Private lesson: how do you get them to help your serve?

E

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
I've done a few private lessons while traveling and the thing I need the most help with is my serve. I tell the pros that it's my primary focus, but as we're warming up they say they want to teach me "pat the dog" or work on other things and I end up doing serves for like 5 minutes at the end of the lesson.

Of course I don't want to just come on the court and hit serves, but I really want help with making sure I have a smooth, repeatable motion with a consistent toss. The toss has been my nemesis for years and I'd like to get some tips on incorporating that with everything else with the serve. Not just standing there tossing.

Knock on wood, but my forehand, volleys, etc aren't going to break down completely, but my serve will. As I've posted for years when I get tight the double faults start rolling in and even when I'm relaxed I can't always count on my toss. So how do I get the most out of the lesson so the serve isn't an afterthought or I'm not just hitting balls from a bucket without any input from the pro?
 
beltsman

beltsman

G.O.A.T.
EddieBrock said:
I've done a few private lessons while traveling and the thing I need the most help with is my serve. I tell the pros that it's my primary focus, but as we're warming up they say they want to teach me "pat the dog" or work on other things and I end up doing serves for like 5 minutes at the end of the lesson.

Of course I don't want to just come on the court and hit serves, but I really want help with making sure I have a smooth, repeatable motion with a consistent toss. The toss has been my nemesis for years and I'd like to get some tips on incorporating that with everything else with the serve. Not just standing there tossing.

Knock on wood, but my forehand, volleys, etc aren't going to break down completely, but my serve will. As I've posted for years when I get tight the double faults start rolling in and even when I'm relaxed I can't always count on my toss. So how do I get the most out of the lesson so the serve isn't an afterthought or I'm not just hitting balls from a bucket without any input from the pro?
Click to expand...

? Just tell them that you only want to do serve.
 
graycrait

graycrait

Legend
Are you willing to put in 150 serves a day every day for a year or more? If not your serve will likely be a liability. People put tons of reps in on ground strokes, volleys, etc. Few are willing to do the same thing with serves.
 
Last edited:
E

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
beltsman said:
? Just tell them that you only want to do serve.
Click to expand...

That's what I've done before and they still want to do other things. Do you think they'll really do serves for the whole hour? It also seems like I'd eventually get tired. Should I maybe try serve followed by a few shots?
 
beltsman

beltsman

G.O.A.T.
EddieBrock said:
That's what I've done before and they still want to do other things. Do you think they'll really do serves for the whole hour? It also seems like I'd eventually get tired. Should I maybe try serve followed by a few shots?
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Are you paying them?
 
J

Johnr

Rookie
Is this really a question? Before you hire them tell them all you want to work on serve, they say yes, you do this, they say no you move on to next pro
 
joffa101

joffa101

New User
EddieBrock said:
That's what I've done before and they still want to do other things. Do you think they'll really do serves for the whole hour? It also seems like I'd eventually get tired. Should I maybe try serve followed by a few shots?
Click to expand...

Just book ½ hour lessons!
 
E

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Johnr said:
Is this really a question? Before you hire them tell them all you want to work on serve, they say yes, you do this, they say no you move on to next pro
Click to expand...

That's what I should have done.

Seems like when you go to a lesson the pro has a set format ... mini tennis/warmup then groundstrokes, then hitting, then serves at the end. Doesn't seem like it would be wise to walk on the court and just start right with serves and stay with it for the whole hour. Wouldn't that hurt my shoulder?

Aside from getting the pro to agree to do mainly serves what's the right amount of time to spend on it with a single lesson?
 
K

Kevo

Legend
EddieBrock said:
That's what I've done before and they still want to do other things. Do you think they'll really do serves for the whole hour? It also seems like I'd eventually get tired. Should I maybe try serve followed by a few shots?
Click to expand...

I've done serves for an hour with someone many times. The serve is so important and I've seen quite a few coaches teach it poorly over the years. I've also done tossing for probably 30 minutes before. Usually people get the toss quickly enough that it's passable for the first couple of progressions, but I revisit it often if needed. The toss is the most important thing to get right when developing your serve.
 
