If homogenization never happen. BIG 3 don' t surpass Sampras record?

Pheasant

Legend
This is impossible to know. Smaller rackets, different string technology, and more diverse surfaces change everything. Toss in far worse nutrition, medicine, surgeons, training, and possibly the lack of questionable substances and we get different sports.

And lastly, the money that the best get nowadays is insane. They can afford to have a team of pros fly with them everywhere. I believe that this has a huge play in why the top players separate more from the guys ranked outside the top 50 than ever before. This has a play into why top 10 players meet each other far more often than ever before. It also affects the length of the peak of players today, which is much longer than it was 30-40 years ago.

It could be an instance where Fed is McEnroe, Djoker is Lendl, and Nadal is Borg.

Who really knows?

Of course, it’s fun to speculate anyway.

Either way, I believe that the Big 3’s numbers are highly inflated, due to their era.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Slams won in a decade:

Federer 17
Djokovic 16
Sampras 13
Nadal 13
Borg 11 (skipping AO)

Similar dominance.

Years between their first and last multi-slam season:

Federer 13
Nadal 11
Djokovic 8
Sampras 4
Borg 2

Very different longevity.

Big3's secret is longevity, not domination.
 
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JackGates

Legend
This is impossible to know. Smaller rackets, different string technology, and more diverse surfaces change everything. Toss in far worse nutrition, medicine, surgeons, training, and possibly the lack of questionable substances and we get different sports.

And lastly, the money that the best get nowadays is insane. They can afford to have a team of pros fly with them everywhere. I believe that this has a huge play in why the top players separate more from the guys ranked outside the top 50 than ever before. This has a play into why top 10 players meet each other far more often than ever before. It also affects the length of the peak of players today, which is much longer than it was 30-40 years ago.

It could be an instance where Fed is McEnroe, Djoker is Lendl, and Nadal is Borg.

Who really knows?

Of course, it’s fun to speculate anyway.

Either way, I believe that the Big 3’s numbers are highly inflated, due to their era.
Good stuff, nothing to add. Nice to see someone is still using their brains.
 

JackGates

Legend
I understand recency bias - but you are not right if you think he is better than Pete at aspects like volleying, running forehand or overhead smashes.
Also, better doesn't mean you are better, it means higher level of play. Pete would have better strokes with modern training and tehcnique and strings too, but it wasn't available at the time. If Pete was playing today, wouldn't he also be a better player? Logic say he will be. So, I don't see why people are using evolution against past greats, seems a bit unfair. Like saying Caesar was a bad general, just because Napoleon army can defeat him with technology.
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
I understand recency bias - but you are not right if you think he is better than Pete at aspects like volleying, running forehand or overhead smashes.

Dont overlook how clutch Pete was either. He was damn boring to watch sometimes because of it. Seemed like he always had a few aces up his sleeve when needed to get out of a whole.
 

JackGates

Legend
Dont overlook how clutch Pete was either. He was damn boring to watch sometimes because of it. Seemed like he always had a few aces up his sleeve when needed to get out of a whole.
I don't know why Fed changed. Fed at first was like Pete, not showing any emotion, just killer poker face, then he started to show emotions and started to lose more. At the time you never knew when Fed was tired or struggling, but now you can tell. But yeah, Pete was cool to watch, so calm all the time and not showing emotions.
 

RaulRamirez

Legend
A few insomnia-laden thoughts.

Homogenization? It's been a factor (and perhaps, a positive for all three), though I think it's been greatly overplayed as a factor. There are many players today who look at home on HC, but not on grass or clay. The true greats will find a way to achieve.

32 instead of 16 seeded players at majors: I think that's the fairer way to do it. I'd even like less randomization. Let's say that Novak is #1 and draws #17 in the first round. Is that fair to either of them? And it's not as if Roger or Rafa or Novak came on the tour as seeds - they had to earn them.

