socallefty
G.O.A.T.
The easiest to resell are Pure Drives and Pure Aeros.
Why is everyone using such light racquets? Can we really not handle it?
- Thread starter HunterST
- Start date
TennisHound
Legend
Yep, they’re all being bought by post-shoulder injury players who used too heavy of a racquet for too long.
So they go to too stiff, smart.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Play a singles tournament with at least 4 matches in the summer, see if there is a dropoff in kick serves or groundies after the frist 2 hours of a match.
GodlessEndeavor
Semi-Pro
If you add weight little by little it will be hard to tell, as you'd be the figurative "frog in the boiling pot" in that case.
But if you add a lot of weight at once you'll definitely be able to tell the difference. If the racquet feels too sluggish or you get a sore wrist/forearm/shoulder after a relatively short playing session, you'll know you went too far and need to either go back to the previous weight, or add a smaller amount than you had added. If you like how the racquet feels and don't feel any bad physical effects, you can add more weight if you want to.
TennisHound
Legend
Pretty sure the topic of the thread is heavy vs light, not stiff vs soft. Smart
People switch from heavy rackets to medium weight stiff rackets because they are post shoulder injury, smart.
TennisHound
Legend
People get over gregarious with heavy racquets and injure their shoulder serving (without warming up, or in a long match). They may have used a heavy racquet when they were younger and now that they’re older they can’t generate the same rhs. So they over try and end up with injury. So, they go to a lighter more manageable frame. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Babolat, Dunlop, Wilson or whatever bro.
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Makes sense bro. Except for babolat.
PistolPete23
Hall of Fame
I’m sure it’s been said and said again, but choosing a racquet weight (or SW) depends a lot on how you swing the racquet and also the level of competition you’re facing. Try swinging a wooden racquet repeatedly with a western grip next-gen style, and you’re setting yourself up for injury. But if you hit flat with an eastern or continental grip, a heavy racquet becomes easier to swing. And because you’re hitting through the ball instead of brushing up, you need the extra mass to not be overpowered against heavy hitters. At the end of the day, you use whatever works for you that gives a balance of stability and “swingability.” If you’re serving and having trouble accelerating the racquet, that might be an indication that you’re not comfortable using such a heavy frame.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I've just recently gone heavier with one frame just to see how it goes- 300 grams to 315, SW up around 8 points. Its still not super heavy, but the specs are 336 and 331 SW which is not light by any means.
What I have noticed so far with this racquet is pretty positive. It really helps me on volleys, slows my swing speed down a bit and while the ball feels like it's coming off a little slower, my regular partner says I am hitting harder. Serve is also a bit slower (it feels like) in the motion but yet I get the same amount of aces while it's rarely attack and my DFs have dropped.I also can whip up on short balls so I'm not too slow on those types of shots.
So far it has been great, but it's still a small sample size. Regardless the extra weight feels really good on and while I have really appreciated the 300 gram frames with stability, there is something to using the heavier one. When I found this site and needed a new racquet, I was mainly using 315-320 gram frames. But I slowly went down to 305 and 300s. It's nice to revisit the heavier weight class.
What I have noticed so far with this racquet is pretty positive. It really helps me on volleys, slows my swing speed down a bit and while the ball feels like it's coming off a little slower, my regular partner says I am hitting harder. Serve is also a bit slower (it feels like) in the motion but yet I get the same amount of aces while it's rarely attack and my DFs have dropped.I also can whip up on short balls so I'm not too slow on those types of shots.
So far it has been great, but it's still a small sample size. Regardless the extra weight feels really good on and while I have really appreciated the 300 gram frames with stability, there is something to using the heavier one. When I found this site and needed a new racquet, I was mainly using 315-320 gram frames. But I slowly went down to 305 and 300s. It's nice to revisit the heavier weight class.
bertrevert
Legend
I've just recently gone lighter, down to 300 grams...
(String Theory: at this lighter weight it feels as if strings make a bigger difference, perhaps as there is less mass then whatever the characteristics of the strings are they thus seem emphasised? The lighter racquet transmits more shock, or can do so, and I really notice the strings more. So poly is more noticeably sharp at contact. Syn gut proves powerless. Modern multis like Velocity nicely blend power and some deadness/spin so you can go for it.)
Having said this I am having some elbow issues for the first time in ages. Lighter feels greater but then too light may end worse...
The 300g (unstrung) helps me out in matches.
I can certainly start a match w heavier racquet but cannot finish as play degrades over time.
Starting w lighter racq may mean some stray shots to begin with. But the lightness allows more flexibility to arrive at the shot and setup EVERY time, even when the going gets tough.