B

BBender716

Semi-Pro
Also, for what it's worth, serving is one of those few things that you can really practice without a ball machine or hitting partner. Yes, bad practice makes bad play, but you can still make good progress with solid YouTube videos and lots and LOTS of balls on the court.

There are many areas of my game I suck at but with the vast majority of my training coming from YouTube and a crap ton of reps, my opponents do always mention my "big serve".

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
EddieBrock said:
That's what I've done before and they still want to do other things. Do you think they'll really do serves for the whole hour? It also seems like I'd eventually get tired. Should I maybe try serve followed by a few shots?
Click to expand...

why not?
1. I guess you pay them same money
2. while for example rallying with you, they need to do some effort. Coaching you on serve, they'll be likely standing around and giving advice.
If you have to rally let's say 8-12 hours a day, or 4 hours rally + 4 hours advice - there might be a difference
 
heninfan99

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
You have to be an aggressive jerk for a few minutes and demand what you want for your money. Then you can revert back to your normal self.

Just had a similar experience with a personal trainer. I had to veer him to deadlift technique though all he wanted to do was stretching.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
graycrait said:
Are you willing to put in 150 serves a day every day for a year or more? If not your serve will likely be a liability. People put tons of reps in on ground strokes, volleys, etc. Few are willing to do the same thing with serves.
Click to expand...

straight to the point.
1. practice. You can do it on your own, especially if you have the "feel". Focus on toss till it is all automated like your forehand.
2. there are exercises to improve your toss. Somehting like you need to stand close to a wall, with the wall being virtually the point where your racket has to hit the ball. Toss the ball in that point, so that it only slightly touches the wall. See if you can catch it before bounce.
Rinse & repeat points 1 & 2 till your service works fine.
 
D

Deleted member 766172

Guest
graycrait said:
Are you willing to put in 150 serves a day every day for a year or more? If not your serve will likely be a liability. People put tons of reps in on ground strokes, volleys, etc. Few are willing to do the same thing with serves.
Click to expand...
Overkill imo
 
D

Deleted member 766172

Guest
Haven't you posted videos on here before? What is keeping you from letting us TTW members dissect your serve?
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
EddieBrock said:
I've done a few private lessons while traveling and the thing I need the most help with is my serve. I tell the pros that it's my primary focus, but as we're warming up they say they want to teach me "pat the dog" or work on other things and I end up doing serves for like 5 minutes at the end of the lesson.
Click to expand...

5 minutes is too less, but a certified teaching pro is ethics-bound to make sure you will not be injured by jumping into the serve before a gentle stroke flow has been accomplished. You can tell him that you warmed up before-hand, but it is not his job to police that and verify your claim.
 
C

Cawlin

Semi-Pro
So it's been said by @J011yroger and others, but it's not easy to teach a serve, especially if you're only getting a single private here or there, rather than engaging a coach for a lesson package or for a regular weekly or semi-weekly deal.

With that said though, yeah, the responsibility is yours to engage a coach that will take a look at your serve and hopefully be able to spot the flaws and work with you on them... not all coaches can do this, it's just that simple.
 
heninfan99

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
sureshs said:
5 minutes is too less, but a certified teaching pro is ethics-bound to make sure you will not be injured by jumping into the serve before a gentle stroke flow has been accomplished. You can tell him that you warmed up before-hand, but it is not his job to police that and verify your claim.
Click to expand...
how does MTM teach the serve
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Adults taking serve lessons is in general a waste of time. Innumerable videos around. And improvement beyond the "acceptable" level is usually impossible for those who did not start tennis young or were otherwise exceptionally gifted in other sports.
 
graycrait

graycrait

Legend
FRV2 said:
Haven't you posted videos on here before? What is keeping you from letting us TTW members dissect your serve?
Click to expand...
And what would be gained by you or I if I, a 65yr old stroke survivor who grew up playing on public courts sans lessons with wooden rackets, posted a video? Maybe, "if that old dude can do it so can I sort of thing?" Heck, even the young guys I hit with kid me about my serve practicing. The only reason I practice serves a lot is that a former D1 player I hit around with a bit when he was here on the college team took a look at my serve and told me to hit 150 serves as many days a week as I could fit in. My arm isn't loosened up any more until I have at least 30 practice serves and prefer 50 or so. I sort of liken it to a baseball pitchers bullpen - they don't get called to the mound cold. Serve practice to me is like rifle target practice or even archery. Needs lots of reps and occasional coaching.

