The next time another post emerges about Djokovic/Roddick head to head...

Steve0904

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Of course there are many people that overvalue many H2H's and make out like Roddick is this great world beating force for leading Djokovic by one match which is ridiculous.

But then there's the other side of all that which is complete disrespect for Roddick and the problems he gave Djokovic. Would he still lead Novak after another 10 matches post 2010? Absolutely not, but would his 03-05 self at least be competitive on his preferred surfaces and take an odd match, even if only in BO3? I'd say so, and I think that's the big picture here. For as much greater as Djokovic is, and he is the better player, they still never played each other in their very best years.

So really it just shows the holes in any H2H argument. Every match in every H2H should take circumstances and surfaces and a lot of other factors into account instead of just simplifying everything into looking at the numbers.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Steve0904 said:
Of course there are many people that overvalue many H2H's and make out like Roddick is this great world beating force for leading Djokovic by one match which is ridiculous.

But then there's the other side of all that which is complete disrespect for Roddick and the problems he gave Djokovic. Would he still lead Novak after another 10 matches post 2010? Absolutely not, but would his 03-05 self at least be competitive on his preferred surfaces and take an odd match, even if only in BO3? I'd say so, and I think that's the big picture here. For as much greater as Djokovic is, and he is the better player, they still never played each other in their very best years.

So really it just shows the holes in any H2H argument. Every match in every H2H should take circumstances and surfaces and a lot of other factors into account instead of just simplifying everything into looking at the numbers.
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Good points but it depends on the context of the head to head. Hrbaty for example leading Fedal is a good example. He would never lead either of them if they played enough matches. As for Roddick, it reminds of the Tsonga head to head. Troubled Djokovic early before he ran away with it. I do agree about the Roddick disrespect though and I myself may be guilty of that somewhat. The guy did make 5 GS finals so that deserves respect.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
duaneeo said:
Of course it wouldn't have lasted. Nole would've surpassed Roddick as Andy got older and his game declined...similar to how Nole was finally able to surpass Federer. :happydevil:
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Well it was very hard for Djokovic to pass Federer because he is that good so not quite that hard. More like Tsonga or something.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
EloQuent said:
The whole point of bringing up the Roddick H2H is to get you people to admit this. Nobody seriously believes that Roddick is better than Djokovic.
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I cannot tell you how many posts I have read on this site that do not add up to what you are saying, or at least those who think he would have kept the lead. Lol.
 
Federer and Del Potro

Federer and Del Potro

Bionic Poster
NoleFam said:
I cannot tell you how many posts I have read on this site that do not add up to what you are saying, or at least those who think he would have kept the lead. Lol.
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You could write an actual encyclopedia on TTW-ISMS (aka really dumb things).

You work on that while @StANDAA and I complete the entire @AndyM to English translation book.

Together we will make millions.
 
tennisaddict

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
If we are going to highlight DJoko's h2h over 37 year Fed then it is par for the course to highlight Roddick's h2h over DJoker.

But if we realize that Novak went past Fed only during 2016 AO , then there is no need to mention Roddick h2h
 
TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Steve0904 said:
Of course there are many people that overvalue many H2H's and make out like Roddick is this great world beating force for leading Djokovic by one match which is ridiculous.

But then there's the other side of all that which is complete disrespect for Roddick and the problems he gave Djokovic. Would he still lead Novak after another 10 matches post 2010? Absolutely not, but would his 03-05 self at least be competitive on his preferred surfaces and take an odd match, even if only in BO3? I'd say so, and I think that's the big picture here. For as much greater as Djokovic is, and he is the better player, they still never played each other in their very best years.

So really it just shows the holes in any H2H argument. Every match in every H2H should take circumstances and surfaces and a lot of other factors into account instead of just simplifying everything into looking at the numbers.
Click to expand...

I agree with your point overall.

But really to compare Novak and roddick is preposterous at best and inane at worst. One could go down as the absolute GOAT. The other is not even a great player forget about ATG.

Djokovic and Roddick are not in the same stratosphere and hardly merit mention in the same sentence.

And yeah , post 2011 Djokovic would have reversed the h2h with Roddick. Look at what Djoker did to Fed and Nadal. Pulverized them after getting into his prime.
 
