ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
That explains a lot ... none of this is your fault.
They Teach Doubles Wrong.
- Thread starter travlerajm
- Start date
That explains a lot ... none of this is your fault.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
We should probably define "azz to close to the alley". We used the term "straight up" doubles to mean ... cover your side, cover your alley, no called poaching but responsible to cut off and put away sitters, no I or AUS, RP starting at service line and responsible to close net on partner decent ros (don't buy this is not a good enough position to close net from in rec doubles)... ".
So for example ... a very good experienced 4.5 doubles team playing players they are not familiar with might start the match playing straight up and see if they need to change/add things like I, AUS, poaching, net positions, RP staying back,etc. Most of us learned cookie cutter generic rules like always poach don't hold up, simetimes straight up is your best for that day/team. Different levels of serves, spot/target serve control, opponent ros skills including how they are returning that day. This is where we define azz to close to the alley. A typical straight up SP net position will be in middle of box, nose not right on net. Cover your alley here really means in rec doubles don't leave it wide open like you see the pros doing. If your lateral coverage gets you to the singles line, maybe a little more ... we would consider you covering your side of the court. In rec doubles ... the partner should be able to cover the rest. But the dead center of the service box at the net often gets tweaked even in straight up doubles. For example ... my best ad serve was kicker wide. If my partner moved too far left ... it got into my line. Partner position was not wrong as far as position ... but our odds of winning went up if he moved right far enough for me to hit my best serve. We were not into this kneeling thing, so the need for partner to move over just enough.
Also ... your "banging your serve in". I have had 4.5 partners with banging serves I positioned tight to middle, and banging serve partners that I took a step wider (or subtle bend and lean on ad side
). There is controlled bangers ... and their are the "others" ... they know who they are.Rec doubles will generally be won or loss based on UE (ros %, sitters to net player, double faults, missed volleys and overheads). It's why you will often see veteran 4.5 doubles teams winning tournaments playing straight up low UE doubles against a lot of formation/poaching overthinking. My experience with poaching is the called/premeditated poach with a good server is the easy poach. The harder poach ... is the reaction poach where you have very little time to decide if you can get to it and put it away. Being aggressive at the wrong time constantly is no good. Sending a message is one thing ... but another if the message is I will give you points all day with my misguided aggression.
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
I remember calling plays when playing doubles, now as old dudes we dont. Sad.We should probably define "azz to close to the alley". We used the term "straight up" doubles to mean ... cover your side, cover your alley, no called poaching but responsible to cut off and put away sitters, no I or AUS, RP starting at service line and responsible to close net on partner decent ros (don't buy this is not a good enough position to close net from in rec doubles)... ".
So for example ... a very good experienced 4.5 doubles team playing players they are not familiar with might start the match playing straight up and see if they need to change/add things like I, AUS, poaching, net positions, RP staying back,etc. Most of us learned cookie cutter generic rules like always poach don't hold up, simetimes straight up is your best for that day/team. Different levels of serves, spot/target serve control, opponent ros skills including how they are returning that day. This is where we define azz to close to the alley. A typical straight up SP net position will be in middle of box, nose not right on net. Cover your alley here really means in rec doubles don't leave it wide open like you see the pros doing. If your lateral coverage gets you to the singles line, maybe a little more ... we would consider you covering your side of the court. In rec doubles ... the partner should be able to cover the rest. But the dead center of the service box at the net often gets tweaked even in straight up doubles. For example ... my best ad serve was kicker wide. If my partner moved too far left ... it got into my line. Partner position was not wrong as far as position ... but our odds of winning went up if he moved right far enough for me to hit my best serve. We were not into this kneeling thing, so the need for partner to move over just enough.
