MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
and by these posts im not trying to undermine junior tennis, they are really good but 4.5 is also very strong as well, dependent on who it is
JRs vs Adults
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I'm sorry, I'm not sure what these examples mean. Are you saying that you are beating these players _now_? The second link does not point to any particular player....
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MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
yeah i am beating all but one now as a 4.5 when they were 4 stars
https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=572231
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Deleted member 23235
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according to jolly’s observations not accurate conversion..., but some variables:
* is the ntrp achieved via singles only?
* does usta adjust ntrp frequently to normalize the distribution curve (to maximize participation in leagues at all levels == $$)
* self rated?
I know a bunch of 4.5C dubs only players that would get rocked by high 4.0 singles players (especially the grinder variety) - mainly because the 4.5 doesn’t have wheels anymore but can play dubs really well only covering half the court.
these days I ignore ntrp, and just look at utr. more accurate when comparing folks approximate levels
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mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Matt has been playing men’s open singles, too. And beating the juniors he’s drawn but I think they are 2 star.
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mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Sorry. Nothing against shroud but there’s no way he’s anywhere close to 4.5. 4.5s can hit and move pretty well. Shroud’s movement and strokes...not 4.5.
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My hitting partner utr 13 now compeeting in itf +40 with a high ranking, used to play on the national team and played Davis Cup, so a really good player. I of cause dont stand a chance as a 5.0 (perhaps strong 4.5 is more realistic) player, cant even hang in when we rally, if he turns up the heat.
He is loosing by a margin to the very best junior 16 years old.
Cheers, Toby
He is loosing by a margin to the very best junior 16 years old.
Cheers, Toby
so let's see what you are saying here:
If I understand your posts you are saying that _now_ in 2018 you are beating this player https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=652462 (4 star), and you are using that as an argument that a good 4.5 NTRP player should beat an 18 yr 4 star player. But he _used to be_ 4 star player back in 2013, which is almost 6 years ago. While he appears to be playing some tennis still, he is probably not as good as he was in 2013. I'll have to reject that argument.......
Then you are claiming that with this player https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=572231 you used _beat him all the time growing up but now I lose competitively_. Ok, you are probably what 3-5 years older? So you used to beat him as let's say 18 yr old when he was 14 yr old? or when you were 16 and he was 12? Hmm, not sure I can accept that argument either...... (it also appears he plays for UPenn now and not NYU, maybe I have a wrong player?)
the third player, https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=672078, there's very little that can be learned from googling, his profile does not claim he used to be 4 star/Blue Chip - so no judgment can be made here.
The fourth player, https://www.myutr.com/profiles/77183, is UTR 11.72. You said yourself you got beat badly in the first set, and lost the second too. And yet you originally claimed that a good 4.5 player (i.e. like yourself) should smoke a 3/4 star 18 yr - and as a quick search shows such 3/4 star 18 yr old is going to be like 11.90 and higher. So to recap - you lost convincingly to 11.72 UTR but you would smoke 11.90. Yap, makes sense
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Tw 4.5 can beat D1 top 6 easily apparently. Maybe all you club team players in college should of tried out for the varsity team at UPenn and USC, UCLA Instead of the club team. Who would of guessed all the best players are actually not on the UCLA team but actually on the tennis club team. Do they give full scholarships for club tennis instead of the half scholarships the varsity team seems to dole out?
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
[QUOTE="MarinaHighTennis, post:
UTR:
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/77183 just lost in a men's open doubles semis to him; first set i got creamed but second set was a tiebreaker
[/QUOTE]
You are quoting doubles results? You didn't almost beat him. It was doubles. Jesus. This place. People say I played a 5.5 and almost won. But fail to mention it was doubles and the opponents partner had a wooden leg.
UTR:
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/77183 just lost in a men's open doubles semis to him; first set i got creamed but second set was a tiebreaker
[/QUOTE]
You are quoting doubles results? You didn't almost beat him. It was doubles. Jesus. This place. People say I played a 5.5 and almost won. But fail to mention it was doubles and the opponents partner had a wooden leg.
