Fixing Slight Waiter's Tray On The Way Down To Racquet Drop

[Raul_SJ]

I had someone stand behind me to watch my serve. Wanted to verify that I drop on edge from trophy.

When I do the shadow swing he said it looks fine. I get to trophy and drop on edge from trophy to racquet drop.

When I toss he said there is a slight opening up into Waiter's Tray. I get to trophy okay and begin to drop on edge, but then open up into WT slightly early on the way down.
Note: Some variations of Waiters Tray error occur before the trophy position. But I am getting to trophy okay without opening up into Waiters Tray.

In other words, my position at around Frame #2-3 looks more like Federer's position at around Frame #4-5.

I want to stay more on edge on the drop like Fed. The fact that I can do it in shadow indicates that maybe I'm anxious to hit the serve and that's why I open up early.

 

[Curious]

I had someone stand behind me to watch my serve. Wanted to verify that I drop on edge from trophy.

When I do the shadow swing he said it looks fine. I get to trophy and drop on edge from trophy to racquet drop.

When I toss he said there is a slight opening up into Waiter's Tray. I get to trophy okay and begin to drop on edge, but then open up into WT slightly early on the way down.
Note: Some variations of Waiters Tray error occur before the trophy position. But I am getting to trophy okay without opening up into Waiters Tray.

In other words, my position at around Frame #2-3 looks more like Federer's position at around Frame #4-5.

I want to stay more on edge on the drop like Fed. The fact that I can do it in shadow indicates that maybe I'm anxious to hit the serve and that's why I open up early.

Fed is one of those that don’t really drop the racket edge on which to me is the only ugly part of his serve.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Fed is one of those that don’t really drop the racket edge on which to me is the only ugly part of his serve.

I'm assuming that the variation of WT error that occurs before trophy is more serious than the one that happens during the drop.
Mine's happens on the drop but still want to fix it. Ideally on edge but If I can get it like Fed, it would be an improvement. Assuming Fed's position is aesthetic and has little effect on the serve... Also notice that steepness of Fed's drop is mediocre compared to other pros. Might be related to non edge-on.

 

[Curious]

I'm assuming that the variation of WT error that occurs before trophy is more serious than the one that happens during the drop.
Mine's happens on the drop but still want to fix it. Ideally on edge but If I can get it like Fed, it would be an improvement. Assuming Fed's position is aesthetic and has little effect on the serve.

To me it’s the most serious if the racket travels with open face on the way up to the ball.

 

[Raul_SJ]

To me it’s the most serious if the racket travels with open face on the way up to the ball.

I tend to agree. Most serious is WT that occurs before trophy as I dont think you can recover from that whereas you can somewhat recover from WT after trophy on the way down.

The guy watching me told me I traveled on edge from drop to Big L and just before contact. But I think it's better to stay on edge all throughout the motion.

 

[Curious]

But I think it's better to stay on edge all throughout the motion.

Aesthetically or for rhs? I’m not sure if that makes a significant difference. You seem to have the crucial part right: on edge on the way up.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Aesthetically or for rhs? I’m not sure if that makes a significant difference. You seem to have the crucial part right: on edge on the way up.

I'm not convinced it makes a difference on the way down but it's just safer to be on edge going down for those like myself prone to WT. I sometimes open up into WT before trophy. Obviously Fed has a great serve but why open up if you don't have to? Do not see any purpose to it.

Most common rec player error I see:
Opening up into WT before trophy. This is most serious because you are not likely to get a full drop and most likely will have WT on the way up too. Hard to recover.

The other variation of WT is getting to the trophy and drop correctly but opening up into WT on the way up at around Big L. Not sure how common this is but suspect it is easier to fix and not as serious as WT that happens before trophy.

 

[Curious]

I'm not convinced it makes a difference on the way down but it's just safer to be on edge going down for those like myself prone to WT. I sometimes open up into WT before trophy.

Most common rec player error I see:
Opening up into WT before trophy. This is most serious because you are not likely to get a full drop and most likely will have WT on the way up too. Hard to recover.

The other variation of WT is getting to the trophy and drop correctly but opening up into WT on the way up at around Big L. Not sure how common this is but suspect it is easier to fix and not as serious as WT that happens before trophy.

