How can doubles players learn to move and learn to poach?

[Cindysphinx]

I was practicing with some of my 3.0 teammates (we're on a 6.5 combo team). After a while, I kind of noticed something from the net players: Lack of movement.

The server's partner took up a position close to the net and stayed there the entire point. The receiver's partner took up a position at the service line and stayed there the entire point. Needless to say, there was hardly any poaching going on. Even when I hit a total wounded duck service return (I was working on learning to chip), these balls wouldn't be poached.

During one of the breaks, I asked everyone how many times they had struck a volley where they had to actually move (rather than having a ball come right to them at net). Answer: Never. We talked a bit about what the server's and receiver's partner should be doing (positioning in front of the ball, and moving forward and backward in response to defensive/offensive events happening on the court). Still, when we resumed, the flat-footed stationary net play continued. Old habits die hard.

We resolved to meet again on Thursday and try to fix this. These players do know how to volley. I've seen it. What we need is some mechanism to get us to *move.*

I know one drill, but I'm hoping you guys know some other ones or better ones.

The drill I know is that the server and receiver sustain a medium-paced crosscourt rally, their goal being consistency. The net players are told to try to poach and get into the point. Lobs are not allowed, but DTL shots are allowed (to keep the net players honest). The net players effectively compete to see who can pick off a ball earlier in the rally. The price of being a passive net player is that the opponent is blasting volleys at your shins, which is no fun.

Anyone got another drill that will help us position and move better at the net?

 

[Steady Eddy]

I think some of their problem might be they don't want to make a mistake. They think they have to be 100% certain of getting the return in order to poach. They also might be worried that their partner will believe that they're stealing their balls. But a good partner likes an aggressive net player, and the fact that sometimes it backfires, doesn't make them want to give up on pressuring opponents.

I think it's easier to understand from the other side of the net. Don't you hate it when the one at the net is aggressive and you have to worry about your return and what they're doing? And don't you like it when you have a net player who glues her feet to the court and lets you concentrate on going cross-court with your return? Tennis is a zero-sum game. What your opponents hate is what you should do. Maybe that will 'sell' them on this, and they'll get more practice in poaching actual sets?

 

[burosky]

Here's one. Play a set where two points is given when ever a poached shot leads to the pair winning the point. For example, on the first point, if the return of serve is poached by the server's partner and wins the point, the score becomes 30-0 right away. The server then proceeds to server on the duece side (same side) since this is where you would normally serve if the score was 30-0. Same thing if the receiving team was the one that wins the point through a poach.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Here's one. Play a set where two points is given when ever a poached shot leads to the pair winning the point. For example, on the first point, if the return of serve is poached by the server's partner and wins the point, the score becomes 30-0 right away. The server then proceeds to server on the duece side (same side) since this is where you would normally serve if the score was 30-0. Same thing if the receiving team was the one that wins the point through a poach.

Oh, cool. I like this.

So if I poach a return and we eventually win the point, we get the bonus. My poach does not have to be a clean winner, right?

Maybe we should also play lets if the poacher knocks the ball long or into the net . . . .

 

[Nellie]

This sound more like a movement/ aggressiveness problem, than a doubles problem. Here's a game I like a lot. Set up a target (tennis bag on its side/ bench, chair, etc) in on of the service boxes. While you are at the net and your partner is at the baseline, have a rally with your partner on the other half of the court from the target (or the other diagonol). The game is that you only get points for hitting the target, but your partner gets points for passing you or when you miss the target (that whole side of the court is "out"). What you will learn is to be agressive and attack when the ball is high/slow, but to hit the ball back to your partner at the baseline when the ball is low. If it is too hard, make a bigger target. Make sure your partner is not hitting you the same shot (i.e., feeding balls) because you want to be moving a step of two to get the volleys. After a couple of points, switch.

