Am I doing the WTE?

Sk88 · Sep 9, 2020

Momentarily after the trophy position and going into the drop my racquet faces the sky as in waiters position. I then go into the drop and come up with edge on ball (mostly) and pronate. Is this a big deal? Very confusing to what actually constitutes waiters tray error

Added some short clips. If you slow playback speed down to .25 it will be easy to see.

If it’s something I should change some tips to stop it happening would be appreciated.

I have only been serving for about 3 weeks now as I just took up tennis in March. Due to coronavirus have had a lot of free time so have been practising 10-20 hours a week. My groundstrokes are pretty down pat and serve is the final piece of the puzzle

I am still working on the right take back motion for me so will see slight differences in the vids

Put the quality up to 480p for clearer view obviously. Last one is slow motion

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 9, 2020

@Sk88

You are doing the WT but not the way that most are criticized for it.

The common way is to get into the WT position and never get out of it: the racquet stays flat from the time the WT position is achieved until contact.

You, OTOH, are getting into the WT position fairly early and then coming out of it and going on edge. From that point on, it's a non-WT serve, IMO. It's only a question of how soon your racquet face opens up, which is the same thing we all struggle with.

I'd argue it's more important what your racquet is doing just prior to contact than well before contact.

In your "4slomo" video at the last frame of 0:11, you are definitely in a WT position. However, way more important is how long you can maintain the edge before pronating. You do show the edge but it's impossible to tell for how long.

Now, some could argue that by being in the WT position at 0:11 it makes it more difficult to undo it and present the edge and then pronate. I can see logic to that. I'd prefer you never got into the WT position in the first place. But fixing it wouldn't be my #1 priority. And you have some good things going on with your serve.

However, I'm no serve expert and I'm sure there are others who will offer more concise analysis.

Sk88 · Sep 9, 2020

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
@Sk88

You are doing the WT but not the way that most are criticized for it.

The common way is to get into the WT position and never get out of it: the racquet stays flat from the time the WT position is achieved until contact.

You, OTOH, are getting into the WT position fairly early and then coming out of it and going on edge. From that point on, it's a non-WT serve, IMO. It's only a question of how soon your racquet face opens up, which is the same thing we all struggle with.

I'd argue it's more important what your racquet is doing just prior to contact than well before contact.

In your "4slomo" video at the last frame of 0:11, you are definitely in a WT position. However, way more important is how long you can maintain the edge before pronating. You do show the edge but it's impossible to tell for how long.

Now, some could argue that by being in the WT position at 0:11 it makes it more difficult to undo it and present the edge and then pronate. I can see logic to that. I'd prefer you never got into the WT position in the first place. But fixing it wouldn't be my #1 priority. And you have some good things going on with your serve.

However, I'm no serve expert and I'm sure there are others who will offer more concise analysis.

Thanks mate,

Watching it frame by frame I guess I am really not on edge that long after the drop.

Do you have any tips to not reach that wt after trophy, it seems to happen naturally when I start the throwing motion.

Thinking maybe change the position of the racquet face at trophy, more towards a would be opponent then the side fence

Digital Atheist · Sep 9, 2020

Sk88 said:
Momentarily after the trophy position and going into the drop my racquet faces the sky as in waiters position. I then go into the drop and come up with edge on ball (mostly) and pronate. Is this a big deal? Very confusing to what actually constitutes waiters tray error

Added some short clips. If you slow playback speed down to .25 it will be easy to see.

If it’s something I should change some tips to stop it happening would be appreciated.

I have only been serving for about 3 weeks now as I just took up tennis in March. Due to coronavirus have had a lot of free time so have been practising 10-20 hours a week. My groundstrokes are pretty down pat and serve is the final piece of the puzzle

I am still working on the right take back motion for me so will see slight differences in the vids

Put the quality up to 480p for clearer view obviously. Last one is slow motion

Not really, at least not the traditional definition which actually refers to the way the racquet approached the ball from the racquet drop (and as you rightly point out you manage to rescue your serve .... almost).

It is quite acceptable to have a slightly open racquet face going into the drop (several professionals with big serves use this technique including Sampras and Federer), but yours is probably bordering on the extreme and imo is too open to be able to perform what some would call the "high level serve". Your racquet drop is suboptimal and you have the following problem:

Lots of good videos on how to address the waiter's tray error on YouTube:

How to Correct The Waiter's Serve In Tennis

http://www.feeltennis.net/correcting-the-waiters-serve/ Opening of the racquet face too early in the swing is called a waiter's serve in the tennis coaching ...

www.youtube.com

How To FIX SERVE The “Waiter’s Tray” Serve Problem NOW (Simple Serve Drills) Part I

Serve myths debunked: Former Top 100 ATP Pro, Jeff Salzenstein, is exposing 3 common myths that could be crippling your serve potential. Most players make at...

www.youtube.com

How to Fix the Waiter Tennis Serve

Get the Intuitive Tennis iPhone/iPad App https://apple.co/3c5IyJpOne of the most common problems on the serve at the recreational level is a shallow or no...

www.youtube.com

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 9, 2020

Sk88 said:
Thanks mate,

Watching it frame by frame I guess I am really not on edge that long after the drop.

