Most Tennis Lessons Are Useless (video)

colabby said:

Did anyone here buy any courses from Ian? I watched him coach students on his channel and it does not inspire confidence. He is good at the clickbait and matchplay videos, but I wouldn't take him seriously for instructional videos based on his youtube content.

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I have seen Ian's teaching firsthand, and he is an excellent coach. He has loads of technical knowledge, and does a great job of explaining it. Of course this is my opinion, but as someone who has been teaching tennis for multiple decades, I do think its a credible one.

Most people treat lessons as an activity or structured practice. They want to hit a bunch of balls and get some tips and there's nothing wrong with that. What's useless is going into a lesson with a continental grip and a flat forehand and expecting to leave semi western with 2,500rpm top spin at the end of the hour. Real technical development is a long haul and a bit of a grind. It requires a lot of independent practice and a willingness at times to get worse before you get better. I don't think a lot of people want that. Your typical club pro isn't going to have a full book if his lessons consist of intense footwork drills, shadow swings and hand feeds. The best pro I know focusses much of his teaching on footwork. Most of the popular pros I know chases balls around and hits a medium pace ball back down the middle so their lessons can spray a bunch of forehands back without taking more than 2 steps. I'm a glutton for punishment, so I work work with the pro who makes me do footwork drills but he has made me a much better player than I would have become otherwise. For me, that improvement outweighs the fact that some of the lessons might not be so enjoyable. For others, taking a lesson that isn't fun isn't of interest.

For players content on largely working with what they have there is still a path to improvement through lessons when the focus is on strategy......shot selection, positioning, point development, etc. I haven't watched a lot of Ian's videos but have seen a few where he has coached students in practice matches and he seems to be an effective teacher.

GuyClinch said:

They don't want their strokes broken down - because they have to play in a match later this week for their 3.5 team.

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RobS said:

It requires a willingness at times to get worse before you get better.

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This is very true

RobS said:

The best pro I know focusses much of his teaching on footwork.
I work work with the pro who makes me do footwork drills

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Can you tell us more about these footwork drills with the real coach ?

There is some research evidence showing that the placebo effect of certain medications can be enhanced by the perceived cost of the treatment. If this could be generalized to tennis instruction, it would mean that the more you pay for a lesson, the more you may benefit from it, regardless of the actual content of the lesson. Isn't that great?

StringGuruMRT said:

I have seen Ian's teaching firsthand, and he is an excellent coach. He has loads of technical knowledge, and does a great job of explaining it. Of course this is my opinion, but as someone who has been teaching tennis for multiple decades, I do think its a credible one.

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As a former coach and NTRP 5.0, I agree.

That was an interesting video of coaches discussing lessons. They all made some good points and agree with their assessment.
I take some lessons in the summer from the local college coach and they have definitely helped me. He is very flexible and will help me with what I feel is needed and also give his input. But doesn’t mind if I want to concentrate one one thing then that’s what that lesson will be for that day.

If I take a lesson a week or every two weeks and then really try to work on what I learned on my own time then lessons will payoff. I try to hit later in the same day after my lesson and then keep working on what I learned the next few days. To me this is critical if you want to get much out of a lesson, otherwise you won’t see much benefit.

giantschwinn said:

That's how academy works. Not limited to Moratouglu. The top players go there for free/ scholarships. The mediocre ones pay the full price to be there. These mediocre players' parents have spend too much money to quit now. Most of them justify paying because they want their kids to play "D1 tennis".

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I’ve worked at tennis academies. One was third largest in US, another I just helped out for a few week, small program but amazing players. Visited a bunch as well, I know the drill.
Although you are correct, personally I don’t see a problem with top players getting reduced rates etc. At the academy I worked at, sponsored players from their racket company would send their players there to train. The academy itself would pick and choose certain players, invite them, whatever you wanna call it to train there. Some were very highly ranked that they trained there for free. Mind you, those players even though still young juniors worked their butts off and deserved the ranking they had and the perks that came along with it. The regular players there didn’t have the same drive. A lot of juniors can hit a great ball, especially in practice. When you see the top players at an academy just hit with the normal juniors a lot of the time it’s difficult to spot the difference. Get them in a match, or start the training and watch the intensity differ and the thinking/tennis smarts as well.