Also ... your "banging your serve in". I have had 4.5 partners with banging serves I positioned tight to middle, and banging serve partners that I took a step wider (or subtle bend and lean on ad side
Rec doubles will generally be won or loss based on UE (ros %, sitters to net player, double faults, missed volleys and overheads). It's why you will often see veteran 4.5 doubles teams winning tournaments playing straight up low UE doubles against a lot of formation/poaching overthinking. My experience with poaching is the called/premeditated poach with a good server is the easy poach. The harder poach ... is the reaction poach where you have very little time to decide if you can get to it and put it away. Being aggressive at the wrong time constantly is no good. Sending a message is one thing ... but another if the message is I will give you points all day with my misguided aggression.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Partner used hand signals before poaching. He was a HS football & baseball catcher. Could be effective. Also recall he snapped the head off a Snauwaert racquet on an OH.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Got a lil serve in my left ear playing mxd BITD.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Today’s match went well. A few times when we got crossed up. But overall it worked out pretty well. I was using an experimental racquet, which cost us second set. But went back to more my usual for the super and then we pulled away.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Good news ... a win and no partnergeddon. You have no chance to win an argument with a wife or a mixed partner ... and if they are one in the same you need to rethink your tennis life choices. At a minimum ... buy a comfortable couch to sleep on.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Dunno, worth the price of admission if the spouses are on opposing teams.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Oh ... I did not say I would not want to watch trav "teach" his mixed partner. I can multitask ... both give sound advice and enjoy it when said advice is ignored.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Then they are experienced but not highly-skilled. And maybe they've gotten yelled at by too many lower-skilled partners.
I accept that my partners won't necessarily play at my level [ie as a 4.5 guy playing 8.0 MXDs]; I just work with whatever I've got. I can't change the way they play in real-time.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
"Charlie! Hey, Charlie! I'm going to poach, OK?? You got that?"
Shroud
G.O.A.T.
It was more hand signs.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Partner would stand on the service line and dare the returner to go DTL! Watched the Argentinian dubs too many times,
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
The contrast was so poor on the video, I couldn't see the ball. So I just had to watch the players and guess where the ball went. Kind of like watching that Bahrami skit where they play a rally in slow motion sans ball.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
That’s my kind of dubs.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
My kind of dubs too, 40 yrs ago
vex
Legend
Just for context, serve is my best shot. I really only hit 3 shots on first: wide, T and nuclear to the body. Could I mix in more variety? Sure. But in general decent returners are forced to stay honest in thier positioning and at best lunge a bit to defend. There is zero reason my partner should be hugging the alley on return (at least on first, I’m always trying to improve my second serve’s slice/kick). If Rec Djokovic shows up and spanks 3 DTL winners off my first… well ****, I’ll tip my cap and have my partner move back over. But it won’t matter bc that guy would beat us anyway.We should probably define "azz to close to the alley". We used the term "straight up" doubles to mean ... cover your side, cover your alley, no called poaching but responsible to cut off and put away sitters, no I or AUS, RP starting at service line and responsible to close net on partner decent ros (don't buy this is not a good enough position to close net from in rec doubles)... ".
So for example ... a very good experienced 4.5 doubles team playing players they are not familiar with might start the match playing straight up and see if they need to change/add things like I, AUS, poaching, net positions, RP staying back,etc. Most of us learned cookie cutter generic rules like always poach don't hold up, simetimes straight up is your best for that day/team. Different levels of serves, spot/target serve control, opponent ros skills including how they are returning that day. This is where we define azz to close to the alley. A typical straight up SP net position will be in middle of box, nose not right on net. Cover your alley here really means in rec doubles don't leave it wide open like you see the pros doing. If your lateral coverage gets you to the singles line, maybe a little more ... we would consider you covering your side of the court. In rec doubles ... the partner should be able to cover the rest. But the dead center of the service box at the net often gets tweaked even in straight up doubles. For example ... my best ad serve was kicker wide. If my partner moved too far left ... it got into my line. Partner position was not wrong as far as position ... but our odds of winning went up if he moved right far enough for me to hit my best serve. We were not into this kneeling thing, so the need for partner to move over just enough.
Also ... your "banging your serve in". I have had 4.5 partners with banging serves I positioned tight to middle, and banging serve partners that I took a step wider (or subtle bend and lean on ad side
Rec doubles will generally be won or loss based on UE (ros %, sitters to net player, double faults, missed volleys and overheads). It's why you will often see veteran 4.5 doubles teams winning tournaments playing straight up low UE doubles against a lot of formation/poaching overthinking. My experience with poaching is the called/premeditated poach with a good server is the easy poach. The harder poach ... is the reaction poach where you have very little time to decide if you can get to it and put it away. Being aggressive at the wrong time constantly is no good. Sending a message is one thing ... but another if the message is I will give you points all day with my misguided aggression.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yeah … I was just having a laugh thinking about the risk of being hit in the back by my friends/teammates serve. When the serve is slow want hurt much. The bigger server but under control, trust them. But there is that 3rd type of server … hits bigger pace but can’t trust his accuracy… on those take a step wider.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
In my mixed doubles practice match today, opposing female had fast flat first serve and dink second. Except one of those fast flat first serves konked her partner direct hit in the back of the skull. Risk of mixed doubles.Yeah … I was just having a laugh thinking about the risk of being hit in the back by my friends/teammates serve. When the serve is slow want hurt much. The bigger server but under control, trust them. But there is that 3rd type of server … hits bigger pace but can’t trust his accuracy… on those take a step wider.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I have only hit someone with my serve once. In my 20s ... was just learning kick serve ... indoors ... framed to back of head of mixed doubles partner ... She wobbled but no harm done. I could not have felt worse. The kick serve lived on ... but not mixed doubles.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Not with her, anyway.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
It was a tournament… she was more serious about it than I was. She wobbled and went right back to the net.