In any case if you are ever in the Nashville area pm me, maybe we can have a hit or I can arrange a hit for you with someone. I'll hit with anyone. Yesterday I agreed to hit with a middle aged 3.0 lady who wants me to hit with her as she rehabs from a broken leg she suffered in a car accident. I told her as long as it takes to get her back into the leagues.
 
D

Deleted member 766172

Guest
graycrait said:
And what would be gained by you or I if I, a 65yr old stroke survivor who grew up playing on public courts sans lessons with wooden rackets, posted a video? Maybe, "if that old dude can do it so can I sort of thing?" Heck, even the young guys I hit with kid me about my serve practicing. The only reason I practice serves a lot is that a former D1 player I hit around with a bit when he was here on the college team took a look at my serve and told me to hit 150 serves as many days a week as I could fit in. My arm isn't loosened up any more until I have at least 30 practice serves and prefer 50 or so. I sort of liken it to a baseball pitchers bullpen - they don't get called to the mound cold. Serve practice to me is like rifle target practice or even archery. Needs lots of reps and occasional coaching.

In any case if you are ever in the Nashville area pm me, maybe we can have a hit or I can arrange a hit for you with someone. I'll hit with anyone. Yesterday I agreed to hit with a middle aged 3.0 lady who wants me to hit with her as she rehabs from a broken leg she suffered in a car accident. I told her as long as it takes to get her back into the leagues.
Click to expand...
That post was directed at the OP haha. I thought he posted videos of himself before, but I think I was wrong as I can't find it.
 
B

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
I am paying $125/hr for my kid tennis lesson with this teaching pro and I told him EXPLICITLY that I want him to teach my son how to hit 1- Flat serve, 2- Slice serve, 3- Kick serve, down the tee, wide out and into the body. For a 60 minutes lesson and the next three lessons, I want him do nothing but that. I want to make that clear to him. My son gets to the tennis court early, does 45 minutes of stretching and 20 minutes of hitting of his own to get himself warm up. For the next 60 minutes, he does nothing but serve get instructions from the teaching pro. It is not that hard to understand.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
bobleenov1963 said:
I am paying $125/hr for my kid tennis lesson with this teaching pro and I told him EXPLICITLY that I want him to teach my son how to hit 1- Flat serve, 2- Slice serve, 3- Kick serve, down the tee, wide out and into the body. For a 60 minutes lesson and the next three lessons, I want him do nothing but that. I want to make that clear to him. My son gets to the tennis court early, does 45 minutes of stretching and 20 minutes of hitting of his own to get himself warm up. For the next 60 minutes, he does nothing but serve get instructions from the teaching pro. It is not that hard to understand.
Click to expand...

OK, but in your case you are kind of vouching for your son being prepared. That is not the case for a random adult staying in a tennis resort who strolls into the courts after a heavy buffet breakfast and several drinks the night before and asks for a serve-only lesson. Ethical pro cannot honor that without warm-up.
 
E

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
sureshs said:
Adults taking serve lessons is in general a waste of time. Innumerable videos around. And improvement beyond the "acceptable" level is usually impossible for those who did not start tennis young or were otherwise exceptionally gifted in other sports.
Click to expand...

The thing is I know what you're supposed to do on the serve and I do it sometimes, but my toss is inconsistent making my serve inconsistent.

In lessons they will tell me where to toss the ball, but I've never had a good lesson that shows "how" to toss the ball for the serve that has actually helpee. I've switched from palm facing up, to the side, been told to loosen my left arm, tighten my left arm so it's like a cast, release at eye level, etc. I can toss just fine standing there tossing, but when I bring the rest of my motion into play the toss goes awry. It's especially bad if I'm nervous. So while I'm sure all the YouTube videos and generic advice is fine, what I need is for someone to see what I'm doing on my serve that's causing the toss and serve to fall apart.
 
Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
EddieBrock said:
The thing is I know what you're supposed to do on the serve and I do it sometimes, but my toss is inconsistent making my serve inconsistent.

