Djokovic officially top 3 now on all three surfaces in open era

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
How do we know Fed is better at RG ?

Federer got RG as a gift from Soderling

Thomas Muster dominated 1995 clay season like Superman and took his slam

So this if not for Nadal argument is not right ...Federer is not above muster on clay anywhere despite more RG final appearances which are useless
Muster underperformed at RG. Look at the runs in his career. Only made it to the SF or better twice in his career at RG despite winning MC and Rome 3 times each. Muster's 1995 run is better than anything Federer ever did on clay and I agree with you there, but I always look at RG 1st. Even so, I still probably would give it to Muster's career over Federer's based on Rome and MC.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Djokovic has won 3 out of the last 7 RG titles, the other 4 won by Nadal

One or both of Djokodal have been in every RG final since 2010.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
It’s an interesting stat but the fact Sampras is there for two of them implies a level playing field context.

But. Were the courts not faster in his day? Was clay not slower? Was there not a greater variety of CPI index and thus made the challenge of adapting to different surfaces a lot more difficult? I’d argue tennis was a lot more difficult then (especially when you take the polys out the rackets)

But today should be a day of celebration for Novak - his records speak for themselves in todays era. For me - he has shown to be the most tactically astute player EVER. His tie break record today said it all. 0 UE
 

Razer

Legend
Muster underperformed at RG. Look at the runs in his career. Only made it to the SF or better twice in his career at RG despite winning MC and Rome 3 times each. Muster's 1995 run is better than anything Federer ever did on clay and I agree with you there, but I always look at RG 1st. Even so, I still probably would give it to Muster's career over Federer's based on Rome and MC.

I checked Big title count on clay and it seems Novak is second at 14, Borg is 3rd highest at 12

But then when I checked total title count on clay I find Novak at 10th and Federer ranked 28th
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I checked Big title count on clay and it seems Novak is second at 14, Borg is 3rd highest at 12

But then when I checked total title count on clay I find Novak at 10th and Federer ranked 28th
Yea I think they play a lot less clay events in the calendar year compared to Borg and even Muster's days.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Peak for peak? A five set battle, but Guga would likely edge it more often that not. He was such a natural on that court and absolutely loved the high ball to his backhand.
And Djokovic struggles with peaking one handed backhand righties on clay. I always said it's because of the deception of the one hander and the disguise, not the power. To me, Djokovic is the GOAT two handed righty and he will eat up others like him. If you notice, their power doesn't bother him, like Alcaraz, Sinner, etc. But a peaking righty with a one hander who can hit power with those angles on clay is a problem. Lol. He'll beat them too but they're more challenging for him.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
And Djokovic struggles with peaking one handed backhand righties on clay. I always said it's because of the deception of the one hander and the disguise, not the power. To me, Djokovic is the GOAT two handed righty and he will eat up others like him. If you notice, their power doesn't bother him, like Alcaraz, Sinner, etc. But a peaking righty with a one hander who can hit power with those angles on clay is a problem. Lol.

This is very true. Djokovic has said many times already today that he struggles on clay and RG, toughest for him to win matches at, and you can see a few styles don't sit well with him, one of them being that single BH drive down the line.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
This is very true. Djokovic has said many times already today that he struggles on clay and RG, toughest for him to win matches at, and you can see a few styles don't sit well with him, one of them being that single BH drive down the line.
Yep that single BH down the line he can't read as well and gets fooled. Wawrinka and Thiem both gave him hell with that shot. Lol.
 

D_m_a

Semi-Pro
With his incredible win at RG, he leapfrogs Lendl, Wilander and Kuerten into the third spot.

Clay - Nadal, Borg, Djokovic,
Hard - Djokovic, Federer, Sampras
Grass - Federer, Sampras, Djokovic

Djokovic with 2 Monte Carlo, 3 Madrid, 6 Rome and 3 Roland Garros in the time that we saw the greatest single surface dominance of all time by Nadal carries immense weight.
How does Sampras beat Djokovic on grass ?
don't they both have 7 wimbledons ?

I'm guessing Sampras has more 250/500 (or equivalent in those days) grass tournaments?
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
How does Sampras beat Djokovic on grass ?
don't they both have 7 wimbledons ?