Do you have any tips to not reach that wt after trophy, it seems to happen naturally when I start the throwing motion.

Thinking maybe change the position of the racquet face at trophy, more towards a would be opponent then the side fence

I think it's a two-pronged issue:
- Avoiding the WT position early in your loop
- Avoiding the WT position as you start the upward part of the swing before contact

Of the two, the 2nd is way more important.

To practice, try hitting the ball on edge: keep the racquet on edge all of the way until contact just to get the feel for what it's like to hold the racquet on edge for that long. Then back off a bit. This is something I need to work on too because I also open the face too early.

As far as remedying #1, the only reason I'd fix it is if it was making #2 more difficult.

One technique is to envision yourself wearing one of those conical party hats and sweeping your serving hand across the top of your head to knock the hat off with your palm facing downward towards the top of your head. This will naturally avoid the WT position that you're getting into at 0:11. Note: I have yet to try this because there are other, bigger flaws with my serve that I'm working on fixing first.

Sk88 · Sep 9, 2020

Digital Atheist said:
Not really, at least not the traditional definition which actually refers to the way the racquet approached the ball from the racquet drop (and as you rightly point out you manage to rescue your serve .... almost).

It is quite acceptable to have a slightly open racquet face going into the drop (several professionals with big serves use this technique including Sampras and Federer), but yours is probably bordering on the extreme and imo is too open to be able to perform what some would call the "high level serve". Your racquet drop is suboptimal and you have the following problem:

Lots of good videos on how to address the waiter's tray error on YouTube:

How to Correct The Waiter's Serve In Tennis

http://www.feeltennis.net/correcting-the-waiters-serve/ Opening of the racquet face too early in the swing is called a waiter's serve in the tennis coaching ...

www.youtube.com

How To FIX SERVE The “Waiter’s Tray” Serve Problem NOW (Simple Serve Drills) Part I

Serve myths debunked: Former Top 100 ATP Pro, Jeff Salzenstein, is exposing 3 common myths that could be crippling your serve potential. Most players make at...

www.youtube.com

How to Fix the Waiter Tennis Serve

Get the Intuitive Tennis iPhone/iPad App https://apple.co/3c5IyJpOne of the most common problems on the serve at the recreational level is a shallow or no...

www.youtube.com

thanks mate,

that last video pretty much answered my question that the open face drop is ok. Obviously my drop is not perfect and a bit too open as you said but at least I can confidently work on it instead of scrapping it altogether and starting over.

I don’t think my drop is as bad as the X guy in your first video but agree it definitely needs some work. Another good video. Thanks again
Edit: Actually no you are right it is that bad after going frame by frame through the slomo vid.

Steady Eddy · Sep 9, 2020

Looking good! You've learned a lot about tennis during Covid. When the quarantine ends, enter a tournament, and tell us how it went.

user92626 · Sep 10, 2020

OP,

You are doing a waiter tray serve thing.

You're the umpteenth player that's using a wrong hand motion for swinging. You're doing the elbow extending as a main force which is elementary and wrong.

The correct motion is to keep the elbow at a certain angle and extension done minimally but the main arm leverage is from ISR aka arm wresting motion (a much more powerful action) or base ball hurling. See Federer's. Again, your motion is a baby's natural type. It's not an advance motion for sports.

Me and other posters dicussed this extensively in a separate thread. Follow some coach's instructions there and rebuild your serve slowly, piece by piece.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/need-help-with-serve.677849/#post-14567711

Sk88 · Sep 10, 2020

user92626 said:
OP,

You are doing a waiter tray serve thing.

You're the umpteenth player that's using a wrong hand motion for swinging. You're doing the elbow extending as a main force which is elementary and wrong.

The correct motion is to keep the elbow at a certain angle and extension done minimally but the main arm leverage is from ISR aka arm wresting motion (a much more powerful action) or base ball hurling. See Federer's. Again, your motion is a baby's natural type. It's not an advance motion for sports.

Me and other posters dicussed this extensively in a separate thread. Follow some coach's instructions there and rebuild your serve slowly, piece by piece.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/need-help-with-serve.677849/#post-14567711

“elementary” “a baby’s natural type”

My swing isn’t perfect but this is a over exaggeration/attempted insult

thanks for the link though..

user92626 · Sep 10, 2020

Sk88 said:
“elementary” “a baby’s natural type”

My swing isn’t perfect but this is a over exaggeration/attempted insult

thanks for the link though..