Miki 1234 said:

Moratoglu training camps, coached by the coach, see this vids he basically says it all, i watched few more cant remember the names now but this 2 will do .
Also I can find logical fallacy in most of his vids, in some its just a single word here and there.
He is very very smart guy and great bussines man , knows so much about tennis its crazy.
But in the end its bussines as usual.
How much he spends with a player, what advice he gives, talks a lot without saying nothing etc... its all calculated.
His personal gain does come first always.
His main moto is never coach angry.
Anger is to be controled not avoided.
Without it there is no chance to help in any way todays weak and spoiled kids which are vast majority on courts today.
Being always positive
sounds really good haha but its fail like any other .

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He says a lot of simple things. I will try and find a video of a tour coach mic’ed up working with an ATP player so you can see how basic some of the instructions are. You’d think they’re at the local club training for league matches.

FiddlerDog said:

This is very false.

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Very true actually.

tennis_balla said:

Most rec/club players know what they are doing wrong, that’s easy to spot. Anyone who’s been playing tennis for a short while can tell you what you’re doing wrong. Almost everyone here who responds to video threads asking for advice on serve, forehand etc know what the player is doing wrong. How to fix it, the simplest and quickest way possible and implement that in a match situation, something that’s new and doesn’t yet feel natural. That’s where the good coaches separate themselves from the pack.

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I disagree, most rec/club players don't know what they are doing wrong, until they watch a video of themselves, me included.

Fintft said:

I disagree, most rec/club players don't know what they are doing wrong, until they watch a video of themselves, me included.

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I wrote that out wrong, just reread it. I meant when watching other players. My bad. They can spot faults in other peoples games, but not know how to fix it.

Here’s the ATP coaching video I was talking about. Wawrinka and his coach mic’ed up.

Dartagnan64 said:

Seeing yourself is invaluable to find flaws. It does very little to fix those flaws

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I disagree, as it's an eye opener.

tennis_balla said:

I wrote that out wrong, just reread it. I meant when watching other players. My bad. They can spot faults in other peoples games, but not know how to fix it.

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Oh we might even know how to fix things, but we are just delusional about where we are in our tennis development and also lazy...

Fintft said:

I disagree, most rec/club players don't know what they are doing wrong, until they watch a video of themselves, me included.

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I'm inclined to agree with you: the average player is just not kinesthetically self-aware enough to know what they're doing.

Show them and they still might not believe it.

Case in point: I was doing a static yoga stretch and thought I had achieved "the position". But when I looked in the mirror, I was still off by a good bit. And this was when I was calm, doing a static exercise. Now change that to trying to do a dynamic act like hitting a tennis ball while moving.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:

I'm inclined to agree with you: the average player is just not kinesthetically self-aware enough to know what they're doing.

Show them and they still might not believe it.

Case in point: I was doing a static yoga stretch and thought I had achieved "the position". But when I looked in the mirror, I was still off by a good bit. And this was when I was calm, doing a static exercise. Now change that to trying to do a dynamic act like hitting a tennis ball while moving.

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Need to more yoga myself. Kudos!

Fintft said:

Need to more yoga myself. Kudos!

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It's more out of self-preservation than anything else: I believe it extends my tennis [and that other thing called "quality of life"] longevity.

tennis_balla said:

He says a lot of simple things. I will try and find a video of a tour coach mic’ed up working with an ATP player so you can see how basic some of the instructions are. You’d think they’re at the local club training for league matches.

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We’ve heard some when WTA coaches were coming to players and giving advise. Interesting, quite simple, yet a wide range of things/approaches, depending on particular player and coach. Remember Pliskova receiving advise on how to play in windy conditions - differently from either side of the court.

tennis_balla said:

Very true actually.

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In my experience, it varies. Some things you know. Some you know generally, but are unaware you need to correct. Some you learn new, or new interpretation... I get lots of benefit from cleaning up technical things, whenever I figure out key ones.