Yep, it's highly unusual that Roger, Rafa and Novak would each smash Pete's slam count, and more or less contemporaneously. This is much more subjective, but what are the odds of John, Paul and George (not dissing Ringo) all growing up near each other in Liverpool? As to tennis' Big 3, yes reasons are mentioned to "excuse" their longevity of dominance, but why overlook the obvious: They are that freakin' great, and competitive and motivated! Perhaps, Borg was similarly great, but he burned out (and didn't play the Aussie more than once, had tough luck at USO, etc) and retired early. Pete was damn good, but not (overall) as versatile or consistent.
 

JackGates

Legend
A few insomnia-laden thoughts.

Homogenization? It's been a factor (and perhaps, a positive for all three), though I think it's been greatly overplayed as a factor. There are many players today who look at home on HC, but not on grass or clay. The true greats will find a way to achieve.

32 instead of 16 seeded players at majors: I think that's the fairer way to do it. I'd even like less randomization. Let's say that Novak is #1 and draws #17 in the first round. Is that fair to either of them? And it's not as if Roger or Rafa or Novak came on the tour as seeds - they had to earn them.

Yep, it's highly unusual that Roger, Rafa and Novak would each smash Pete's slam count, and more or less contemporaneously. This is much more subjective, but what are the odds of John, Paul and George (not dissing Ringo) all growing up near each other in Liverpool? As to tennis' Big 3, yes reasons are mentioned to "excuse" their longevity of dominance, but why overlook the obvious: They are that freakin' great, and competitive and motivated! Perhaps, Borg was similarly great, but he burned out (and didn't play the Aussie more than once, had tough luck at USO, etc) and retired early. Pete was damn good, but not (overall) as versatile or consistent.
But the logic doesn't add up. In the last 50 years where barely one guy wins over 10 majors per era and in some eras nobody, now suddenly 3 guys will win over 20? The odds of that happening is so low that something has to give. Yes, they are good, but they can't be that good.
 

Mowses

New User
But the logic doesn't add up. In the last 50 years where barely one guy wins over 10 majors per era and in some eras nobody, now suddenly 3 guys will win over 20? The odds of that happening is so low that something has to give. Yes, they are good, but they can't be that good.
I think this also has to do with different play styles. For example, SnV matches had much more variance involved. I feel like today's baseline game has increased the chance that the better player also actually wins.
 

SonnyT

Legend
I understand recency bias - but you are not right if you think he is better than Pete at aspects like volleying, running forehand or overhead smashes.

Fed has more touch, better at volleying. Sampras had an overpowering serve, so his volleys often weren't that difficult. Sampras wasn't on the level on Edberg as a volleyer, for example. (I still remember Edberg, and his career started and ended before Sampras.) I think Fed is nearer Edberg at volleying than Sampras.

Both were excellent at running forehand and smashes, so it's hard to say!
 

Eren

Professional
Great players adapt and he would have developed a different way of playing if conditions required.

:rolleyes::oops:o_O
Talking about exaggeration, but your estimate is downright hilarious, to say the least.
:laughing:

Who says it would be enough to win it? He still has ZERO WTF f.e. So 'adapting to different conditions' sounds nice but why has he ZERO WTF then? Federer has proven his adaptation skills since he won AO on three different surfaces, WTF on two different surfaces. Djokovic is darn good on fast HCs as well and his adaptation skills are not much doubted by me.

But Nadal? Nope, I don't agree.
 
Fed has more touch, better at volleying. Sampras had an overpowering serve, so his volleys often weren't that difficult. Sampras wasn't on the level on Edberg as a volleyer, for example. (I still remember Edberg, and his career started and ended before Sampras.) I think Fed is nearer Edberg at volleying than Sampras.

Both were excellent at running forehand and smashes, so it's hard to say!
Highly overrating Federer’s volley skills here. Sampras and Edberg clearly had better volleys.
 
Borg, Sampras dominated tennis as much as Big3. By the age of 26 Borg had won more than all Big3s, Sampras about the same as Big3...

The difference is that Big3 did it for a longer time.