You play tennis competition and you get offended by these words?

I said a baby's natural type of throwing because that's what it is -- Just about nobody needs to learn to throw via extending at the elbow and they all can do it. It's natural since birth. Imo, there's nothing insulting about the concept. Everyone was a baby and a beginner once upon a time. Many of us learn tennis for fun. It's nonessential or really not character-defining.

You're welcome with the link.

Do you recognize the difference? It took me several years and countless useless instructions before I ran into those arm swing instructions. Would have saved me all the time and effort.

Friedman Whip · Sep 10, 2020

Sk88 said:
Momentarily after the trophy position and going into the drop my racquet faces the sky as in waiters position. I then go into the drop and come up with edge on ball (mostly) and pronate. Is this a big deal? Very confusing to what actually constitutes waiters tray error

You don't have a great grip for serving. Way too much toward a forehand grip. Needs to be more toward continental. Changing grip will screw you up for awhile until you readjust but it should eliminate the WT look. That's why I'll bet you won't do it. Because you'll keep looking for an easier fix. Good luck.

user92626 · Sep 10, 2020

Most adults would naturally throw like the following. You can see how they launch an object by extending at the elbow and opening up their palm. Look familiar to the waiter serving?

Sk88 · Sep 10, 2020

Friedman Whip said:
You don't have a great grip for serving. Way too much toward a forehand grip. Needs to be more toward continental. Changing grip will screw you up for awhile until you readjust but it should eliminate the WT look. That's why I'll bet you won't do it. Because you'll keep looking for an easier fix. Good luck.

I’ll keep looking for an easier fix? Is that why I posted asking for tips? Good logic.

I’ve only been serving for 3 weeks so I’m hardly set in my ways. I will take your tip on board

Sk88 · Sep 10, 2020

user92626 said:
OP,

You are doing a waiter tray serve thing.

You're the umpteenth player that's using a wrong hand motion for swinging. You're doing the elbow extending as a main force which is elementary and wrong.

The correct motion is to keep the elbow at a certain angle and extension done minimally but the main arm leverage is from ISR aka arm wresting motion (a much more powerful action) or base ball hurling. See Federer's. Again, your motion is a baby's natural type. It's not an advance motion for sports.

Me and other posters dicussed this extensively in a separate thread. Follow some coach's instructions there and rebuild your serve slowly, piece by piece.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/need-help-with-serve.677849/#post-14567711

Is this what you are saying? Video is time stamped

red rook · Sep 10, 2020

Looks like a forehand grip. IMO #1 change at this point.

Sk88 · Sep 10, 2020

red rook said:
Looks like a forehand grip. IMO #1 change at this point.

It’s definitely continental. Might be more towards eastern forehand then backhand side on a conti grip but 1st knuckle is always on bevel 2

LeeD · Sep 10, 2020

Serve looks good enough.

user92626 · Sep 10, 2020

Sk88 said:
Is this what you are saying? Video is time stamped

I don't know. I couldn't understand much from this coach. If you could, good for you.

However, I was referring to the following instruction which should show you the correct arm action to learn.

This coach's break-down is also great. Exactly same correct motion.

Sk88 · Sep 10, 2020

user92626 said:
I don't know. I couldn't understand much from this coach. If you could, good for you.

However, I was referring to the following instruction which should show you the correct arm action to learn.

This coach's break-down is also great. Exactly same correct motion.

Thanks, Will do these drills. Second one looks great

xFullCourtTenniSx · Sep 10, 2020

Sk88 said:
It’s definitely continental. Might be more towards eastern forehand then backhand side on a conti grip but 1st knuckle is always on bevel 2

Continental forehands exist.

Sk88 said:

This is an incredibly difficult position to reach with a backhand grip unless you have a very flexible wrist and/or are forcing something.

It's also a very common thing for beginners and intermediate players to unconsciously change to a forehand grip during the swing due to old habits (for intermediates trying to change) or being far more intuitive (for beginners).

So the point still exists. Looks like a forehand grip, #1 change to look into.

Slowtwitcher · Sep 10, 2020

Grip, grip, grip!!!

Chas Tennis · Sep 10, 2020

Sk88 said:
Momentarily after the trophy position and going into the drop my racquet faces the sky as in waiters position. I then go into the drop and come up with edge on ball (mostly) and pronate. Is this a big deal? Very confusing to what actually constitutes waiters tray error

Added some short clips. If you slow playback speed down to .25 it will be easy to see.

If it’s something I should change some tips to stop it happening would be appreciated.

I am still working on the right take back motion for me so will see slight differences in the vids

Put the quality up to 480p for clearer view obviously. Last one is slow motion
.................................................................................................

I would not call it a Waiter's Tray.