One story though, personal... I’ve got tendency to contact the ball close to the tip. Really close. My racquets (Yonex DR98s + lead tape) were quite stable and muted, so I didn’t feel any issues, but every now and then I produced weak balls or errors with no obvious reason. No one ever told me about the issue, 3 coaches I really evaluate high missed the issue!
I figured it out when I played with different frame which was supposed to be soft, yet contact was harsh... Looked into a video, wondering also why my arm is so bent despite decent spacing... and ALL OF A SUDDEN I realized that I never ever hit the ball with proper spot! It all got much better - cleaner, easier pace, spin - when I started to focus on hitting closer to the dampener area (ending with mostly mid-stringbed). It was single best correction made in a year of tennis, and it came from discovery, not hard practice, in the first place

I've had a couple of lessons since I returned to tennis, with a few different coaches and the difference between them can be night and day.

I think having a clear goal from what you want to get out of it is important. But if you just want to be fed some decent balls and hit for an hour, then it's your choice and your money. However each time I've either had something I've wanted to work on, or let them suggest something that they think I'm not doing as well as I could.

For example in one of them we spent over half the session with me just practicing hitting my wide cross court recovery ball deeper and loopier (I was guilty of going for too much on it too often and robbing myself of recovery time). It was something I'd already identified and perhaps through trying it more in match play I would have seen an improvement, but it just gave me enough balls doing it to turbo charge it.

Realistic expectations are probably key.

My junior coach was excellent. He's a big coach in my hometown now, decades later. He dealt with each of us very differently and was great at bringing out the strengths and working on the weaknesses. I never went far as I just did not have the athleticism or hand to eye co-ordination but he gave me a game that lets me go out and hit the ball for two to three hours and have a great time. Credit to the game.
Not that I am disputing what the video says, but I just wanted to add my own experience.

giantschwinn said:

Ash, how can you make a honest living and accept all that money and pushing your students if the goal is not to go pro? What's the goal then. A quarter of a D1 scholarship? I see all these kids with the goal of playing for D1 schools. And I am thinking to myself, go hit the books and quit wasting your time with tennis.

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I can't believe I'm even bothering to reply, but here we go anyway...

There is more than one goal. Our programme is built around using tennis as a vehicle to help kids develop mental, physical and life skills that will help them through their education ans for the rest of their lives and careers (whatever path they may take).

We work from a values/behaviours based framework which helps the psychosocial development, we support parents with our knowledge of child development and we encourage them to live a healthy life.

Some of the kids only compete in our internal events, some go on to play for their school, some go on to play for their county, or nationally, or get a University scholarship here or in the US, one or two may make an attempt at playing full time.

But our goal as a programme is always the same, to use tennis as a vehicle to support their personal development (and as a bi-product of that, ignite a life long love for the game).

tennis_balla said:

I’ve worked at tennis academies. One was third largest in US, another I just helped out for a few week, small program but amazing players. Visited a bunch as well, I know the drill.
Although you are correct, personally I don’t see a problem with top players getting reduced rates etc. At the academy I worked at, sponsored players from their racket company would send their players there to train. The academy itself would pick and choose certain players, invite them, whatever you wanna call it to train there. Some were very highly ranked that they trained there for free. Mind you, those players even though still young juniors worked their butts off and deserved the ranking they had and the perks that came along with it. The regular players there didn’t have the same drive. A lot of juniors can hit a great ball, especially in practice. When you see the top players at an academy just hit with the normal juniors a lot of the time it’s difficult to spot the difference. Get them in a match, or start the training and watch the intensity differ and the thinking/tennis smarts as well.



He says a lot of simple things. I will try and find a video of a tour coach mic’ed up working with an ATP player so you can see how basic some of the instructions are. You’d think they’re at the local club training for league matches.



Very true actually.

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That is the thing, the way he works is in huge favour for very talented players who a
are very close to making it in the first place.

tennis_balla said:

I’ve worked at tennis academies. One was third largest in US, another I just helped out for a few week, small program but amazing players. Visited a bunch as well, I know the drill.
Although you are correct, personally I don’t see a problem with top players getting reduced rates etc. At the academy I worked at, sponsored players from their racket company would send their players there to train. The academy itself would pick and choose certain players, invite them, whatever you wanna call it to train there. Some were very highly ranked that they trained there for free. Mind you, those players even though still young juniors worked their butts off and deserved the ranking they had and the perks that came along with it. The regular players there didn’t have the same drive. A lot of juniors can hit a great ball, especially in practice. When you see the top players at an academy just hit with the normal juniors a lot of the time it’s difficult to spot the difference. Get them in a match, or start the training and watch the intensity differ and the thinking/tennis smarts as well.