LuckyR
Legend
You need better competition.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Usta 8.0 mixed is much more than tennis. It’s kind of its own thing.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It was a tournament… she was more serious about it than I was. She wobbled and went right back to the net.
"Weebles Wobble But They Don't Fall Down"
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You ought to write a sonnet.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Or maybe haiku:
Mixed 8 can be great:
Dynamic imbalance, yes.
Mixing of talent.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
To survive in 8.0,
You can’t play straight up. You must
Move in mongoose mode.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
To survive mixed doubles
you must keep your mouth shut
Otherwise partner quits trying
and tells friends you are a butt
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Told my wife about your mixed ”education”. First thing out of her mouth was “that David Smith at xxx club told me to play in the alley”.
That was over 20 years ago and she remembers it like yesterday. Just sayin
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I don’t blame her. She is Exhibit A victim of They Teach Doubles Wrong.Told my wife about your mixed ”education”. First thing out of her mouth was “that David Smith at xxx club told me to play in the alley”.
That was over 20 years ago and she remembers it like yesterday. Just sayin
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I think @Shroud is right ... most of us were not taught. We are herd animals ... surviving depends on learning herd skills. If you do try and "stand out" never do it near the watering hole.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Don’t know if you’ve spent much time in Africa.
But in the elephant social scene, there are two types of herds:
Breeding herds, and Bachelor herds.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
you are in the Bachelor mixed herd
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
I literally told one of my students Sunday that when you are the non-returning partner, to straddle the service line only until you see the return has passed the net person, then you aggressively move forward and once you see the the next groundstroke take that aggressive step into the middle. They were always taught to stay on the service line the entire time. It was like a lightbulb went off in their head and started instantly playing better as a team.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
This is halfway the point I am making. But more importantly, the service line is, in most cases, a poor place to stand. So why start out there?
Why not do some math in your head before the point starts? If you think the odds of your partner’s return getting past the net person are pretty good, then why not start out in a more advantageous position to pressure the next shot?
Or if you think there is a good chance the return gets picked off by SP, then why not start in a better position to defend the putaway?
The point I’m making is that starting on service line has the advantage of making you flexible (you haven’t committed to offense or defense yet), but it has a really big disadvantage of being suboptimal for both cases.
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
For the record, this was rotational doubles class so not everyone has familiarity with their partner and also their opponents. Best to be at that halfway point to start off and go from there, plus the odds of a 3.5/4.0 putting away the first volley is typically not high, so even at the service line you have a chance to be in a good defensive spot to block that first volley.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
you are are defending the prevailing way of teaching it. I’m not saying it doesn’t have reasoning behind it. I’m saying that if you play a team that does it differently by optimizing “pre-snap” rather than “calling an option play”, that team will likely have an advantage.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
What I find strange is that there is no other time in doubles where a player would want to deliberately position himself suboptimally because he wants to wait and see what his partner is going to do before he makes his move to try to get into a stronger position. Yet somehow, everyone considers the RP starting position a special case where it makes sense.
I was taught that the RP can take an aggressive stance closer to the net on a 2nd serve. I literally never see it done (and don't do it myself) until I started playing mixed and my partner likes to do it. I have found that just moving your positioning out of the typical will be disruptive enough for a free point here and there.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I think the debate on the RP starting position deserves its own thread.
In my opinion, this is probably the single easiest way for a player of any level to instantly improve his/her win % in competitive doubles.
In my opinion, this is probably the single easiest way for a player of any level to instantly improve his/her win % in competitive doubles.
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
I think you may be over-generalizing though, you can vary your setup but your default should be what I described. As a match goes on you can/should change looks because that's tennis in nutshell.
There is great disadvantage though with having the non-returning partner strongly at the net, even a bad volley into the middle/cross-court becomes a winner. Playing two back can be optimal in a sense but you're putting yourself into a defensive position at the start of the point.