I'm guessing Sampras has more 250/500 (or equivalent in those days) grass tournaments?

Sampras has a couple of Queens titles. Pete has it over him for now.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Federer did also in 2011.
Yea but I think it's Federer's entire game that can unsettle him. He has an amazing serve which sets him up for 1-2 punches, he's great at net with great transitions, and his variety makes it hard to get into a rhythm.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Yea but I think it's Federer's entire game that can unsettle him. He has an amazing serve which sets him up for 1-2 punches, he's great at net with great transitions, and his variety makes it hard to get into a rhythm.

Fully agree, I mean I was watching that semi a couple of weeks back and saw how that BHDTL was hurting Djokovic time and time again. But yeah, his whole game is just bad for Djokovic in general because of his aggression.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Fully agree, I mean I was watching that semi a couple of weeks back and saw how that BHDTL was hurting Djokovic time and time again. But yeah, his whole game is just bad for Djokovic in general because of his aggression.
Yea agreed. The bhdtl definitely hurt Djokovic in that match.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Should Sampras be higher than Federer on grass ? @Hitman

7W + 2 Queens > 8W and some Mickey mouse Halle titles ?

Federer rightfully deserves to be number one on grass, and I say this as a huge Pete fan.

Most all time titles at Wimbledon, most finals at Wimbledon. 10 titles at Halle. A 65 match winning streak on grass. Yeah, Federer is number one and rightfully so.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
It cost him a chance to consolidate his break early on, let Federer back in and then allowed Federer to take the set....
Yea I remember he got burned quite a few times when he ran around his backhand and hit the inside out on the forehand and Federer burned him with the backhand down the line when he left that space open.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Yea I remember he got burned quite a few times when he ran around his backhand and hit the inside out on the forehand and Federer burned him with the backhand down the line when he left that space open.

If there is anything that Djokovic is vulnerable to, it is a power shot DTL to his forehand. This is why Nadal's FH DTL, and Federer's, Thiem's and Wawrinka's BH DTL hurt him. He is often more left of center in neutral rally points, and if quite often forced to play defensive shots if they pull the trigger DTL midway through the rally.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
If there is anything that Djokovic is vulnerable to, it is a power shot DTL to his forehand. This is why Nadal's FH DTL, and Federer's, Thiem's and Wawrinka's BH DTL hurt him. He is often more left of center in neutral rally points, and if quite often forced to play defensive shots if they pull the trigger DTL midway through the rally.
Yea I agree with this, especially if he's already leaning to his left. It's hard for to him to reset and get back on balance, and hit a strong rally ball.
 

The Guru

Legend
Honestly I think you could have made a pretty strong case for him at 3 before 2021 now I don’t see how he’s not 3. No one has anywhere near his longevity and he had to face Nadal in nearly all his best years.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Yea I agree with this, especially if he's already leaning to his left. It's hard for to him to reset and get back on balance, and hit a strong rally ball.

That is it. But it is only when they can redirect off a rally ball, because normally you play the percentages. He gets back more than he sees blast past him, but many times he surrenders control. However when he is moving laterally and moving the ball around, then that shot doesn't hut him in any way.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
That is it. But it is only when they can redirect off a rally ball, because normally you play the percentages. He gets back more than he sees blast past him, but many times he surrenders control. However when he is moving laterally and moving the ball around, then that shot doesn't hut him in any way.
Yea that's quite true.
 

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
If there is anything that Djokovic is vulnerable to, it is a power shot DTL to his forehand. This is why Nadal's FH DTL, and Federer's, Thiem's and Wawrinka's BH DTL hurt him. He is often more left of center in neutral rally points, and if quite often forced to play defensive shots if they pull the trigger DTL midway through the rally.

And today Ruud decided to hit overheads into the net instead
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Yea that's quite true.

It's not easy to get the ball past when he is in lockdown for this very reason compared to the neutral rally ball where pulling the trigger stings him, because when he is in lockdown, he moves the ball around more and moves around the court from left to right non stop.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Honestly I think you could have made a pretty strong case for him at 3 before 2021 now I don’t see how he’s not 3. No one has anywhere near his longevity and he had to face Nadal in nearly all his best years.
No, he didn't. Federer can say he was blocked by prime Nadal a lot on clay. Djokovic, not so much.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
It's not easy to get the ball past when he is lockdown for this very reason compared to the neutral rally ball where pulling the trigger stings him, because when he is in lockdown, he moves the ball around more and moves around the court from left to right non stop.
Yep. If he's playing his controlled aggressive style, he's not really vulnerable to that shot because he's usually in control, but if the rally is neutral or he's playing passively, he becomes vulnerable to that shot in backhand to backhand rallies.
 