He says a lot of simple things. I will try and find a video of a tour coach mic’ed up working with an ATP player so you can see how basic some of the instructions are. You’d think they’re at the local club training for league matches.



Very true actually.

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The way pro coaches work is very bad for normal player.
And vice versa in most cases.
Average player reacts totally diferent to exact same instruction from moratoglou then the top talent.
Talented players take advice , and thats a big if (most of the time they will put you on ignore... )and incoporate it in their existing game .
Its minor adjustment or almost none.
So they take a coach who they can tolerate even if they dont really need coaching they do need company and help.
The average players make that advice from moratoglou the whole point of their game since they dont have the game in the first place and have to much respect for the coach they dont know well.
When they see thise advice doesnt help they lose that respect.
That is why moratoglou stays with average player for very short periods of time , or until their adrenalin is up so they do everything better.
Then he gives advice and moves away to next player.
While the average dude tries so hard to do what hes been told.
Top player does it once or twice , if at all then he just forgets about it.

Miki 1234 said:

That is the thing, the way he works is in huge favour for very talented players who a
are very close to making it in the first place.


The way pro coaches work is very bad for normal player.
And vice versa in most cases.
Average player reacts totally diferent to exact same instruction from moratoglou then the top talent.
Talented players take advice , and thats a big if (most of the time they will put you on ignore... )and incoporate it in their existing game .
Its minor adjustment or almost none.
So they take a coach who they can tolerate even if they dont really need coaching they do need company and help.
The average players make that advice from moratoglou the whole point of their game since they dont have the game in the first place and have to much respect for the coach they dont know well.
When they see thise advice doesnt help they lose that respect.
That is why moratoglou stays with average player for very short periods of time , or until their adrenalin is up so they do everything better.
Then he gives advice and moves away to next player.
While the average dude tries so hard to do what hes been told.
Top player does it once or twice , if at all then he just forgets about it.

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Again, are you talking about personal experience with top/high performance players or just things you’ve seen at tournament, videos online and tv? I’m asking this honestly because although there are problem players are almost uncoachable on the tour, and their results reflect that, that’s not common.

Dragy said:

Looked into a video, wondering also why my arm is so bent despite decent spacing... and ALL OF A SUDDEN I realized that I never ever hit the ball with proper spot! It all got much better - cleaner, easier pace, spin - when I started to focus on hitting closer to the dampener area (ending with mostly mid-stringbed). It was single best correction made in a year of tennis, and it came from discovery, not hard practice, in the first place

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Or from experience? At least that's what happened to me, I think as I've been hitting consistenty with the sweet spot after my first 5 years of tennis...

A very good tennis coach is very hard to find, just like finding a very good software engineers.

For the rest of us mortal, a tennis coach is like a software engineers, average at best. All of us are pretenders. We all have other interests outside of tennis.

Tennis coaches make about half compare to golf coaches. A very good tennis coach charges $175/hr. That's what Sloane Stephens' coach charges one of my kids. A very good golf coach charges $300 at the minimum.

Fintft said:

I disagree, most rec/club players don't know what they are doing wrong, until they watch a video of themselves, me included.

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How many club players out of 100 have filmed their matches for analysis?

bobleenov1963 said:

$175/hr. That's what Sloane Stephens charges one of my kids.

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Your children take tennis lessons with Sloane Stephens ? Tell us more !

FiddlerDog said:

Your children take tennis lessons with Sloane Stephens ? Tell us more !

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Typo. Sloane Stephens' coach, not Sloane herself, LOL...

Fintft said:

Or from experience? At least that's what happened to me, I think as I've been hitting consistenty with the sweet spot after my first 5 years of tennis...

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There are lots of players around who hit with sweet spot and never worry. If they miss it, it’s random - up, down, high, low, just inconsistency. But I personally developed that flaw, I dunno if it was long-term or just some recent issue, and had to address it directly.