Similarly, I would suggest a game where you have a volley rally starting at the service line and moving in, while keeping score of who wins the rallies. The point is to encourage you to move forward and get to volleys and to hit agressive shots.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I was practicing with some of my 3.0 teammates (we're on a 6.5 combo team). After a while, I kind of noticed something from the net players: Lack of movement.

The server's partner took up a position close to the net and stayed there the entire point. The receiver's partner took up a position at the service line and stayed there the entire point. Needless to say, there was hardly any poaching going on. Even when I hit a total wounded duck service return (I was working on learning to chip), these balls wouldn't be poached.

During one of the breaks, I asked everyone how many times they had struck a volley where they had to actually move (rather than having a ball come right to them at net). Answer: Never. We talked a bit about what the server's and receiver's partner should be doing (positioning in front of the ball, and moving forward and backward in response to defensive/offensive events happening on the court). Still, when we resumed, the flat-footed stationary net play continued. Old habits die hard.

We resolved to meet again on Thursday and try to fix this. These players do know how to volley. I've seen it. What we need is some mechanism to get us to *move.*

I know one drill, but I'm hoping you guys know some other ones or better ones.

The drill I know is that the server and receiver sustain a medium-paced crosscourt rally, their goal being consistency. The net players are told to try to poach and get into the point. Lobs are not allowed, but DTL shots are allowed (to keep the net players honest). The net players effectively compete to see who can pick off a ball earlier in the rally. The price of being a passive net player is that the opponent is blasting volleys at your shins, which is no fun.

Anyone got another drill that will help us position and move better at the net?

I know a drill. :twisted:

 

[burosky]

Oh, cool. I like this.

So if I poach a return and we eventually win the point, we get the bonus. My poach does not have to be a clean winner, right?

Maybe we should also play lets if the poacher knocks the ball long or into the net . . . .

You only get the bonus when you win the point on the poach. It doesn't have to be a winner but you have to win it on the poach. This encourages effective poaches. A poach doesn't help much if it is returned and keeps the opponent in the point. Sometimes it can even lead to the poaching team losing the point because the poacher left the court open.

Don't play lets if the poacher makes a mistake. It doesn't serve any positive purpose.

 

[spot]

One drill I like is to have 6 people on the court. 2 on each side are back with one up. This lets the net person roam around without worrying about trying to cover the line. feed the ball from one deep person to another, after that the point is live. It makes it tougher on the back players as well- they really have to work to keep it away from the net person.

 

[Loco4Tennis]

i dont know if its my reflects that are not as good as i tought they were, or what, but the more agreesive players i play, meaning in doubles, the less i can poach, the balls is traveling too fast for me to even think about going for it on a last minute decision
funny thing is that my sister who played in HS tennis poached like their was no tomorrow, so when i am at the net i can't seem to poach as frequenttly as her, and i am the better player, with sound volley skills, not great but not bad either
so, unless i plan ahead of time to go for it and cordinate as to when i am going to go all-in with my doubles partner, there just does not seem to be a clear opportunity to poach
maybe i am just to causious to get passed on the doubles alley and seldom leave the area on my side unprotected, thus putting me too far outside to poach
but i also keep telling myself any attempt to poach at does speeds encountered at the 4.0 range are not easy
but then again as i mentioned earlier, it could just be me and my jedi reflects leaving me with old age, funny thing though, i am in my 30s

 

[Cindysphinx]

You know, I like the idea of rewarding players for botched poaches. The only way to determine your range in net movement is to try. If developing players are always under pressure that a botched poach will cost a point, they will do what they always do at net: Nothing.

I think one of my pals is way too conservative in her net play. She read in a book (revised "Art of Doubles," I think) that the correct philosophy of net play is "Just because you can take a ball doesn't mean you should." This is true.

But it also leads to some seriously underwhelming net play. I mean, you can't develop instincts if your threshold for poaching is Balls You Can't Possibly Miss. For purposes of practice, you have to go for balls you think you can't make. But you have to know what Impossible Balls look like.