Longevity is what makes Big3 different, not homogenization and other fantasy deliriums.
This is actually true. Borg at 25 had more slams than any Big three at the same age and this even though he skipped almost all AO and also deliberately skipped one FO where he was a huge favorite. This is an outlier though.
 

netlets

Professional
Clay has always been the same. Grass too, and idc about what type of grass seed they use. Can't say that they are the same when Rafa wins RG and then proceeds to be knocked out in the 3rd of Wimbledon. So they are obviously different surfaces. Hard courts are slightly different in that the surface mixture can be changed but I would argue that the choice of balls used and the weather during the tournament are much more important factors

Have you guys ever played on grass in the US and on grass since they changed the surface in England? There is no way around it that the surface completely different. You would not win without coming to net on the old grass. Borg, who is on par with the Big 3 IMO, went from staying back all tournament and winning RG to serve and volleying at Wimbledon and winning. So you have the best backcourt player in the world serve and volleying - to 5 straight titles. Why on earth would he do that? Rafa and Djoker would never have won Wimbledon playing the style they play. Look at Lendl - best player in the world and since he wasn't as comfortable at net he couldn't get over the hump. People who think the grass hasn't drastically changed have either not played on both types of grass, or are too young to have watched the PRE - 100% rye grass Wimbledons. I have played on both - here and in England where they have the qualifying event. When you walk on a grass court today in England the surface under your feet feels like a hardcourt. I was shocked. When you bounce the ball before you serve you can bounce it over your head. Previously you needed to throw the ball down really hard to reach your knee. My forearm would be sore the next day. On the newer grass you can kick the ball pretty high on groundies and the bounce you get from your opponent allows you to easily get under the ball. On the older grass it was very difficult just to get a ball high enough to hit spin. It is like night and day today. I love the new grass and hated the old - and dislike the grass we have here in the US. The last point is that they roll the courts more, which make them harder and give a better bounce. I once played a national event on grass at Forest Hills in my age group. I lost to a guy that never switched from a continental grip since he had a great lefty serve and volley and just gave me junk to hit all match - I could barely hit my semi-western FH. You never wanted the ball to bounce. I would have beaten him soundly on a court like I played in England.
 

Start da Game

Hall of Fame
yes the record would have not been broken........once specialists died, top seeds started playing fearlessly knowing that it was always going to be a battle from the baseline at which they are superior........taking advantage of rookie finalists, fraud was the biggest beneficiary followed by the other two........
 

mahesh69a

Semi-Pro
Fed has more touch, better at volleying. Sampras had an overpowering serve, so his volleys often weren't that difficult. Sampras wasn't on the level on Edberg as a volleyer, for example. (I still remember Edberg, and his career started and ended before Sampras.) I think Fed is nearer Edberg at volleying than Sampras.
Edberg is a different matter altogether. Sampras used to pick up almost impossible volleys nearly off his shoelaces. Most objective observers would agree that Sampras was better than Fed at volleying.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Who says it would be enough to win it? He still has ZERO WTF f.e. So 'adapting to different conditions' sounds nice but why has he ZERO WTF then? Federer has proven his adaptation skills since he won AO on three different surfaces, WTF on two different surfaces. Djokovic is darn good on fast HCs as well and his adaptation skills are not much doubted by me.

But Nadal? Nope, I don't agree.

Rebound Ace, Plexicushion and...?
:oops:
 

AceSalvo

Legend
Surface homogenization or Slowing down playing conditions. Whatever it is, for sure helped those who play defensive and also helped avoid early upsets. Its obvious who they were trying to promote.
 
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magnut

Hall of Fame
Highly overrating Federer’s volley skills here. Sampras and Edberg clearly had better volleys.

LOL.... Federer's volleying skills are average at best. He may do OK in doubles but in singles you have to know how to cover net and move. Only player I put close to Edberg volleys is Rafter on a good day. And Sampras is still below that. Federers volleying skills is that of a 90s doubles specialist. I would put Jan Siemerink as a better volleyer than Federer.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
homogenization inflated the consistency stats not necessarily the slam counts. Anyways with the state of lost and next gen Sampras' record would have been smashed by all three of them no matter what.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Fed was helped by homogenization in his prime as he was able to play the same style everywhere after 04 and cruise. I'm sure he could have still adapted and put up the results he did but it would have been tougher. I doubt he would have really lost any slams though, and to his credit he did win 4 slams playing different styles on all surfaces. After his prime though Fed was definitely hurt by it as he could have turned into a fast court specialist and won more majors.
 