I started teaching with a grand vision that i could get any moderately athletic/coordinated player to the 4.0 level in a year or two (along with a heavy does of self-practice)... because that's what i would have been looking for from a coach (and what i experienced from great coaches).
But what I've learned is that folks want different things from their lesson(s), and achieving 4.0+ was not one of them...
Typical things people want:
* just someone to hit with, and can get the ball into their strikezone consistently so they can feel like they are hitting well... they don't care about competition, they just want that feeling of accomplishment of hitting a good ball (for them), consistently for an hour. they did NOT welcome any changes/corrections.
* to tell their friends they are taking tennis lessons - last year i had two adult women that spent more time talking on the court, despite me constantly coaxing them to work... then one of them got a call, and stopped mid drill to get her phone to answer it,... just to say they were in a tennis lesson... (obviously if i were in a lesson i'd have ignored the call, but i guess i'm silly like that).
* someone to compete against - they didn't want instruction, just to compete,... even if it wasn't remotely competitive. in those cases i mostly fed balls to their fh
* someone to talk to - i've had a few divorcees (women), that flat out told me they just want to socialize in a different setting... and were happy just talking (despite hitting less than a hopper of balls)
* a workout - similar to above, they just wanted to hit a high volume of balls, and run alot
* ...it all... they want a lesson, practice session, workout, and competition.... all in an hour... as you all know tennis (any activity) requires instruction (get knowledge), practice (in grain knowledge into muscle memory, exericse (to do tennis for longer), and competition (test what i've learned & practiced, under pressure).... but being frugal, they want it all in a single lesson.
* a baby sitter - you now, those parents that drop off their kid to play, but the kid doesn't even want to be there. in some cases i'm better off dressing up as a clown making balloon animals,...
* to be entertained... they probably want to just workout/socialize/etc... but they want it to be fun/laugh/etc.... there's a big block of folks (you can imagine who i'm thinking about) that just takes lessons over and over again because the coach is good looking, has an accent, is funny, etc... (meanwhile they are still using the wrong grips on their bh for example, even after a summer's worth of "lessons")
* a motivational speaker.... they probably don't get attaboys in non-tennis life, and pay for someone to give them attaboys in tennis
* just want to get good enough to hit with their 3.0-3.5 friends (the foundation is social, it's not about tennis at all, but hitting at say the 3.5 level would give them social access to a particular group of people). i actually taught one guy that said his company was having a social event at a tennis club (a few months from then), and he didn't want to look dumb/wanted to impress the higher ups...
* someone to flirt with - i've seen it happen often (i don't fit the criteria - so haven't experienced it first hand)

yesterday i was talking to my fellow usta teammate, and we were commenting about how much we liked a certain coach (former hitting partner with murray)... creds aside, what we al agreed on, and appreciated, is he treated us like juniors... told us when were were doing something wrong, or neeeded to work harder (or were slacking), etc... but we're a small minority of folks... whereas the bigger pool of $tudent$ falls in the categories above (or at least easier to find).

nyta2 said:

* someone to flirt with

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Does anyone have any real-life stories about this? Just academic curiosity.

giantschwinn said:

Ash, how can you make a honest living and accept all that money and pushing your students if the goal is not to go pro? What's the goal then. A quarter of a D1 scholarship? I see all these kids with the goal of playing for D1 schools. And I am thinking to myself, go hit the books and quit wasting your time with tennis.

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i spend thou$and$ on kids activities (sports/music/SAT prep/tutoring/etc...).. there is zero $ ROI expectation (in terms of scholarships, etc)
point is to give my kids different avenues to learn life lessons (team work, hard work, how to acquire skills, left/right brain developement, etc...)
great coaches teach way more than just <insert skill here>.

oh yeah, and they are expected to hit the books daily... it's their #1 *job*

sureshs said:

Does anyone have any real-life stories about this? Just academic curiosity.

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yes

jdawgg said:

yes

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Can you give a brief answer instead of going on and on with the details?

tennis_balla said:

Again, are you talking about personal experience with top/high performance players or just things you’ve seen at tournament, videos online and tv? I’m asking this honestly because although there are problem players are almost uncoachable on the tour, and their results reflect that, that’s not common.