I have to admit to some self-interest here, though. These ladies tend to be my combo partners. And when I serve, I know whether I hold is entirely up to me, 'cuz I'm not going to get any help. I sure would like to see that change . . .

 

[burosky]

You know, I like the idea of rewarding players for botched poaches. The only way to determine your range in net movement is to try. If developing players are always under pressure that a botched poach will cost a point, they will do what they always do at net: Nothing.

I think one of my pals is way too conservative in her net play. She read in a book (revised "Art of Doubles," I think) that the correct philosophy of net play is "Just because you can take a ball doesn't mean you should." This is true.

But it also leads to some seriously underwhelming net play. I mean, you can't develop instincts if your threshold for poaching is Balls You Can't Possibly Miss. For purposes of practice, you have to go for balls you think you can't make. But you have to know what Impossible Balls look like.

I have to admit to some self-interest here, though. These ladies tend to be my combo partners. And when I serve, I know whether I hold is entirely up to me, 'cuz I'm not going to get any help. I sure would like to see that change . . .

No argument here. People learn in different ways. If you think this will work better for them, go for it! The important thing is they learn.

 

[Loco4Tennis]

i was exposed to both types of players not too long ago, ones who liked to poach alot and one who hates it when i botch a poach, so, when i played with the poacher partner, i expected him to jump on every ball he liked, but all of this was prediscussed
while when i have to play the other partner, i know if i miss it they get pissed, so i dont do it because of that reason,
as the games with thsi partner whent on (he is my normal doubles partner), things got predictable with the nonpoaching, so, i started cordinating poaches, right before he serves i would go to him and let him know i am cutting across to get the return, this worked better, i dont know if this is a poach or rather a formation change
so, having said that IMO a good way to get someone to poach is to preplan it when and how,
if its agreed on, even if they miss i think it would be ok, i think this is much better for someone thats not that great at it, then to tell them to get all the ones they can

 

[Solat]

One drill I like is to have 6 people on the court. 2 on each side are back with one up. This lets the net person roam around without worrying about trying to cover the line. feed the ball from one deep person to another, after that the point is live. It makes it tougher on the back players as well- they really have to work to keep it away from the net person.

this one is good when you make it that the net player is the only one who can win the point, makes them work hard (and they have to move to avoid getting hit in the back of the head too!)

 

[burosky]

i was exposed to both types of players not too long ago, ones who liked to poach alot and one who hates it when i botch a poach, so, when i played with the poacher partner, i expected him to jump on every ball he liked, but all of this was prediscussed
while when i have to play the other partner, i know if i miss it they get pissed, so i dont do it because of that reason,
as the games with thsi partner whent on (he is my normal doubles partner), things got predictable with the nonpoaching, so, i started cordinating poaches, right before he serves i would go to him and let him know i am cutting across to get the return, this worked better, i dont know if this is a poach or rather a formation change
so, having said that IMO a good way to get someone to poach is to preplan it when and how,
if its agreed on, even if they miss i think it would be ok, i think this is much better for someone thats not that great at it, then to tell them to get all the ones they can

Pre-planning the poach is always a good thing. I think though the OPs concern is not just the start of the point. It is also about poaching during the point. In addition, it is not just the server's partner's poaching but all four players.

 

[raiden031]

Is it possible that they lack the athletic ability and/or fitness to move well for a poach?

 

[Cindysphinx]

this one is good when you make it that the net player is the only one who can win the point, makes them work hard (and they have to move to avoid getting hit in the back of the head too!)

Solat, that is pretty much what we did, and it worked beautifully!

We decided that the two players who started at the net would be the "Net Players." Only Net Players could score points or lose points. If a Net Player hit a volley winner, that was a point for her team. If she made a volley error, that was a point for the other team. All winners and errors from the server and returner were disregarded and a let was played. No ad scoring.

What do you know? As soon as the Net Players knew that standing still meant they'd never get a chance to earn a point, they started playing the net aggressively.