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rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
The amount of mental gymnastics to justify a mythical tennis level is beyond my comprehension. You know what will work better? Go play some ATP qualifier. Or Itf matches. Get back to us how you beat this and that. Not some kids when they were 12.
Singles. Not doubles.
Singles. Not doubles.
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Deleted member 23235
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hehe, i played one the guys from upenn last xmas break... was a joke... had to play half court vs. full, but he was still hitting the racquet out of my hands.
and his serve was unreturnable by me...
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
5.0 Appeal only bc my team took me to nationals for club tennis so its automatic but then after playing 4.5 and losing legitly, I would say I truly am 4.5you did say you’re a 5.0 appeal...
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yes, as your self-reported records of "20-4 record in 4.5 & 2-1 in 5.0" clearly indicates
[as stated here]
FiReFTW
Legend
yes, as your self-reported records of "20-4 record in 4.5 & 2-1 in 5.0" clearly indicates
Thats some strong detective work
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Yeah all these former D1 players and former club tennis players at 4.5 in SoCal can just drive over to the USC courts and beat any of the freshmen on team. Or beat any 5 star or blue chip recruit coming onto the Cal or UCLA team.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
club players can give them good matches and might beat some. They usually have 4/5 stars who choose school over tennis but still wanna compete for fun.
MASON ZISETTE MEMORIAL CUP Start Date: 11/30/2017 End Date: 12/3/2017
Men's Open Singles (Draw Line - 42)
16(3) Keegan Smith (NCAA UCLA) d. Alex Gaal (Club Tennis) 7-6; 6-1
32Alex Gaal d. Nikolas Tempereau 6-1; 6-0
$$ Lakewood Open, NTRP & Senior Tournament $$Start Date: 7/5/2018 End Date: 7/9/2018
Men's Open Singles (Draw Line - 3)
16(1) Philip Bester (ATP high 225) d. Derek Lin (club tennis) 6-2; 7-5
32 Derek Lin (club tennis) d. Gilbert Chung (NCAA UCR) 1-6; 6-2; 11-9
Costa Mesa Tennis Center Wildcard TournamentStart Date: 8/16/2018 End Date: 8/19/2018
Men's Open Singles (Draw Line - 57)
SF(1) Jacob Brumm d. (10) Mason Hansen (club tennis) 6-2; 7-5
Q(10) Mason Hansen d. Michael Vergara 6-3; 6-4
16(10) Mason Hansen d. (8) Aditya Gupta 2-6; 7-5; 6-2
64(10) Mason Hansen d. Jonathan Yaffe 6-2; 6-2
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MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
that record is 21-10 now in 4.5yes, as your self-reported records of "20-4 record in 4.5 & 2-1 in 5.0" clearly indicates
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Deleted member 23235
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hehe, pretty good.
at columbia, i've chatted with the club players there... they ranged from 4.5-5.5, but the team players were 6.0+
the folks i spoke to (the 5.5's) said they could keep it competitive with the worst person on the team (top players were untouchable), but the team players (even the worst one) all had another gear they could go to... making beating them seem close, but really a mile away.
guessing the same thing your'e seeing?
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, the scoreline doesn’t always tell the true story.
I was at Wimbledon ~5 years ago watching dogopolov vs groth in the 1st round. The match went to a 5th set but it always felt like dogopolov was in complete control of the match. The outcome was really never in question. Going by the scoreline, it sure seemed close, but as a spectator watching the action, groth was redlining while dogopolov was just toying with him.
FiReFTW
Legend
Cuz tennis scores are weird.
Someone can dominate most games easily but have a few mistakes in a game or two and win 6:2
Meanwhile two can be extremely even and deuce in every game and many turns and advantages but 1 player somehow manages to squeze that extra point every game and win 6:0 when the two were almost even.
Its pretty silly if you think about it.
In tie breaker you clearly see points won, but judging by games and sets its extremely hard to judge how tight the match was or wasnt.