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You should be able to conclude if I talk from personal experience or not based on what i say.
Tour coaches are tour coaches, they go from one player to another if possible.
They are not that good with coaching average players and most of them never were.
Just lucky enough to find their space at pro coaching were they do a good job.

Miki 1234 said:

You should be able to conclude if I talk from personal experience or not based on what i say.
Tour coaches are tour coaches, they go from one player to another if possible.
They are not that good with coaching average players and most of them never were.
Just lucky enough to find their space at pro coaching were they do a good job.

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So no personal ATP coaching experience. Got it.

Ok. I confess. I do what is necessary to make my clients happy 90% of the time. I am primarily in a service business. Of course I let my "passion" take over sometimes. But as long as it is a profession and not a hobby, I have to act like a professional.

Morch Us said:

Ok. I confess. I do what is necessary to make my clients happy 90% of the time. I am primarily in a service business. Of course I let my "passion" take over sometimes. But as long as it is a profession and not a hobby, I have to act like a professional.

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Most professional coaches see it as a job to earn a pay check. You can see the same thing with music teachers, or another professions. For example, I couldn't careless for what I am doing right now with my job. I just do it enough to earn a pay check so that it can afford to do things that I really like to do like playing golf.

There are few coaches/teachers that have passions for what they do and that they are really good at what they do. At the same time, they have the financial resources to be very "picky" on whom they want to coach/teach. For example, about ten years ago, one of my kid piano teachers who was a very accomplished pianist gave my kids lessons, not every week but once every three weeks. She told my kids not to come back and take lessons until they could master what she taught them before. Otherwise, it is a waste of her time and their time.

I also have a current golf coach who says the same thing to my kids. He doesn't want them to take lessons every week because it is a waste of money. He wants them to take lessons ONLY when they can master what he taught previously. Otherwise, do not come back because it is a waste of time and money.

Those are the people that you want to teach your kids, if your kids have what it takes to become successful.

tennis_balla said:

So no personal ATP coaching experience. Got it.

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That personal experience crap story is tipical for 99% coaches.
Just go orange coach jobs and everyone has worked with a top player lol.
Im bit beyond that myself, no need for a cool story I just show up.

sureshs said:

Does anyone have any real-life stories about this? Just academic curiosity.

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i was hoping that suresh-the-sx-sultan would regale us with your stories of forehands & fore-play

I is a bit more complicated than that. Many coaches are IN it because of their passion. But if they let their passion take it over their professionalism, they will appear like a "jerk" to common public, and you better have some alternative income. If you are considering this as a profession, first and foremost you have to respect that. It does not mean you are ripping off. You are doing the service the client wants (Frankly most clients are not interested to become 5.0 from 3.0, or from a good junior to ATP/WTA pro, and that is not what makes them happy).

The worst one is when your actual client is not the one on the court (tennis parents), and they both have opposite/different priorities. Again you have to find some middle ground, but the priority is still for the client (usually the parent).

bobleenov1963 said:

There are few coaches/teachers that have passions for what they do and that they are really good at what they do

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Morch Us said:

I is a bit more complicated than that. Many coaches are IN it because of their passion. But if they let their passion take it over their professionalism, they will appear like a "jerk" to common public, and you better have some alternative income. If you are considering this as a profession, first and foremost you have to respect that. It does not mean you are ripping off. You are doing the service the client wants (Frankly most clients are not interested to become 5.0 from 3.0, and that is not what makes them happy).

The worst one is when your actual client is not the one on the court (tennis parents), and they both have opposite/different priorities. Again you have to find some middle ground, but the priority is still for the client (usually the parent).

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Well yeah, you can't force someone to improve, and there is no reason to... Maybe giving them a slight nudge and encouraging if they aren't sure, but it is their hobby and their money so obviously they call the shots.

As long as you help the ones that want to progress you are a great coach.

I just looked up the rates of pros at my club. $80, $90 or $100 per hour. Part of that goes directly to the club and part goes to pay the Director of Tennis who doesn't get a salary (but gives her own lessons too and has a bonus tied to the revenue the club brings in). Total deduction is 30% I think. So take home before taxes will be $56 to $70. Health insurance is also up to them, not employer provided.