ISR Demo - Hold your racket at 135 degrees to your straight arm. Hold your arm straight out from the shoulder. Rotate your upper arm bone so that your entire arm rotates. Nothing fast, but realize that if there is an angle between the straight arm and racket shaft, that you produce racket head speed when the upper arm is rotated at the shoulder joint. That's internal shoulder rotation (ISR) for the serve.

On a high level serve there are some things going on approaching the ball:
1) The elbow is straightening.
2) Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) start to impact (watch the upper arm rotate by seeing the elbow shadows rotate like a top = ISR)
3) The angle between the forearm and racket shaft changes near the wrist.

These motions each have a sequence and they overlap in timing. First, see if you can compare your serve and especially compare the approach to the ball frame-by-frame.

For stop action in Youtube use the period & comma keys. Whenever you select a video always use the Alt key + Left Mouse Click, otherwise the video starts playing. For best comparisons, find the same camera angles.

This video has pauses to read the text. Stop and then hold down the period key to play through the pauses. But go single frame for the approach to the ball. Consider the demo and pick out the ISR in the pro serves.

To video ISR directly and no more fooling around -

How to Directly Video Internal Shoulder Rotation on the Tennis Serve

The shoulder joint with humerus doing internal shoulder rotation (ISR). I don't see any pronation. Slow playback. Go full screen. For single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. The humerus is rotated by ISR during the high level serve. ISR is the joint motion that provides the...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Safety issue on how to hold your upper arm to the shoulder joint to minimize the risks of impingement on the serve.
Search: Ellenbecker Rotator Cuff Injury impingement Whiteside Chas

Dragy · Sep 11, 2020

Sk88 said:
I’ll keep looking for an easier fix? Is that why I posted asking for tips? Good logic.

Don’t take it all as an insult, we can be harsh here and pushy with some concepts we admire (usually ones which seemed to have helped us personally). Still everybody trusts he’s trying to help and rescue

I would listen to those speaking of grip. If you think it’s conti, maybe with FH flare - well, use conti with BH flare.

Your overall dynamics looks good for me, you are picking it rather fast for a newcomer.

Sk88 · Sep 11, 2020

Dragy said:
Don’t take it all as an insult, we can be harsh here and pushy with some concepts we admire (usually ones which seemed to have helped us personally). Still everybody trusts he’s trying to help and rescue

I would listen to those speaking of grip. If you think it’s conti, maybe with FH flare - well, use conti with BH flare.

Your overall dynamics looks good for me, you are picking it rather fast for a newcomer.

Thanks mate definitely taking all tips on board. Will likely just start from scratch again and use the vids and tips here as reference.

@Friedman Whip lil add on “That's why I'll bet you won't do it. Because you'll keep looking for an easier fix. Good luck.” was completely unnecessary and out of place as he knows not a thing about me or my personality/work ethic.

Dragy · Sep 11, 2020

Hasn't been posted yet, imho one of best progressions to make true conti or BH-conti grip work:

Friedman Whip · Sep 11, 2020

Sk88 said:
Thanks mate definitely taking all tips on board. Will likely just start from scratch again and use the vids and tips here as reference.

@Friedman Whip lil add on “That's why I'll bet you won't do it. Because you'll keep looking for an easier fix. Good luck.” was completely unnecessary and out of place as he knows not a thing about me or my personality/work ethic.

Didn't mean for it to be taken so personal. I'm just saying what in my experience seems to be what most people do. And putting things the way I did is sort of a challenge. Telling some people that they can't do something is sometimes the best motivation to get them to do it. But hen again in your case there would be no reason to change your grip if you think there is nothing wrong with it in the first place.

I do wish you good luck really, and I wouldn't suggest starting from scratch again. IM(NS)HO you do so many things right now. Very good stance, great knee bend action, nice leap off the court into the ball, good body behind the serve - you look like a very good athletic guy. Overall really excellent for playing only as long as you have.
So I say good luck to you again.

Digital Atheist · Sep 11, 2020

Sk88 said:
thanks mate,

that last video pretty much answered my question that the open face drop is ok. Obviously my drop is not perfect and a bit too open as you said but at least I can confidently work on it instead of scrapping it altogether and starting over.
[..]

Yeah your drop is not as bad as the demo in the video and is probably not that big a deal; it's more the path of your racquet from the deepest part of your drop to contact (as others have pointed out) and that's something that can be fixed with some of those drills.

Also, this may or may not be helpful but you can experiment with certain timings. You have a pinpoint stance and step up quite early with your right (back) leg and almost have to hold your deepest knee bend for a moment (this certainly seems to happen sometimes and might be dependent on your toss). Having to hold a slight knee bend leaks energy for when you really go at the ball. Maybe try to delay the back leg step up just a fraction and think step up then go hard at the ball. Wawrinka is a player who steps up quite early, but he steps and then bends/arches so he isn't in a static knee bend position. This is probably minor but it's easy to tinker with since there are no motion changes, only timing changes.