The server and returner hit more aggressively to make the opposing deep player hit something poachable. That in turn raised the bar and made poaching even more challenging.

The deep players started hitting much bigger angles on their shots to avoid the more active net players.

It paid big dividends to try to make the Net Player miss, so the server and returners tried to come to net to target the Net Player or tried to nail them outright with a groundstroke. Lobbing or passing down the alley was a waste of time, so it didn't happen.

There was only one disadvantage of this drill. Because the server and returner knew there was no penalty for missing, they missed *a lot.* One lady in particular would serve six first serves before getting one in. This slowed things down way too much. Next time, we are going to add a twist to prevent that: The server holds the three balls, and if she misses all three then she loses the point (and the returner loses the point if she misses that last return of the three).

Everyone said how helpful this drill was, and we'll be doing it again the next time we practice. Thanks, everyone!!!

 

[Nellie]

Couldn't you count double faults, but simply not count ground strokes (e.g., returns of serve) What would be the benefit of going for a winner on ground strokes (e.g., pass). If I was the net person, I would let all of the balls go buy that were not easy sitters.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Couldn't you count double faults, but simply not count ground strokes (e.g., returns of serve) What would be the benefit of going for a winner on ground strokes (e.g., pass). If I was the net person, I would let all of the balls go buy that were not easy sitters.

Yeah, we could just count doublefaults. That's a reasonable idea. We really wanted the burden to score to be totally on the net players, though. Anything that lets a team score points in other ways undermines that.

Should the net person let everything go by that is not an easy sitter? Maybe, if her goal is to win this practice game. If her goal is to learn to play the net better, then no.

But you're right, there is no benefit in going for an outright winner in this drill. The benefit was in either making the net person miss or making the deep person hit a floater.

On one point, I was the deep person but had followed my return to net. My partner was closer to the net. A sitter came up the middle. Normally, my net partner would be shy about taking that ball (BH volley) and would defer to me, forcing me to volley from a deeper position. Because the only way to score was for her to take it, she did. Mission accomplished!

This drill has a lot of potential. . . .

 

[Nellie]

Sorry - I was not trying to be a pain, only thinking out loud. Good luck with the practices.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Sorry - I was not trying to be a pain, only thinking out loud. Good luck with the practices.

Oh, you're never a pain! I asked for help, and I got it, Big Time. I really appreciate it.

You know, it is so easy to get stuck in a rut in your tennis. I'm glad to have three teammates who want to improve and are willing to try some different things.

Don't you want to know how I did with the poaching?

I stank it up out there. I kept going for balls that were out of reach, and then bailing. Which left me way out of position on the wrong side of the court, in my partner's way, and dodging her racket when she swung.

I have work to do.

 

[Steady Eddy]

I stank it up out there. I kept going for balls that were out of reach, and then bailing.

Nobody's perfect. Esp in tennis. But when you decide to 'go for it', go all the way. You've probably already faked out your partner, so there's nothing to lose at this point. Just keep running. Don't go for volleys with the thought in your mind, "If this doesn't seem right, I can always change my mind." You'll be too hesitant, and poison the poach. No guts, no glory.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Totally true, Steady. The result every time I aborted a poach was a miss by my partner on account of my interference. I need to -- what do you fellas say? -- "grow a pair" and keep going. Most of the time the first instinct that the ball is reachable is the correct one.

 

[LuckyR]

I stank it up out there. I kept going for balls that were out of reach, and then bailing. Which left me way out of position on the wrong side of the court, in my partner's way, and dodging her racket when she swung.

There is noting wrong with trying for balls and bailing. That is the hallmark of opportunity poaching (as opposed to planned/signalled poaching). As long as you let your partner know ahead of time that you are likely to try for lots of balls and for them not to automatically think "switch" when you start to go for a ball, you can be quite an effective netman and let a fair percent go through to the baseline player.