I’m an example of opening up at trophy and on the way down but pretty much correcting it completely and going up on edge. But I noticed I pronate early as I’m not strong enough to do it at the last second before contact.

 

[Keendog]

Raul, my 2¢, from another amateur that has gone through this the past 12 months.

From this and other threads of yours, to me you are thinking about it WAY too much. These pointers you are talking about, trophy, drop, leading edge, WT, they are not things to think about or accomplish. Coaches in person wouldn't mention these things to you as it overloads your brain with way too much information and makes the stroke too self conscious and not natural. On youtube people mention it to descibe some of the common characteristics of top level serves for the reason of creating a langauge to enable talking about a serve analytically. But this is not how you learn.

Could you imagine someone describing walking; engage your right glute, move right foot forward, engage right hamstring to pull your leg back thus sending your body forward, while simultaneously engaging your lefte glute to send your left foot forward, but DON't use you hip flexor to send your leg forward etc... Just bloody walk you would say! Same with the serve.

Deep down you know the action required, grab a tennis ball and throw it into the service box. There, it is the same action. You will lead with your elbow, pronate/ISR/ESR, shoulder turn whatever all automatically. To serve is the same, you just need to let go of your mental block which is trying to "hit" a ball.

My suggestion, forget everything. Now throw a tennis ball or two into the service box. Notice how it feels. Pay attention to the wrist movements. Notice how natural the timing of you shoulders turning and arm sync up. This feeling is what you are aiming for with a serve. Grab a racquet and shadow swing a few times replicating this motion. Pay attetion to when you hear a wooshing noise, this is the max acceleration point on your swing. Look up at sky and see where this is, keep your gaze on this imaginary point and do a few more shadows. Then toss a ball into the path of the swing but don't adjust the swing to hit the ball at all, just see if you can toss a ball into the racquets' natural path. Keep repeating doing 8-10 shadow swings to one swing where you toss a ball into it.

Hopefully you manage to hit a couple of balls with the racquet and you will get a sense of the feeling of the swing. It will be hard to replace your old mental image of 'hitting' the ball, you may to do this everytime you go to serve for a while. But it seems apparent to me you haven't managed to "feel" what the motion should be yet and you are fumbling around in the dark a bit, too worried about leading edges and such.

As Patches O'Houhlihan says, if you can throw a ball you can serve. Anyways, good luck with it.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Raul, my 2¢, from another amateur that has gone through this the past 12 months.

From this and other threads of yours, to me you are thinking about it WAY too much. These pointers you are talking about, trophy, drop, leading edge, WT, they are not things to think about or accomplish. Coaches in person wouldn't mention these things to you as it overloads your brain with way too much information and makes the stroke too self conscious and not natural. On youtube people mention it to descibe some of the common characteristics of top level serves for the reason of creating a langauge to enable talking about a serve analytically. But this is not how you learn.

I really don't think about any of these things while serving. These are observations made after the fact from observing differences with the pro video.
I've done the throws and the shadow swings. Coaches have confirmed my throws and shadow swings are correct. One coach told me, "Your shadow swing is perfect".
Now just have to figure out why it fails with toss introduced.

It is a simplification to say that if one can throw then one can serve. Throwing is a prerequisite but it does not automatically and immediately translate. Maybe for some but not for everyone.

 

[Keendog]

I really don't think about any of these things while serving. These are observations made after the fact from observing differences with the pro video.
I've done the throws and the shadow swings. Coaches have confirmed my throws and shadow swings are correct. One coach told me, "Your shadow swing is perfect".
Now just have to figure out why it fails with toss introduced.

It is a simplification to say that if one can throw then one can serve. Throwing is a prerequisite but it does not automatically and immediately translate. Maybe for some but not for everyone.

Good luck Raul, I don't normally post tips, just thought it might be of help for you

 

[Raul_SJ]

Good luck Raul, I don't normally post tips, just thought it might be of help for you

Yes, it was helpful. Just want to clarify that I too prefer to go by feel rather than overthink. But video is useful to confirm the motion is correct.
Will try your water bottle drill.