One other observation - even though in the deuce court your toss is fine, maybe even a little too much to the right, you somehow still end up falling considerably left on the follow through/landing. That's really interesting and I don't know how it's happening (falling a little left is OK, but not usually off a toss that's to the right).

There's no way you need to "start over" since you are getting decent contact and pace despite some technical issues, and there aren't that many things that need to happen to really improve it. This guy has quite an open drop, close to yours actually, and he wanted to make it less open. Your motions do have some similarities (early step on pinpoint stance, very open drop, similar takeback), so you could use him as your model (using video comparison).

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 11, 2020

@Sk88,

To illustrate the point I made, compare your serve to the dark shirt guy here:

He gets into a WT position early and stays in that position all the way through contact.

IMO, you are not doing that. You get into WT early, come out of it, approach the ball on edge, and then come out of it before contact. The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer but at least some of your swing path is spent on edge.

Again, the best argument against what you're doing is that it makes it harder to come out of the WT position than if you had never gotten into it in the first place.

ballmachineguy · Sep 11, 2020

Friedman Whip said:
You don't have a great grip for serving. Way too much toward a forehand grip. Needs to be more toward continental. Changing grip will screw you up for awhile until you readjust but it should eliminate the WT look. Good luck.

No, no,no. No easy fix that will immediately improve his problem. What fun is that? Need to look at ISR, ESR. Maybe a little IRS, "will need to see 5 years of returns."

Sk88 · Sep 11, 2020

@Friedman Whip thanks mate. Will take all on board

@Digital Atheist solid tips again. Will work on the timing issue, might see how the platform stance goes too. Plenty to experiment with. Not sure why I fall to the left, maybe I’m trying to incorporate the torque motion too much. That video is great as he has the same problem as me, though he is more advanced. Thanks again

@S&V-not_dead_yet definitely going to work on ways to avoid or at least minimise the severity of it. Maybe I’m not relaxed enough going into the drop along with too extreme grip

will get to work on it and update this thread on the progress. Thanks for everyones input.

@ballmachineguy zzzzzzz. That’s one been done already

Chas Tennis · Sep 11, 2020

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
@Sk88,
..................You get into WT early, come out of it, approach the ball on edge, and then come out of it before contact. The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer but at least some of your swing path is spent on edge.
.........................

I believe that posters and readers should be viewing clear high speed videos when they talk about 'edge on' or 'on edge' then use the words to make their points.

1) Could you define what you mean by "on edge"?

2) and explain the comment about advanced players?
"You............... approach the ball on edge, and then come out of it before contact. The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer but at least some of your swing path is spent on edge." ?

3) Can you find a video to illustrate how "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...."?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 12, 2020

Chas Tennis said:
I believe that posters and readers should be viewing clear high speed videos when they talk about 'edge on' or 'on edge' then use the words to make their points.

1) Could you define what you mean by "on edge"?

Assume I am right-handed [because I am].
The edge refers to the frame of the racquet.
If I contact my serve with the racquet face roughly parallel to the net and directed at where I want to serve, that would be the opposite of "on edge".
If I supinate 90 degrees, the strings will now be facing the left fence. The edge of the racquet is now pointing towards the ball.

The reason I supinate is because now I have the space to pronate: my racquet will go through a 180 degree change where the strings were facing the left fence before contact and then face the right fence after contact.

2) and explain the comment about advanced players?
"You............... approach the ball on edge, and then come out of it before contact. The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer but at least some of your swing path is spent on edge." ?

Dark shirt guy displays a lower-level serve by maintaining the WT orientation from the time he achieves it all the way until contact. At no time during the swing path does the edge ever get presented to the ball; only the strings. Thus he's missing out on 90 of the 180 degrees of pronation. It's still possible for him to pronate after contact but after the 4ms of time when the ball is actually on the strings, I'm not sure that will have much of an effect.

After coming out of the racquet drop position, advanced players tend to have the edge pointing towards the ball; dark-shirt, for example, does not.

Furthermore, advanced players tend to maintain the edge for a longer period of time, whereas lesser players, even if they start out on edge, prematurely pronate 90 degrees and now the strings face the ball.

I was taught that the longer you maintain the edge, the shorter amount of time you have to switch from -90 degrees to +90 degrees and thus the more action you'll get on the ball due to pronation.

3) Can you find a video to illustrate how "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...."?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tennis+serve+edge

Raonic is featured here:

Here, Andy Gerst has a great example [better than Raonic's because of the camera angle]:

After his racquet reaches the nadir of the arc and starts coming upwards [say, when the racquet is aligned with his right shoulder], the side of the racquet he will use for contact is facing roughly to the left [he's a righty].