Thats also why alot of times you see silly scores when two pros play like 6:1 1:6 6:4 1:6 7:5
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Goes even beyond looking simply at points won. I have a strong 4.5 friend who plays his 4.0 friend. My 4.5 friend knows his 4.0 friend can’t hurt him. When they play, he lets his friend win points and games to keep the scoreline looking respectable so as not to destroy his ego and confidence. As a result, the 4.0 guy honestly thinks he’s getting close to beating my 4.5 friend. In reality, it’s just never going to happen.
As @nytennisaddict said, some of these guys have a few more gears they can kick into. While the score looks close, they don’t come out and tell you they were cruising easy because they know you don’t have the weapons or skills to hurt them.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
to a certain extent yes. Keegan is UCLA's #3 singles last yr. Derek and Mason ended up beating D1 players so they're a diff story vs alex
FiReFTW
Legend
Yeah also when looking at tournaments, if you play a weaker player clearly theres no need to go all out and exert energy for nothing, would be a dumb move. Just cruise easy enough to win easily but not put too much effort and energy into it.
Federer at wimbledon 17 is a good example, he won many sets 6:4, put alot of effoet to get that break then just focused on easily holding serve and not putting too much effort to get another break, when he could if he wanted to.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
So were you a 4 or 5 star? Blue chip? And of course there is outliers. You can find any result to justify weird conclusions. You can't beat D1 players and you are an adult top level 4.5 I am guessing. So no. You are not going to beat a 5 star 18 year old starting college at USC. And neither is any other 4.5. Unless it's some weird circumstance. Stop trying to justify your tennis level. You played club tennis. Kids play D1 and still graduate with a great degree and a job. It's not time or lack of smarts that prevents varsity athletics. Its tennis level.
Your whole premise is suspect.
All your posted matches the "club" players lost. And were the club guys even 4.5 ntrp?
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Open level. Not 4.5 level. The club guys are not 4.5. Serious? I'm sure there are some 5 star players playing club but they are not a 4.5 ntrp and they can smoke a 35 year old 4.5 player. Or anyone for that matter playing ntrp.
yes, as your self-reported records of "20-4 record in 4.5 & 2-1 in 5.0" clearly indicates
oh, I tell you, these days, if you have too much time on your hands, you can find anything. Here's another nugget.
In this very thread the certain poster stated:
"
I'm talking about a 18-35 yr old adult at 4.5 and I'm from OC SoCal so this is were I base my level of 4.5 vs juniors. The good 4.5s here will smoke any 3/4 star junior 18 yr old on a given day.
"
subsequently we have established that 4 star 18yr is about 11.50 UTR give or take half a point. Ok, so good 4.5 player should smoke 18 yr old junior with UTR ~11.00.
Than we have this, posted by the same poster about 6 months prior [ here ]:
"
I've beaten a ranked junior 16 yr old utr 9 easily and had a close match with a 5.0 utr 9. I'm probs low bc I only play doubles while most ppl play singles
"
by 'had a close match' I think it is safe to assume 'I lost'. So we are led to believe that:
- in April a player lost to UTR 9.
- By November that same year that same player was smoking UTR ~11.00. And he is having 'competitive' matches with D1 player who is playing #4 for a major team with like 70% winning percentage, and with UTR ~12.65
- All while he is 'truly 4.5', and plays at 4.5 where he, by his own admission, belongs.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Most likely truth is guys just lie about their tennis level. How hard is it to just admit kids who practice hours on end to get to 11, 12, 13 utr are incredible players and you as a 4.5 are not beating them. No matter how much wishful thinking goes on.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
I wasnt lying about anything that I beat 4 stars and that I'm their hitting coach. UTR is different from tennisrecruiting in terms of level bc if you say UTR you are comparing them to everyone. If you say tennisrecruiting (stars, etc) they are compared to juniors. So while I cant beat those with that UTR but juniors and 4 stars I have beaten. The only thing i'm saying is you can't compare juniors to adults unless they're top tier. I dont see 4 star as top tier yet.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Some do play 4.5 and they do smoke most 4.5s but then again they also lose to some 4.5s as well. One of these guys was actually a 4.5 until just recently.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Well you are also not a 4.5 ntrp if you can beat 11 utr junior. So I don't even know what you've been saying this whole thread makes no sense.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Always interesting. I am lucky I get to hit with a lot of variety in levels, or at least was up to this year. But I do have quite a few players contact me to hit and generally I find they are on level or maybe a few fudge a step, both up or down even.