(String Theory: at this lighter weight it feels as if strings make a bigger difference, perhaps as there is less mass then whatever the characteristics of the strings are they thus seem emphasised? The lighter racquet transmits more shock, or can do so, and I really notice the strings more. So poly is more noticeably sharp at contact. Syn gut proves powerless. Modern multis like Velocity nicely blend power and some deadness/spin so you can go for it.)
Having said this I am having some elbow issues for the first time in ages. Lighter feels greater but then too light may end worse...
The 300g (unstrung) helps me out in matches.
I can certainly start a match w heavier racquet but cannot finish as play degrades over time.
Starting w lighter racq may mean some stray shots to begin with. But the lightness allows more flexibility to arrive at the shot and setup EVERY time, even when the going gets tough.
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GodlessEndeavor
Semi-Pro
I decided to find out my swing weight limit - I added a bunch of tungsten tape to 12 o' clock on my Vcore 98 2023, which brought the swing weight up to an estimated 400-420. It was great fun to play with for a 2 hour session yesterday - great on groundstrokes (easy power and very solid feeling), fine for serves although I had to adapt my timing quite a bit.
When I played with the same racquet again the next day it was feeling a bit too sluggish at the end of a ~2h30m session - again serves being the biggest issue. So I guess this is close to my limit or past it, depending on how I look at it. I decided to take 6g of tape off, which lowers the swing weight to somewhere between 380 to 400. Curious to see how this affects things next time I play.
Funnily enough, this experiment actually made my arm feel better than it was feeling a couple of days ago.
For reference I'm 6ft tall, not a great tennis player but reasonably strong (can deadlift 320 lbs for reps with a trap bar, which I guess gives some indication of forearm strength).
When I played with the same racquet again the next day it was feeling a bit too sluggish at the end of a ~2h30m session - again serves being the biggest issue. So I guess this is close to my limit or past it, depending on how I look at it. I decided to take 6g of tape off, which lowers the swing weight to somewhere between 380 to 400. Curious to see how this affects things next time I play.
Funnily enough, this experiment actually made my arm feel better than it was feeling a couple of days ago.
For reference I'm 6ft tall, not a great tennis player but reasonably strong (can deadlift 320 lbs for reps with a trap bar, which I guess gives some indication of forearm strength).
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
You are relatively strong, but for tennis, that's not too applicable unless you can deadlift 30 pounds every few minutes a few times or so with short breaks for 2.5 hours.
I've never played with a 30 lb racket. Any adult can swing a medium weight racket with a decent swing weight for a tennis match. If you are exhausted in the 3rd set, the weight of the racket isn't the issue.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Of course I wasn't meaning literally the weight , just the concept of 10 reps or 1 max rep doesn't translate to tennis.
Everything depends on what medium SW is, so its' hard to discuss.
But yes, any player can pick up and hit or swing a racket for 3 sets, but can they do it with high RHS and not even a 1% decrease in ability to chase down a ball or serve impact? Depends on what SW we are talking about.
Furthermore, if serious about tennis you are probably playing tournaments or ending up in regionals/state, sectionals, and nationals if everything is timed right. That will almost certainly require one to play 2 singles matches mid-event in one day, most often in 100 degree or higher heat. Doubles, yeah , doesn't matter really that much.
TennisHound
Legend
Remember that there are no limits on the weight of racquet you can swing, if you use your legs, prepare early, and have a full swing.
Back when I was eight years old or so, my grandmother gave me her current wood racquet, which was around 15.3oz. It felt heavy, but even as a small child, I learned to use my legs and whole body to swing the massive wood racquet.
And now today we have complete weaklings (who claim to be grown men) complaining about a mere 13oz little twig. I’ve never heard such whining about sore shoulders and achey limbs. I’m completely embarrassed by such weak and frailness in todays rec game.
“…Go home frail children and let your mothers nurse the feeble and decrepit flimsiness from your limbs lest you fall into weak and utter oblivion!” - Lars
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TennisHound
Legend
You know lefty, I’ve pondered your response and it sounds like you might’ve stolen some racquets from a pro shop? Idk
LOL, no need to put that much lead on a stick. Just buy this "Power String" training tool....600g plus wind resistance!
Sissy Twig is 319 SW and below
Light is 320-329 SW
Medium is 330-339 SW
Heavy is 340-349 SW
Log is 350-359 SW
Thor's Hammer is 360 SW and above
I just made that up but it sounds logical to me. I think a smaller adult could have some difficulty trying to use 340 SW or above but any adult can use 320-339 SW with a little practice and my personal view is it would be better for their game than the many light stock rackets with a SW under 320.