As he moves through the motion, the racquet maintains this position well into the swing, maybe until the racquet face is 2' above his head. This is what I refer to as "holding/maintaining the edge".

A lower-level player would have lost that edge positioning well before that. And some, like dark-shirt, never achieve it.

Chas Tennis · Sep 12, 2020

Thanks for presenting your evidence. I'll look at in more detail later today. (Smoke is first priority again today.)

Here are some pictures and videos showing some angles of the high level serve. These videos were selected to show the angles in the last few feet of the racket approaching the ball.

Tennis Serve - Forearm-Racket Angles for Flat, Slice & Kick Impacts??

Background. For the tennis serve consider the forearm-racket angle when the racket impacts the ball. The forearm-racket angle only at impact is of interest for this thread. The forearm-racket angle will vary a lot as seen from different camera views (see comment & demo at end). The...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

When I look from the time of the Big L Position to the racket moving to impact, I don't see
"The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." I don't believe that is true.

I do see an arm becoming near straight at the elbow, the entire near straight arm rotating and the forearm-to-racket angle becoming larger, the racket edges turn as seen in videos. I can't find ".......the racquet on edge longer....".

Can you see "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." in this picture? To me the entire arm rotates from ISR with elbow becoming near straight and the forearm to racket angle becomes larger to impact. What is the racket "on edge" to?

The useful description is that the lower red arrow shows the racket edge on to the ball at one instant.

That is so important because over 60% of active tennis players serve with a Waiter Tray Technique and for those players at that racket position, the racket face faces the sky. That is one established checkpoint that I and others use all the time to determine if players have a Waiter's Tray or might have a high level technique using ISR.

It seems to me that the usages of the term "on edge" and "edge on" have morphed on the forum and internet instruction and means very different things to forum posters and others.

But when you say "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." that - I don't think you will be able to find in videos. We might settle what is true or not.

If the OP always uses high speed videos instead of word descriptions from many posters, he avoids using the word descriptions that can be misleading.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/serve-help.612246/

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 12, 2020

Chas Tennis said:
Thanks for presenting your evidence. I'll look at in in more detail later today.

Here are some videos showing some angles of the high level serve. These videos were selected to show the angles in the last few feet of the racket approaching the ball.

When I look at the time of the Big L Position and the racket moving to impact I don't see
"The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...."

I do see an arm finishing becoming near straight at the elbow, the near straight arm rotating and the forearm-to-racket angle straightening to become larger. I can't find ".......the racquet on edge longer....".

Can you see "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." in this picture?

The useful description is that the lower red arrow shows the racket edge on to the ball at one instant.

That is so important because over 60% of active tennis players serve with a Waiter Tray Technique and for those players at the racket position the racket face faces the sky. That is one established checkpoint that I and others use all the time to determine if players have a Waiter's Tray or might have a high level technique using ISR.

It seems to me that the usage of the term "on edge" and "edge on" have morphed on the forum and internet instruction and means very different things to forum posters and others.

But when you say "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." that I don't think you will be able to find in videos we might settle what is true or not.

I see it in Gerst's and Raonic's. The one you included has a different racquet orientation so I do not see it there.

I'd argue that Gerst's/Raonic's method is simpler because their racquet face doesn't go through as much change as the player you cited. But there certainly is more than one way of achieving the same end.

So maybe it's more accurate to state "The advanced players pronate [which lower players do not] and through a larger angle range [180+ degrees vs 90 or less] than lower-level players."?

Your picture shows 270 degrees, if I'm seeing it correctly. A WT serve with no pronation is basically 0 degrees.

However, I have no idea how many degrees the typical high-level player moves through. Gerst and Raonic are 180, as far as I can tell. And they do hold their racquet on edge, as I've defined it and as the various videos demonstrated it.

Maybe the reason your example player doesn't hold it on edge is because he has 90 more degrees to move through and thus doesn't have time to hold any particular position.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 12, 2020

Chas Tennis said:
Thanks for presenting your evidence. I'll look at in more detail later today. (Smoke is first priority again today.)

Here are some videos showing some angles of the high level serve. These videos were selected to show the angles in the last few feet of the racket approaching the ball.

Tennis Serve - Forearm-Racket Angles for Flat, Slice & Kick Impacts??

Background. For the tennis serve consider the forearm-racket angle when the racket impacts the ball. The forearm-racket angle only at impact is of interest for this thread. The forearm-racket angle will vary a lot as seen from different camera views (see comment & demo at end). The...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

When I look at the time of the Big L Position and the racket moving to impact I don't see
"The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." I don't believe that it is there.

I do see an arm becoming near straight at the elbow, the near straight arm rotating and the forearm-to-racket angle straightening to become larger, the racket edges turn as seen in videos. I can't find ".......the racquet on edge longer....".