In lessons they will tell me where to toss the ball, but I've never had a good lesson that shows "how" to toss the ball for the serve that has actually helpee. I've switched from palm facing up, to the side, been told to loosen my left arm, tighten my left arm so it's like a cast, release at eye level, etc. I can toss just fine standing there tossing, but when I bring the rest of my motion into play the toss goes awry.
Click to expand...

You say, "I can toss just fine standing there tossing." That is essentially what Serena does.
Her racquet arm does practically nothing until toss leaves her hand. Try that.

CT6NqdZ.png
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
EddieBrock said:
The thing is I know what you're supposed to do on the serve and I do it sometimes, but my toss is inconsistent making my serve inconsistent.

In lessons they will tell me where to toss the ball, but I've never had a good lesson that shows "how" to toss the ball for the serve that has actually helpee. I've switched from palm facing up, to the side, been told to loosen my left arm, tighten my left arm so it's like a cast, release at eye level, etc. I can toss just fine standing there tossing, but when I bring the rest of my motion into play the toss goes awry. It's especially bad if I'm nervous. So while I'm sure all the YouTube videos and generic advice is fine, what I need is for someone to see what I'm doing on my serve that's causing the toss and serve to fall apart.
Click to expand...
It requires body coordination. It has an upper bound depending on genetics and when you started playing. You will never have a better toss than that no matter how much theory you know

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Raul_SJ

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
sureshs said:
It requires body coordination. It has an upper bound depending on genetics and when you started playing. You will never have a better toss than that no matter how much theory you know
Click to expand...

He says he can toss just fine. "I can toss just fine standing there tossing." Only screws up when the hitting arm is incorporated into the motion. He needs to try the Serena extremely staggered motion where the hitting arm does nothing until toss is released.
 
BallBag

BallBag

Professional
J011yroger said:
Find a coach with a good serve and ask if he is a good serve coach. Find a player with a good serve and ask him who taught him.

It's not rocket science.

J
Click to expand...
Considering every other person on the forum thinks they are qualified to teach the serve based on their extensive research of Fed slow mos, why would a professional coach ever think that they are not qualified to teach serve.
 
K

Kevo

Legend
bobleenov1963 said:
I am paying $125/hr for my kid tennis lesson with this teaching pro and I told him EXPLICITLY that I want him to teach my son how to hit 1- Flat serve, 2- Slice serve, 3- Kick serve, down the tee, wide out and into the body. For a 60 minutes lesson and the next three lessons, I want him do nothing but that. I want to make that clear to him. My son gets to the tennis court early, does 45 minutes of stretching and 20 minutes of hitting of his own to get himself warm up. For the next 60 minutes, he does nothing but serve get instructions from the teaching pro. It is not that hard to understand.
Click to expand...

I'd love to find someone who wanted to pay me $125 an hour just to teach serves. I love serving and teaching serves. I've got to say though, unless your child has some kind of condition I can't see any reason a kid that is regularly active physically needs to stretch 45 minutes before tennis. 5 minutes of stretching and 5 minutes of some kind of warm up is most likely adequate. Too much stretching could actually be detrimental to performance and injury prevention. I think the scientific research might be conflicting on that point, but 45 minutes of stretching seems quite excessive.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
BallBag said:
Considering every other person on the forum thinks they are qualified to teach the serve based on their extensive research of Fed slow mos, why would a professional coach ever think that they are not qualified to teach serve.
Click to expand...

Every other person on the forum doesn't have a good serve, you conveniently overlooked my primary qualifier.

J
 
B

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Kevo said:
I'd love to find someone who wanted to pay me $125 an hour just to teach serves. I love serving and teaching serves. I've got to say though, unless your child has some kind of condition I can't see any reason a kid that is regularly active physically needs to stretch 45 minutes before tennis. 5 minutes of stretching and 5 minutes of some kind of warm up is most likely adequate. Too much stretching could actually be detrimental to performance and injury prevention. I think the scientific research might be conflicting on that point, but 45 minutes of stretching seems quite excessive.
Click to expand...