California

Semi-Pro
LOL.... Federer's volleying skills are average at best. He may do OK in doubles but in singles you have to know how to cover net and move. Only player I put close to Edberg volleys is Rafter on a good day. And Sampras is still below that. Federers volleying skills is that of a 90s doubles specialist. I would put Jan Siemerink as a better volleyer than Federer.
Add Becker and Mac for sure as better volliers than Fed. Fed is a good vollier, who was better earlier in his career when he did it more and was in better practice of doing it. He is ok now as a vollier, compared to the players of the past.
 

California

Semi-Pro
A few insomnia-laden thoughts.

32 instead of 16 seeded players at majors: I think that's the fairer way to do it. I'd even like less randomization. Let's say that Novak is #1 and draws #17 in the first round. Is that fair to either of them? And it's not as if Roger or Rafa or Novak came on the tour as seeds - they had to earn them

What do you mean by fair? It is what it is in a draw. The best of 32 seeds is PROTECTION for the top players, which didn't happen in the past and made slams more interesting from the beginning of the tournament. The draw is the draw. Best of 32 is too many and makes the first 3 rounds of a slam a waste to watch.

I remember Edberg losing in the first round of the US Open to Volkov, who was a good player that just missed being seeded. I hated it as an Edberg fan... but it was interesting and a tough match right away and made watching from the beginning of the tournament important.
 

mahesh69a

Semi-Pro
I remember Edberg losing in the first round of the US Open to Volkov, who was a good player that just missed being seeded. I hated it as an Edberg fan... but it was interesting and a tough match right away and made watching from the beginning of the tournament important.
Nothing of this sort can happen these days.
Tournaments nowadays don't want early upsets to major stars due to non-tennis reasons (sponsors, tickets, viewership, TV ratings etc.).
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
What do you mean by fair? It is what it is in a draw. The best of 32 seeds is PROTECTION for the top players, which didn't happen in the past and made slams more interesting from the beginning of the tournament. The draw is the draw. Best of 32 is too many and makes the first 3 rounds of a slam a waste to watch.

I remember Edberg losing in the first round of the US Open to Volkov, who was a good player that just missed being seeded. I hated it as an Edberg fan... but it was interesting and a tough match right away and made watching from the beginning of the tournament important.

Remember edbergs first round at the us open in 96 LOL. That was one of the most funny. Hey stephan here is your farwell us open...round 1....haha. If that happened today top players and fans would be screaming. Did edberg.... nope.... part of the game.
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
Add also Henman.

absolutely.. becker, henman, obvioussly mac.... all great. Federer is more a Lendl level volleyer. nothing wrong with that though. Lendl might have a slight advantage being he was a killer.

feds most underated aspect is his defense. That has suffered the most as he has gotten older and the results show sometimes. In the 90s it basically force you out of the game unless you played monster tennis. Now you can get away with it longer because the game is slower.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Nadal never sniffs a Slam outside of the FO and LOL at Djokovic being a 5 time Wimbledon champion. This is the only time that someone with no smash and limited volleying skills can win Wimbledon 5 times (Djokovic could actually volley better in 2007/2008)
 
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magnut

Hall of Fame
Nothing of this sort can happen these days.
Tournaments nowadays don't want early upsets to major stars due to non-tennis reasons (sponsors, tickets, viewership, TV ratings etc.).

thats it..... eliminate chance. Dumb down the game as much as possible and focus everything on marketing a top player as a new GOAT. Even the commentators ***** themselves out. If someone says something honest it goes viral and the attacks start happening. Most of which is orchestrated btw through on line marketing companies that are paid to protect a brand or celebrity or politician etc. etc. through social media. Long term effect players who are affraid to say anything.....leveryone ends up scripted... fake and boring. A guy like Connors would be treated like trump in todays game.
 