Can you see "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." in this picture?

The useful description is that the lower red arrow shows the racket edge on to the ball at one instant.

That is so important because over 60% of active tennis players serve with a Waiter Tray Technique and for those players at that racket position, the racket face faces the sky. That is one established checkpoint that I and others use all the time to determine if players have a Waiter's Tray or might have a high level technique using ISR.

It seems to me that the usages of the term "on edge" and "edge on" have morphed on the forum and internet instruction and means very different things to forum posters and others.

But when you say "The advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer...." that - I don't think you will be able to find in videos. We might settle what is true or not.

If the OP always uses high speed videos instead of word descriptions from many posters, he avoids using the word descriptions that can be misleading.

@BeatlesFan just posted this picture that seems to align with what Gerst and Ranoic are doing:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/whats-the-average-body-fat-percentage-of-a-top-50-atp-player.678714/post-14601859

Chas Tennis · Sep 12, 2020

What is the time of the video that you are referring to?

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
............................................................................................
Here, Andy Gerst has a great example [better than Raonic's because of the camera angle]:

After his racquet reaches the nadir of the arc and starts coming upwards [say, when the racquet is aligned with his right shoulder], the side of the racquet he will use for contact is facing roughly to the left [he's a righty].

As he moves through the motion, the racquet maintains this position well into the swing, maybe until the racquet face is 2' above his head. This is what I refer to as "holding/maintaining the edge".

A lower-level player would have lost that edge positioning well before that. And some, like dark-shirt, never achieve it.

Chas Tennis · Sep 12, 2020

Can you see
".....advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer " ?

I see no "keep the racquet on edge longer".

I attribute this rare overhead view to ISR with rotational acceleration. I hardly ever consider the follow through because it can vary after impact. From start of ISR to impact does not vary very much. Maybe 60-90 degrees is a rough estimated for ISR start to impact on pro serves. You can take a protractor and measure the angles on these pictures by the racket shaft, but the start of ISR is not shown in these GIFS. It would be in FYB videos.

This is a good camera view to always look at to check how you describe serve motions. It is loaded with other important observations. But it would be better to have overhead views of the current top servers.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 12, 2020

Chas Tennis said:
What is the time of the video that you are referring to?

If you single step through, find the first frame where 0:18 turns to 0:19 then go forward 10 more frames.

"After his racquet reaches the nadir of the arc and starts coming upwards [say, when the racquet is aligned with his right shoulder], the side of the racquet he will use for contact is facing roughly to the left [he's a righty]."

S&V-not_dead_yet · Sep 12, 2020

Chas Tennis said:
Can you see
".....advanced players keep the racquet on edge longer " ?

I see no "keep the racquet on edge longer".

Based on your first image, in post #34 I modified my statement to

"So maybe it's more accurate to state "The advanced players pronate [which lower players do not] and through a larger angle range [180+ degrees vs 90 or less] than lower-level players."?"

Again, I believe I see this in Gerst, Raonic, and Fucsovics. What do you see?

Chas Tennis · Sep 12, 2020

I find the Big L Position (the arm and racket form a big upside down "L") then I look at the motion to the ball as starting when ISR starts. I look at the racket to be about "edge on to the ball" for an instant at the Big L Position. I believe that many tennis coaches and instructors do the same. Search: Hi Techtennis. Big L Position, Waiter's Tray Error

I don't know much about racket edge positions at any other times or positions of the service motion, such as racket drop, during supination, etc. I can always pull up a video to look at any position or time of the serve rather than try to remember it or use phrases of a few words to describe it. Posters have to specify the location in the motion (6" from impact the racket face suddenly turns to face the ball) or it is very unclear what they mean.

This seems the simplest usage of the term 'edge on to the ball'.

I usually use my terms in association with a clear video frame.

Raonic has been a model server for me.

Gerst has very good ISR and his elbow shadows show it. However, at 3:11 he demonstrates "full extension" incorrectly and not like his serve, so I would double check his demos before believing them.

user92626 · Sep 12, 2020

Are @Chas Tennis and @S&V-not_dead_yet really bickering over "keep the racquet on edge longer " ?

"longer" is totally a subjective, arbitrary word. I can't believe these guys debating over it.

Is 6 inches long? guys

Chas Tennis · Sep 13, 2020

Going toward the ball, the OP has a Frankenstein Serve, a few tennis terms from here, a few tennis terms from there, all put together for what we see........................

Sk88 · Sep 13, 2020

Chas Tennis said:
Going toward the ball, the OP has a Frankenstein Serve, a few tennis terms from here, a few tennis terms from there, all put together for what we see........................

can you explain further please? Mainly going toward the ball bit

Sk88 · Sep 13, 2020

To preface I am still trying to lessen my wt to begin the drop. I have already seen improvement in speed by doing so but I found this video interesting and some of you may too

Some very big servers with a open face take back

Chas Tennis · Sep 14, 2020

Sk88 said:
can you explain further please? Mainly going toward the ball bit

It does not look right to me. I suggested a close up video showing your arm especially to see ISR clearly.