Sport

Sport

G.O.A.T.
TennisFan3 said:
I agree with your point overall.

But really to compare Novak and roddick is preposterous at best and inane at worst. One could go down as the absolute GOAT. The other is not even a great player forget about ATG.

Djokovic and Roddick are not in the same stratosphere and hardly merit mention in the same sentence?

And yeah , post 2011 Djokovic would have reversed the h2h with Roddick. Look at what Djoker did to Fed and Nadal. Pulverized them after getting into his prime.
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Nadal still leads the H2H over Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open). :)

Is that pulverization? I doubt it. Pulverization would be leading the H2H over Nadal both in Slams and overall.
 
J

JackGates

Legend
Of course he wasn't better, but this at least proves that Fed's era had more talent who could challenge top guys more. Safin also has a winnin h2h versus Djokovic. I think Blake also had winning h2h versus Nadal for a long time and Nalbandian too.
 
Sport

Sport

G.O.A.T.
JackGates said:
Of course he wasn't better, but this at least proves that Fed's era had more talent who could challenge top guys more. Safin also has a winnin h2h versus Djokovic. I think Blake also had winning h2h versus Nadal for a long time and Nalbandian too.
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Yeah, because facing Roddick is the same than Djokodal facing each other. :rolleyes:
 
TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Sport said:
Nadal still leads the H2H over Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open). :)

Is that pulverization? I doubt it. Pulverization would be leading the H2H over Nadal both in Slams and overall.
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Look at their h2h after Novak entered his prime in 2011. It's something like 21-9 or 22-10 for Novak.

After his prime, Novak has really dominated Fed and Nadal in slams and all tournaments. Credit where it's due.

Fed and Nadal were lucky to face and beat a cub Novak - who was not as strong pre-2011.

OF course that is not Fedal's fault. Let's see the h2h when they retire. But if Novak leads the h2h with both, then that's definitely a strong argument in his favor.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
EloQuent said:
The whole point of bringing up the Roddick H2H is to get you people to admit this. Nobody seriously believes that Roddick is better than Djokovic.
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But Roddick was arguably the better player during the period that their careers overlapped.
 
FD3S

FD3S

Hall of Fame
TennisFan3 said:
Better than a greenhorn, immature, cub Novak?
Roddick wasn't around when Djokovic became the monster he is now.
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Let's not overstate things. While Djokovic wasn't at his peak when their careers overlapped - for the record, neither was Roddick - but for the majority of their encounters Roddick was playing a young but already battle-tested and Major/Masters winning world no. 3 that was always ranked higher than he was. IMO just because he wasn't at his ATG prime that doesn't make this like Djokovic getting destroyed by Safin in 2005 or a greenhorn Federer getting rolled by Kafelnikov in 1999 and 2000; younger Novak was still an excellent pro, something his ranking and results against the field at the time bore out.
 
Gazelle

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic fans seems pretty proud that Djokovic managed to beat washed up broken shoulder Roddick in 2012.

Would have been a massive achievement if Roddick had kept playing and Djokovic tied the H2H somewhere in 2012 or 2013. Easily on par with winning the CYGS.
 
J

JackGates

Legend
Sport said:
Yeah, because facing Roddick is the same than Djokodal facing each other. :rolleyes:
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That's the problem, it's subjective, but most people are set in their ways they don't want to consider any alternatives.
Some may argue that beating variety of talented opponents with different styles on polarized surfaces is as hard as facing one all time great in the final for example. Because Djokovic already knows how to play Fedal, so it might be easier in some ways and harder in some ways than facing different unkown players of variety. Especially on faster surfaces where it's easy for talented shotmakers to create an upset.

So, you can argue both ways. Plus there is also peak play, Wawrinka on paper is not close to Djokovic but his peak is the same for example, players who aren't greats on paper can still reach high peak play and be dangerous, like Hewitt, Safin, Agassi. But Murray is the opposite. He is good on paper, but his peak can't challenge Federer for example, so he won't be as tough even when on paper he looks dangerous while Safin was tougher for Federer than Murray.
 
TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
FD3S said:
Let's not overstate things. While Djokovic wasn't at his peak when their careers overlapped - for the record, neither was Roddick - but for the majority of their encounters Roddick was playing a young but already battle-tested and Major/Masters winning world no. 3 that was always ranked higher than he was. IMO just because he wasn't at his ATG prime that doesn't make this like Djokovic getting destroyed by Safin in 2005 or a greenhorn Federer getting rolled by Kafelnikov in 1999 and 2000; younger Novak was still an excellent pro, something his ranking and results against the field at the time bore out.
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True but what Novak was at #3 was just a future good player, a slam winner.
What he became after 2011, was a monster. The most efficient, ruthless tennis machine the world has EVER seen.
No one, NOT A SINGLE PERSON, could ever imagine what Novak would become. He transformed from a good player into GOAT status - just like that.
He still might set some records which might never be broken, and who knows what all he could end up accomplishing.

So yeah, comparing pre-2011 Djokovic is futile. Because later he became a player who was 100x better. If we use his prime years (post 2011) as yardstick, he is FAR FAR better than almost anyone he ever played with.
So no, Roddick was right. He was LUCKY that he retired in time. Otherwise the h2h would look like abject domination by Novak - similar to all other h2h of Djokovic with any ATP player.
 
FD3S

FD3S

Hall of Fame
TennisFan3 said:
True but what Novak was at #3 was just a future good player, a slam winner.
What he became after 2011, was a monster. The most efficient, ruthless tennis machine the world has EVER seen.
No one, NOT A SINGLE PERSON, could ever imagine what Novak would become. He transformed from a good player into GOAT status - just like that.
He still might set some records which might never be broken, and who knows what all he could end up accomplishing.

So yeah, comparing pre-2011 Djokovic is futile. Because later he became a player who was 100x better. If we use his prime years (post 2011) as yardstick, he is FAR FAR better than almost anyone he ever played with.
So no, Roddick was right. He was LUCKY that he retired in time. Otherwise the h2h would look like abject domination by Novak - similar to all other h2h of Djokovic with any ATP player.
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Could be! Their matchup issue was such that Novak was heavily favored on paper for every match barring their first and still dropped a bunch (really, as soon as the rallies were neutral Djokovic's ground game should have taken over with impunity, but history shows that wasn't the case for whatever reason), so it's very possible that while peak Roddick might have fared the same way against peak Novak as the rest of the tour - very poorly - it's also quite possible he'd have been the Krajicek to Djoker's Sampras; a markedly inferior player, but one that for whatever reason gave him fits when few others did with no rhyme or reason. That wasn't any serious knock on Pete, just like the Roddick H2H really shouldn't be a serious knock on Djokovic. For all the effort fans and analysts put into dissecting the game... sometimes weird crap just happens with matchups.
 
FD3S

FD3S

Hall of Fame
Also, for the record - Novak as a major winning #3 was far beyond simply just a 'future good player'. That's an elite player on the world stage - future good would have been him in 2007 before he really broke out against Fed, Nadal, and Roddick during the same tournament.
 
TearTheRoofOff

TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
TennisFan3 said:
I agree with your point overall.

But really to compare Novak and roddick is preposterous at best and inane at worst. One could go down as the absolute GOAT. The other is not even a great player forget about ATG.

Djokovic and Roddick are not in the same stratosphere and hardly merit mention in the same sentence.

And yeah , post 2011 Djokovic would have reversed the h2h with Roddick. Look at what Djoker did to Fed and Nadal. Pulverized them after getting into his prime.
Click to expand...
The wider the claimed disparity in quality between the players, the more curious the head to head in favour of the inferior player becomes, surely. Taking into account the 'peaking' - It demonstrates that timing is an extremely significant variable in a match-up, which too many people ignore or dismiss.
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
JackGates said:
Of course he wasn't better, but this at least proves that Fed's era had more talent who could challenge top guys more. Safin also has a winnin h2h versus Djokovic. I think Blake also had winning h2h versus Nadal for a long time and Nalbandian too.
Click to expand...

Davydenko also has a winning H2H against Nadal.

Fed's era had an immense arsenal of talents.
 
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