As for juniors though, there is a difference, albeit small influence on play overall, between UTR, age, and play level. I hit with one of our kids, Kai, who is 10 years old and is currently ranked somwhere around 50 in the boys 18's for the Southwest.
Anyway, Kai hits drop-in doubles with the 3.5 and 4.0 guys for fun and runs them around like crazy. Some of those guys get a bit butt hurt. lol.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
that good 4.5s can beat 4 stars. Well I havent been bumped, I cant say im better than a 4.5 when I'm not there yet.
ok, please, post few verifiable tournament/league results where 4.5 NTRP won against 18 yr old 4 star.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
well that matchup will never happen in a tournament setting but I can repost something better
Derek Lin (club tennis - 4.5) d. Gilbert Chung (NCAA UCR - utr 12) 1-6; 6-2; 11-9
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Deleted member 23235
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wow 10y old, and utr9... could he beat/stay-competitve with an avg 4.5 (because i'm an avg 4.5, that typically find strong 4.5's a challenge
)?(why does everyone compare to <top of ntrp level>?)
Hey I know the kid to whom you are referring. KM is actually 12 turning 13 in December. Great junior player though!
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Deleted member 23235
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hmmm...
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/890464 (utr11)
http://www.tennisrecord.com/adult/profile.aspx?playername=Derek Lin
* only 1y playing record... and smoked everyone... i suspect 4.5S (self rated!)
* likely getting bumped to 5.0
now i understand why CA (or whatever region), has <level> much stronger than <my region>...
you get a bunch of guys that self-rate...
dominate!
then you get a bunch of other folks, thinking that those dominating self-rates are representative of 4.5 (or whatever level),
and then you get someone saying... "the 4.5's in my area beat utr12 players".
i wonder if this is a form of "basking in reflected glory"... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201112/the-psychology-sports-fans
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FiReFTW
Legend
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/890464
Seems like this Derek Lin has an 11UTR, according to MyUTR thats higher than any 4.5NTRP player.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
true but if I lose to your guys and they're 40+? (which i did lose) and if my league is strong then you're strong as well then 4.5 as a whole is a strong level
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Lol... seriously man. What is your utr marina? 8 or 9?
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
im a 6.52
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
According to socal 4.5 marina a ATP pro can self rate at 4.5 and win everything and it proves that 4.5 players are better than 4 star juniors. Do you not see what is wrong with this? A 4.5 is supposed to be a 7 or 8 utr? Not 11.
norcal
Legend
Hmmm, probably a Socal 3.0
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
i think theyre more 9/10 from what i see but thats like everyone not just a select few
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
wow 10y old, and utr9... could he beat/stay-competitve with an avg 4.5 (because i'm an avg 4.5, that typically find strong 4.5's a challenge
(why does everyone compare to <top of ntrp level>?)
Sorry, messed that up a bit typing. Kai is currnelty 12 years old and is plyaing at UTR 9.
Here ya go:
https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=836323
Kids a crack up too.
Back kinda on topic, Kai is interesting in that on Fridays he comes up and hits in a lot of practices, from juniors to hitting with some of the college players. He always swings over after that and wants to jump in with us or whoever is around. He hits with anyone and everyone and hangs around at the club all night with his Mom and brother. Playing up or down doesn't effect him and he plays his game, so the mix of levels works fine for him. I don't think that is the case for a lot of players though.
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
When he is 16 he won't be allowed to play with the adults lol. Serves might hurt them.
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