Have you compared frame-by-frame and listed all differences as described in post #22? If you compare your impact frame to impact in the video above you, what differences can you see?

Chas Tennis · Sep 14, 2020

Sk88 said:
To preface I am still trying to lessen my wt to begin the drop. I have already seen improvement in speed by doing so but I found this video interesting and some of you may too

Some very big servers with a open face take back

I have not studied that part of the serve much for racket face angle or after impact. I emphasize working back from impact and the motions that nearly all the high level servers use.

WT before racket drop? WT is a serve technique. I don't know the statistics of the racket face angles for the ATP servers as the entire service motions progresses. Open, closed, faces the side fence, etc. Are those other racket orientations very similar for many servers. The last 3 feet before impact on high level ATP serves are all are very similar. But several years ago, I learned about the racket face facing the sky at one established checkpoint at the Big L Position. Posters have other uses for racket orientations that I think are not widely used. ?

Just because the racket face faces the sky is not enough to make the serve a WT. If it uses ISR for racket head speed, it is not a WT. Racket face facing the sky at Big L is enough to say the serve is not a high level serve.

There is a less used serving technique where the arm is extended more to the side, ISR is used for racket head speed, the racket faces the sky and with ISR the racket rotates forward to impact. You might have some of that. ? If ISR is used that is not a WT even if the racket face mostly faces the sky.

Where did each of those parts come from? Are you instructing yourself with simple three word tennis terms? 'Hit up and out.' Is that why your angles at impact are the what they are?

Do we want to study your serve in detail or identify the differences between it and a high level serve? Starting with those last 3 feet of racket travel is my approach.

Daniel Andrade · Nov 2, 2021

I had this exact question, going down with an open face IS NOT a waiter tray serve (So far my research has shown), however when going up the racquet has to be on edge. All good as long as you really drop that racquet to the bottom of your back.

Chas Tennis · Nov 3, 2021

Daniel Andrade said:
I had this exact question, going down with an open face IS NOT a waiter tray serve (So far my research has shown), however when going up the racquet has to be on edge. All good as long as you really drop that racquet to the bottom of your back.

....... however when going up the racquet has to be on edge.
The term 'on edge' is ambiguous. Some say swing toward the ball 'edge on' or 'on edge' and 'at the last second' turn the racket face. And some do that.

That is not how the high level serve works. In the picture, the lower red arrow shows that the racket is briefly edge on to the ball. I use that position to check for a WT and to determine if the serve might still be a high level serve. If the racket face faces the sky it is not a high level serve and it is probably a Waiter's Tray. But notice that between the lower red arrow and higher red arrow the racket face has rotated - estimating 80 degrees. That is the important thing, ISR. The 'edge on' or 'on edge' is ambiguous and muddles communication and tend to ignore what actually going on, ISR to rotate the racket.

All good as long as you really drop that racquet to the bottom of your back.

The racket often looks as if it touches the back but it is not behind the back, it is to the side of the body for a high level serve.

a12345 · Nov 3, 2021

Waiters tray is more the racket face starts open faced or stays there for a long time because people are trying to align the racket face with the ball too early.

If you simply pass through what might be considered a tilted the waiters tray position as you are swinging back, this is fine. In fact Federer and Sampras pass through this open racket face style in their backswing.

Daniel Andrade · Nov 3, 2021

Chas Tennis said:
....... however when going up the racquet has to be on edge.
The term 'on edge' is ambiguous. Some say swing toward the ball 'edge on' or 'on edge' and 'at the last second' turn the racket face. And some do that.

That is not how the high level serve works. In the picture, the lower red arrow shows that the racket is briefly edge on to the ball. I use that position to check for a WT and to determine if the serve might still be a high level serve. If the racket face faces the sky it is not a high level serve and it is probably a Waiter's Tray. But notice that between the lower red arrow and higher red arrow the racket face has rotated - estimating 80 degrees. That is the important thing, ISR. The 'edge on' or 'on edge' is ambiguous and muddles communication and tend to ignore what actually going on, ISR to rotate the racket.

All good as long as you really drop that racquet to the bottom of your back.

The racket often looks as if it touches the back but it is not behind the back, it is to the side of the body for a high level serve.

I agree! The way we communicate things has to be clear and understandable!

So drop your racket until its tip is at the height level of your lower back (even though the racket it's not exactly behind it)
Also the racket has to be on edge, up to the point we start the internal shoulder rotation.

Do you consider those phrases to be more concise and understandable?

Am I doing the WTE?

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