Bhagi Katbamna
Legend
I can use a heavier racket. The issue for me is that if I hit it off-center and the racket is flexible, I get pain in my shoulder. The Pure Drive just makes playing tennis easier for someone my age(57). I don't get pain from using it but do sometimes using a Flex-Point Prestige or a You-tek or IG Prestige. I can swing the heavier racket though(esp. after doing regular weight lifting).
TennisHound
Legend
There is no excuse (according to the OP and Suresh) if you’re not using at least a 13oz racquet. For that matter, a 13.5oz would be a good starting place. (sarcasm)
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
That might be a tad heavy or if it isn't, everyone in college is using a light or sissy twig lol.
TennisHound
Legend
Sounds about right.
bertrevert
Legend
Which all goes to show how sensitive this all is...
I mean if the first 300-320 SW points not matter much to all adults then suddenyl it all happens in the next 3 or 4 increments-of-10 bands thereafter, from 320 to 360, then that all goes to illustrate it repays us amateurs to pay particular attention to what SW suits us.
If the first 320 points not matter much then in the next 40 points it all noticeably happens then aren't we noting that in the last tenth or ninth of this measure it becomes really noticeable!
So no all you heavier-than-thou zealots haven't got a handle on how sensitive a measure it must be afaik.
It's not heavy vs light at all.
It's all about a very small margin that affects us all...
TennisHound
Legend
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GodlessEndeavor
Semi-Pro
You're really making an effort to make this thread reach the number of pages you predicted aren't you ?
a 10 point difference in SW is roughly 3% so it isn't really that small of a difference. Try increasing SW from 320 to 330 on a frame and you should see a very noticeable difference in power and stability. My opinion is SW below 320 is insufficient to handle the weight of an incoming ball even at moderate pace and SW above 350 isn't really necessary unless you are playing at a very very high level and/or very very strong and fit. But, I am sure there are many that disagree. Again, I would challenge anyone playing a SW under 320 to bump it up a little and allow time to adjust. My feeling is most players would play better with SW 320 or higher and 320-329 SW with a HL balance is still really light and maneuverable.
GodlessEndeavor
Semi-Pro
There's definitely some separation between strength and endurance so your point is well taken, but there's also overlap. You only have one set of tendons for example, surely strengthening those has benefits even for endurance-based efforts.
Furthermore tennis is not a pure endurance sport, it also uses explosive strength. If you look at tennis pro workout videos they constantly do plyometric exercises.
Umm, I find it easier to serve with 330-335 SW vs 315 SW. Granted, if I went up to 350 SW, it might be a problem but I think my RHS is about the same at 315 or 330 SW. It would be interesting to see if people actually swing slower for 315 vs 330 SW after a few weeks of adjustment time. I also think the better your technique, the less likely you are to have an issue with a slightly higher SW.
muddlehead
Professional
I'm old. 13.50 ounces in the house.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Idk if it’s I can’t use a lighter racket Vs. headlight. I have a Tfight 305 and I enjoy the pattern. 18x19 might be the best pattern I’ve used.
I add 12 grams to the handle. Then OG. And it feels fantastic. Maybe bc I’m used to the pure storm tour from back in the day.
I add 12 grams to the handle. Then OG. And it feels fantastic. Maybe bc I’m used to the pure storm tour from back in the day.
TennisHound
Legend
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I'm not versed in physics, but I guess there is some optimum for each player with regards to heaviness of frame.
My lay understanding of the physics of playing tennis:
1) You accelerate a ball using force.
2) How big this force is, depends on the mass you move and the speed by which you move it.
3) Therefore you can reach the same force either by increasing mass or increasing speed. However more mass usually means less speed.
So you could optimize your speed by using the heaviest frame you could easily move. For some people, it would be good to move from 300 to 310g, because their speed by which they move their racquet does not drop of hence the additional mass helps with acceleration. But for some people, a 10g increase in static weight would decrease their RHS so significantly, that their ball would be slower.
I'm pretty sure you could adapt by lifting weights and get some muscle memory. But honest to god: built muscle before you buy a outlandish heavy racquet. If you grow into one, great. If not: great too!
And additional fact might be advancement of technology. Heavy racquets were prevalent in an era where Gut & Multi were used more widely. Poly changed the game.
My lay understanding of the physics of playing tennis:
1) You accelerate a ball using force.
2) How big this force is, depends on the mass you move and the speed by which you move it.
3) Therefore you can reach the same force either by increasing mass or increasing speed. However more mass usually means less speed.