LOL.... Federer's volleying skills are average at best. He may do OK in doubles but in singles you have to know how to cover net and move. Only player I put close to Edberg volleys is Rafter on a good day. And Sampras is still below that. Federers volleying skills is that of a 90s doubles specialist. I would put Jan Siemerink as a better volleyer than Federer.
Rafter is every bit Edbergs equal IMO. His matches against Agassi and Goran at Wimbledon, his US Open semi against Pete and countless other matches I watched him, his volleys were always beyond impressive.
 

ChrisRF

Legend
Now you can get away with it longer because the game is slower.
The game is actually much faster today, due to the new racquets. The only exception may be grass in the 90s, but even that is debatable. Getting balls back was more difficult because of bad bounces and non-poly racquets, but not because of faster game as such.
 
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magnut

Hall of Fame
Rafter is every bit Edbergs equal IMO. His matches against Agassi and Goran at Wimbledon, his US Open semi against Pete and countless other matches I watched him, his volleys were always beyond impressive.

its close. Edberg was more ballanced....Rafter more explosive. I think Rafters last couple of years he was right there with Stephan. Once he had the belief he settled down a bit. IMO rafters last two years was his best tennis. Sadley the injuries robbed us fans and he retired way to early.

Edberg just had a certain rythem to s&v. he made s&v look really easy and smooth. Rafter was like Nadal.....you could see the work. A gritty in your face type game. Edbergs was like ballet on the court. Both unbelievable players
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
The game is actually much faster today, due to the new racquets. The only exception may be grass in the 90s, bad even that is debatable. Getting balls back was more difficult because of bad bounces and non-poly racquets, but not because of faster game as such.

slower in terms of strategy. the offensive/defensive speed. the is a difference. modern era is basically WTA or juniors speed. Its basically Agassi vs Courier or Chang vs Wilsnder every match in terms of speed. you get some good matches late in tournies but its pretty much a dud up until then. thats why your average fan only really recognizes a couple of payers... fedal.
 

Start da Game

Hall of Fame
For those thinking Nadal or Djokovic could have served and volleyed on every point to win Wimbledon, watch a pure baseliner like Lendl do that on every single point on fast grass. He had to transform his game entirely to play on grass, baseline rallies like you have now on grass were non-existent:


even your fave was never comfortable doing that.......he is a baseliner like the other two with slightly better skills at the net.......but that doesn't translate to being an outright serve and volleyer, he never was one to begin with........he was just lucky to have entered the tour in the transition era where players in their teens were still being taught to volley at the highest level........
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Who says it would be enough to win it? He still has ZERO WTF f.e. So 'adapting to different conditions' sounds nice but why has he ZERO WTF then? Federer has proven his adaptation skills since he won AO on three different surfaces, WTF on two different surfaces. Djokovic is darn good on fast HCs as well and his adaptation skills are not much doubted by me.

But Nadal? Nope, I don't agree.

Grand Slams are the PINNACLE of this sport.
The Masters, now this event is called WTF, was created in 1970, right after the beginning of the Open Era (1968).
Is undoubtely the most important tournament of the ATP.

But it will never the same prestige as the 4 Majors, especially now, when the AO has made so many efforts over time for the best tennis players in the world to come to Melbourne.

Although the difference in points for the champion is only 500 points (2000 for the winner of each GS tournament, 1500 for the winner if he does it undefeated), the significance is not the same and never will be.

The maximum achievement for each of the tennis players will be the champions of the Majors tournaments (with permission to reach number 1) and that is what the fans will remember forever.
The rest is secondary.
 

JasonZ

Hall of Fame
Federer yes, would still sit on at least 20. He is simply better than Sampras.

Nadal yes, would still win 13 french opens and would definetely manage to win at least two other grand slams, so he would have at least 15 slams, but less than 19.

Djokovic not sure.
 

