finals match I thought if it goes either well, there's something good in it, as I'm glad he gets his 20th GS.
However I'd prefer if he made it in completely fair circumstances, without organizer making certain decisions which favoured Roger. I think Roger either didn't want it like this. Though he probably appreciated not to have to play daytime matches lol. But hey. Except for Roger's main rivals fans, I think majority of spectators still thinks it's actually a good thing for the best players to receive a 'positive discrimination' treatment, instead of equality.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
http://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis...d/news-story/ba6cabafdd3fd772f7547cc9ee2d708d
ain't just on twitter...
ain't just on twitter...
augustobt
Legend
This is an ridiculous logic. If we follow it, we'd never be able to compare anything. Come on, this is plain stupid.Well then why make comparisons with surfaces when theres a massive gulf in the % of matches played?
tenisdecente
Hall of Fame
@zalive, I am not sure if someone told you this, but the organizers wait until the last minute because the wet bulb or whatever it is called was over the limit allowed just before the match was going to start - that is the reason the roof was closed.
The rest of stuff are under Cilic control, he did not re-strung his racquets, he did not want to warmup/practice indoors, those were his choices and maybe at the end paid a price for them. And as zagor said, I am more than sure that some superstitious issue was present here.
And in the end, this discussion is completely rubbish since indoors conditions favours a flat hitter like Cilic more than Federer. Federer of course is a great indoor player if not the best of the era, but Cilic is no mug/scrub at all indoors. So in the worst scenario it was a slight benefit for Marin or a benefit for both more or less the same
I am also inclined to think that Halep's debacle the day before had something to do in the decision to close the roof, specially since that day was not even remotely close to the heat/humidity combo for the final's day. Also, you want to give the crowd a comfortable and decent experience, and not a microwave oven one watching tennis. I am not sure if those are things you have in mind, but the organizers definitely consider
The rest of stuff are under Cilic control, he did not re-strung his racquets, he did not want to warmup/practice indoors, those were his choices and maybe at the end paid a price for them. And as zagor said, I am more than sure that some superstitious issue was present here.
And in the end, this discussion is completely rubbish since indoors conditions favours a flat hitter like Cilic more than Federer. Federer of course is a great indoor player if not the best of the era, but Cilic is no mug/scrub at all indoors. So in the worst scenario it was a slight benefit for Marin or a benefit for both more or less the same
I am also inclined to think that Halep's debacle the day before had something to do in the decision to close the roof, specially since that day was not even remotely close to the heat/humidity combo for the final's day. Also, you want to give the crowd a comfortable and decent experience, and not a microwave oven one watching tennis. I am not sure if those are things you have in mind, but the organizers definitely consider
fedtennisphan
Hall of Fame
We all know there are interested parties that wanted Federer to lose because their fav will evidently will be left behind in the record books.