I do agree that, Ian did find a good balance, and he is an excellent coach. But I believe, he is also not in the business of "long term coaching" partnerships, and mostly in the "quick fix" business. But his clients are a lot more passionate than average tennis crowd, just because of the natural filter, and so he can expect most of them to do the work necessary to make the "quick fix" a more permanent "long term fix" on their own, once he guides them. So this naturally leads to proper improvement, and so eventually it leads to him delivering what the client wants.

StringGuruMRT said:

I have seen Ian's teaching firsthand, and he is an excellent coach. He has loads of technical knowledge, and does a great job of explaining it. Of course this is my opinion, but as someone who has been teaching tennis for multiple decades, I do think its a credible one.

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Miki 1234 said:

That personal experience crap story is tipical for 99% coaches.
Just go orange coach jobs and everyone has worked with a top player lol.
Im bit beyond that myself, no need for a cool story I just show up.

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So you’re admitting you’re speaking about things you have no personal experience in. That was the whole point of me questioning what you typed.
You’re not wrong in some cases, but I knew the way you wrote it that you’re just repeating what you’ve heard others say.

Ash_Smith said:

There is more than one goal. Our programme is built around using tennis as a vehicle to help kids develop mental, physical and life skills that will help them through their education ans for the rest of their lives and careers (whatever path they may take).

We work from a values/behaviours based framework which helps the psychosocial development, we support parents with our knowledge of child development and we encourage them to live a healthy life.

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Ash, my point is as coaches do you tell parents that having D1 as a goal is stupid. Most D1 schools you wouldn't want your kids to go even if they were free.

giantschwinn said:

Ash, my point is as coaches do you tell parents that having D1 as a goal is stupid. Most D1 schools you wouldn't want your kids to go even if they were free.

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Ash is in the UK so it’s a different mentality for training and coaching in Europe. Having lived and coached in Europe myself for a bit over 7 years, the goal for the majority of juniors is not NCAA.

tennis_balla said:

So you’re admitting you’re speaking about things you have no personal experience in. That was the whole point of me questioning what you typed.
You’re not wrong in some cases, but I knew the way you wrote it that you’re just repeating what you’ve heard others say.

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Didnt admit to anything except i dont even need to fake it , just show up.
So you would believe thousands with so called experience which anyone can fake?

giantschwinn said:

Ash, my point is as coaches do you tell parents that having D1 as a goal is stupid. Most D1 schools you wouldn't want your kids to go even if they were free.

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If you spend thousands for private high school education, what's your expectation? Was it a waste if they don't make it to ivy league?

giantschwinn said:

Ash, my point is as coaches do you tell parents that having D1 as a goal is stupid. Most D1 schools you wouldn't want your kids to go even if they were free.

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It rather depends on whose goal it is. If it's coming from the kid, then in no way would I tell them it's a stupid goal (in the same way that I would never tell a kid any goal is stupid - if we did that there would be no Microsoft, or Uber, or AirBnB, or New Zealand All Blacks etc). I would explain what it would likely require from them (and their support network) to make it happen though.

If it was the parents goal and not the kids, then that would present a different issue.

It is difficult to predict ahead. I was just reading my club's newsletter now. There were 2 twin bothers who are sons of a Filipino-American couple. Both parents are short, mother even shorter, and father is a part time coach. I have known the kids from their childhood and signed them up at the front desk of innumerable junior tournaments. Looking at their Asian parents' height and their financial background, one could never have predicted that the boys are almost 6 feet in height now and successful. As juniors, they participated in exhibitions with the Bryans where the twins thing was a popular headline, and played against D1 teams at the Pacific Men's Doubles, where I have volunteered for Bill Kellogg many years. I once even gave one of the boys an extra lunch volunteer coupon I had so that he could use it at the stand and save some money.

Now both are playing D1 in their sophomore year with a scholarship at the same University. If you had seen them and their parents when they were kids, you would have seriously questioned their father's commitment. It is a different matter that the father likes to point at me across courts and shout out that Federer is playing, and laugh uncontrollably at his joke.