I was watching Djokovic at Rogers Cup in 2012 and Djokovic was doing 60 minutes of stretching and warm up before picking the tennis racquet. Djokovic was doing 21 exercises to increase his flexibility with each one last about 2 minutes. That added up to 42 minutes. The other 18 minutes was kinda warming up stretch the muscle with a foam roller. I timed it and it was 60 minutes before djokovic actually picked the racquet and hit the tennis ball.
 
BallBag

BallBag

Professional
J011yroger said:
Every other person on the forum doesn't have a good serve, you conveniently overlooked my primary qualifier.

J
Click to expand...
"Dear Mr Club Pro,
My name is Ballbag and I am looking for a coach to help me improve my serve. Before I can secure your services, please submit a video of you hitting a flat, slice and kick serves. Each serve should go wide, middle and tee. The video must be uninterrupted and all serves should be 90 MPH minimum with the exception of the flat serves, which should be 110 MPH minimum. Alternatively, you may submit your ATP or WTA ranking or the previously described video from 3 of your students. Thank you and I look forward to reviewing your submission.

Best regards,
Ballbag"
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
BallBag said:
"Dear Mr Club Pro,
My name is Ballbag and I am looking for a coach to help me improve my serve. Before I can secure your services, please submit a video of you hitting a flat, slice and kick serves. Each serve should go wide, middle and tee. The video must be uninterrupted and all serves should be 90 MPH minimum with the exception of the flat serves, which should be 110 MPH minimum. Alternatively, you may submit your ATP or WTA ranking or the previously described video from 3 of your students. Thank you and I look forward to reviewing your submission.

Best regards,
Ballbag"
Click to expand...


J
 
joffa101

joffa101

New User
sureshs said:
Adults taking serve lessons is in general a waste of time. Innumerable videos around. And improvement beyond the "acceptable" level is usually impossible for those who did not start tennis young or were otherwise exceptionally gifted in other sports.
Click to expand...

What complete rubbish!

I would almost say improvement in serving is very hard without a pro/advice/lessons. Improvement can be made at any age by any level!

Our club has group coaching. There are 4 of us that have been doing them for a few years now every week with the same coach. EVERY week we spend the last 15 mins working on a serve with supervised progressions and drills(we rotate between 1st & topspin each term). We always finish with tie break points to serve under pressure. As you can imagine, our serves have improved an incredible amount!
 
K

Kevo

Legend
bobleenov1963 said:
I was watching Djokovic at Rogers Cup in 2012 and Djokovic was doing 60 minutes of stretching and warm up before picking the tennis racquet. Djokovic was doing 21 exercises to increase his flexibility with each one last about 2 minutes. That added up to 42 minutes. The other 18 minutes was kinda warming up stretch the muscle with a foam roller. I timed it and it was 60 minutes before djokovic actually picked the racquet and hit the tennis ball.
Click to expand...

Well, that's one example. Is there another example? Also, the data is conflicting at this point as far as I can tell. It could very well be that some people benefit and some don't, so trust your own judgement on it. Just go into it with open eyes and don't be dogmatic if there are signs in the other direction. If you're going to do that much stretching it may be better to do it after the workout. You can probably google a bit and find some actual studies on it if you're interested.
 
B

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Kevo said:
Well, that's one example. Is there another example? Also, the data is conflicting at this point as far as I can tell. It could very well be that some people benefit and some don't, so trust your own judgement on it. Just go into it with open eyes and don't be dogmatic if there are signs in the other direction. If you're going to do that much stretching it may be better to do it after the workout. You can probably google a bit and find some actual studies on it if you're interested.
Click to expand...

Borna Coric is another ATP player that also stretches and warm up for 60 minutes before picking up the tennis racquet. Saw him did that in person at AO. He is baby Djokovic when he plays his best and baby Murray when he plays at his worst. Dude is the beast in person.

Having said that, I do see your point. It might not work for everyone. The medical community is split on this as well.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
bobleenov1963 said:
Borna Coric is another ATP player that also stretches and warm up for 60 minutes before picking up the tennis racquet. Saw him did that in person at AO. He is baby Djokovic when he plays his best and baby Murray when he plays at his worst. Dude is the beast in person.

Having said that, I do see your point. It might not work for everyone. The medical community is split on this as well.
Click to expand...

Former world #1, 3 time slam champion, 2 time Olympic gold medalist at his worst?

J
 
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