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Hitman

Bionic Poster
Yep. If he's playing his controlled aggressive style, he's not really vulnerable to that shot because he's usually in control, but if the rally is neutral or he's playing passively, he becomes vulnerable to shot in backhand to backhand rallies.

Yes, and that is the one thing Djokovic's team try to work on when he plays someone who has that capability. Notice how in the RG final when Ruud was going BHDTL in neutral balls early on caught Novak off balance. That was a clear tactical play, Ruud doesn't use that shot that often, but he was in this final...Novak figured it, and became more dynamic with his movement, and forced Ruud to hit even closer to the line until he started missing that shot...Ruud then tried to run around his BH to hit his FH DTL, but many times Novak was waiting for it....Basically Novak read the play book and stopped it.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Yes, and that is the one thing Djokovic's team try to work on when he plays someone who has that capability. Notice how in the RG final when Ruud was going BHDTL in neutral balls early on caught Novak off balance. That was a clear tactical play, Ruud doesn't use that shot that often, but he was in this final...Novak figured it, and became more dynamic with his movement, and forced Ruud to hit even closer to the line until he started missing that shot...Ruud that tried to run around his BH to hit his FH DTL, but many times Novak was waiting for it....Basically Novak read the play book and stopped it.
Yea I noticed and Ruud actually hurt him a few times with the bhdtl but I thought Djokovic was tight and not really moving his feet that well for most of that 1st set. Once Djokovic started moving better he was onto that shot and handled it much better.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Yea I noticed and Ruud actually hurt him a few times with the bhdtl but I thought Djokovic was tight and not really moving his feet that well for most of that 1st set. Once Djokovic started moving better he was onto that shot and handled it much better.

Yes, hence our main discussion point, and why playing on clay is that much harder for him. (y)
 

timnz

Legend
With his incredible win at RG, he leapfrogs Lendl, Wilander and Kuerten into the third spot.

Clay - Nadal, Borg, Djokovic,
Hard - Djokovic, Federer, Sampras
Grass - Federer, Sampras, Djokovic

Djokovic with 2 Monte Carlo, 3 Madrid, 6 Rome and 3 Roland Garros in the time that we saw the greatest single surface dominance of all time by Nadal carries immense weight.
How does he leap frog Lendl, Wilander and Lendl On clay? Perhaps when considering other clay titles.
 

Holmes

Hall of Fame
Federer rightfully deserves to be number one on grass, and I say this as a huge Pete fan.

Most all time titles at Wimbledon, most finals at Wimbledon. 10 titles at Halle. A 65 match winning streak on grass. Yeah, Federer is number one and rightfully so.
7 in 8 years, undefeated in finals, broken just 4 times in finals overall, playing in a field of grass greats and ATGs when careers ended in early 30s and without poly or homogenization while it took Fed 10 years to equal his Wimbledon title count and 15 years and an injured finalist to surpass it...yeah I'm going to disagree there. Fed's grass stats are incredible but Pete was as close as any mortal has come to being Nadal-esque at a slam.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
7 in 8 years, undefeated in finals, broken just 4 times in finals overall, playing in a field of grass greats and ATGs when careers ended in early 30s and without poly or homogenization while it took Fed 10 years to equal his Wimbledon title count and 15 years and an injured finalist to surpass it...yeah I'm going to disagree there. Fed's grass stats are incredible but Pete was as close as any mortal has come to being Nadal-esque at a slam.

You're telling me that losing a quarter final to Krajicek and failing to make the final is more impressive than Federer making 7 straight finals and losing 9-7 fifth in one of them, while winning the other six? Federer also has crazy longevity, 12 finals, nearly beat Djokodal back to back at near 38 years of age.

I understand the argument to who had the higher peak on grass, but you cannot have someone over Federer if that someone has less grass slams overall, less finals, less titles. Accomplished wise it is Federer.
 
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