Eren

Professional
Grand Slams are the PINNACLE of this sport.
The Masters, now this event is called WTF, was created in 1970, right after the beginning of the Open Era (1968).
Is undoubtely the most important tournament of the ATP.

But it will never the same prestige as the 4 Majors, especially now, when the AO has made so many efforts over time for the best tennis players in the world to come to Melbourne.

Although the difference in points for the champion is only 500 points (2000 for the winner of each GS tournament, 1500 for the winner if he does it undefeated), the significance is not the same and never will be.

The maximum achievement for each of the tennis players will be the champions of the Majors tournaments (with permission to reach number 1) and that is what the fans will remember forever.
The rest is secondary.

Okay, same story but then with the AO when the courts played faster. Has never won it.

Rebound Ace, Plexicushion and...?
:oops:

I phrased it wrong. OMG, my point is completely invalid about Federer (LOL of course not).

Condition 1: 04-07: Rebound Ace (medium to slow); Federer won in 2004, 2006 and 2007
Condition 2: 08-15 (I think it was 15): SLOW Plexicushion; Federer won in 2010 and Nadal won in 2009
Condition 3: 16-Present: Medium Plexicushion; Federer won in 2017 and 2018

Three sort of conditions no? Nadal won in 09 when it was slow as f-ck.

Hasn't won in 04-07 (you could say he was too young blabla, fair enough)
Hasn't won in 16-present either.

How did he adapt to these changing conditions at the AO which didn't favour his game because of the lower bounce? If you ask me, not so good.
 

RaulRamirez

Legend
What do you mean by fair? It is what it is in a draw. The best of 32 seeds is PROTECTION for the top players, which didn't happen in the past and made slams more interesting from the beginning of the tournament. The draw is the draw. Best of 32 is too many and makes the first 3 rounds of a slam a waste to watch.

I remember Edberg losing in the first round of the US Open to Volkov, who was a good player that just missed being seeded. I hated it as an Edberg fan... but it was interesting and a tough match right away and made watching from the beginning of the tournament important.
That's your opinion, as above is (some of) mine. I think that from at least the R of 32 on (in majors) that players should be seeded by ranking, and matched up strictly numerically. Of course, upsets can still happen and either complicate or open up the draw, and a #29 can be playing better than a #9 or represent a tougher matchup for his opponent. There is still variation.

How many seeds would you "protect"? Even if protecting 32, that still means that 33-128 can be thrown in randomly.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Okay, same story but then with the AO when the courts played faster. Has never won it.



I phrased it wrong. OMG, my point is completely invalid about Federer (LOL of course not).

Condition 1: 04-07: Rebound Ace (medium to slow); Federer won in 2004, 2006 and 2007
Condition 2: 08-15 (I think it was 15): SLOW Plexicushion; Federer won in 2010 and Nadal won in 2009
Condition 3: 16-Present: Medium Plexicushion; Federer won in 2017 and 2018

Three sort of conditions no? Nadal won in 09 when it was slow as f-ck.

Hasn't won in 04-07 (you could say he was too young blabla, fair enough)
Hasn't won in 16-present either.

How did he adapt to these changing conditions at the AO which didn't favour his game because of the lower bounce? If you ask me, not so good.


So, according to your point, Federer won 5 US Open titles in medium/fast Decoturf (until 2009) and nothing in slow Decoturf (since 2010).
 

Eren

Professional
So, according to your point, Federer won 5 US Open titles in medium/fast Decoturf (until 2009) and nothing in slow Decoturf (since 2010).

Yes actually he did. But he won like AO on 3 conditions, WTF on three conditions (slowpoke courts of nowadays, fast Shanghai and last but not least outdoor as well in 03/04).

So mention 6 examples for the Nadal of which 3 on Slam level no?

Fed did his adjusting and proved it by winning f.e. the AO in different conditions. Still better than nothing.

What does Nadal have to prove that he can adjust to win Wimbledon on fast courts because that was the point of our discussion. A point you made and I reacted to. What actual prove do you have that is factual?
 
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