So you could optimize your speed by using the heaviest frame you could easily move. For some people, it would be good to move from 300 to 310g, because their speed by which they move their racquet does not drop of hence the additional mass helps with acceleration. But for some people, a 10g increase in static weight would decrease their RHS so significantly, that their ball would be slower.
I'm pretty sure you could adapt by lifting weights and get some muscle memory. But honest to god: built muscle before you buy a outlandish heavy racquet. If you grow into one, great. If not: great too!
And additional fact might be advancement of technology. Heavy racquets were prevalent in an era where Gut & Multi were used more widely. Poly changed the game.
Yes, in general you are correct but consider this. Tennis consist of many shots that are not hit at max RHS. Defensive topspin rollers, slices, block flat/topspin returns, chip returns, volleys and 1/2 volleys are not hit at max RHS. All these shots requiring less than max RHS are better with higher SW. Also, when injecting pace into a rally by using more RHS, it is optimal to be on balance and able to use your body. If you are balanced and using your body handling higher weight is relatively easy. Final comment on RHS: I would rather be able to get really good pace and spin by taking a swing with 70-80% of max RHS vs having to swing near 90% of max RHS to get equivalent pace and spin. Djokovic and Wawrinka are good examples here in that they get easy power at times from high SW (360+) rackets. I find it much easier to get power and spin with 330-335SW than 315-320SW.
Seems like there are many here that "assume" an increase in static weight or SW slows RHS significantly. I think going from 300G to 315G static weight or from say 315SW to 325SW will have little real impact on RHS or maneuverability. Yes, increasing from 320G static weight to say 340G or more could have a significant impact on RHS but going from 320G to 330G strung static weight can be accomplished without a significant decrease in RHS and any decrease in RHS would be offset by increased power, spin and stability.
Blakefan17
Rookie
How heavy is too heavy? How does one know? For example if I can comfortably use a 12.4oz strung frame for 2hrs w no drop in RHS and all of the perceived benefits of a heavy stick, what is the issue? I’m 32 and rarely have the opportunity to play consecutive matches (god forbid I didn’t a job, bills, etc).
One measurement is can you play effectively for a full match. Another way to determine too heavy, too light or just right is how it feels and plays for your strokes. In my view, how it feels and plays is more important because honestly unless there is a massive difference in weight, it isn't making you tired after 2 hours. You are tired after 2 hours because you are an amateur athlete and we are all tired after 2 hours regardless of racket weight within reason.
Blakefan17
Rookie
I think this is an important take because also - if a heavier stick makes me enjoy the two hours I am able to play with it every few days I’d rather do that.
TennisHound
Legend
The OP probably drank a boatload of coffee had a good 30 minute hitting session on the wall, typed out this thread and then left, lol
Blakefan17
Rookie
But man, imagine the quality of that session!
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
There are way too many generalizations being used in here for any sort of declarative statement to apply. I see all sorts of adults playing when I got to my local courts, and they have all types of swings. Suffice to say, the vast majority of them do even take full swings, nor do they swing with anything that could be considered high racquet head speed (and let's not even talk about an ATP style forehand, or something like that). The average age of these people is also probably around 55 or higher. That said, you will also on the rare occasion see some people (high school or college players, people who played at a high level when they were younger) who do have full and modern swings, and seem to be on a different planet to everyone else around them.
So who are we talking about here? Because sure, those players just wristing or arming the ball (mostly playing doubles), and/or blocking everything back, can use a heavier racquet for a few hours without issue, but it's like a totally different sport compared to an adult at least trying to swing properly and playing an intense singles match.
Anyway, getting back to the main point, as others have said it really comes down to what works best for an individual game. For me personally, I have a relatively full/fast swing and try to emulate an "ATP style" forehand (not very well, but I try), and for a while my preferred racquet was a Vcor Pro 97HD. Then, due to a minor wrist injury from a different sport that was being aggravated from time to time, I experimented with the Vcore Pro 97 and Vcore 95, but noticeably lighter than the HD, and I found that both of these racquets helped my game quite a bit. Most significantly, it was easier for me to "snap my wrist" and generate that little bit of additional racquet head speed on my forehand. Yes, I can still swing that was with the heavier HD and D, but it was just easier with the lighter racquets, and indeed less fatiguing. Also, I felt no significant drop off in stability, nor did it create problems or a negative sensation when hitting harder incoming balls. And while these racquets are both listed as 310g on the frame, they have swingweights that would be considered very low to "sissy" by some of the people in here... but they play just fine (even for those "sissy" touch volleys at the net that I love so much).
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Everyone plays with light rackets because of marketing. It's super easy to sell a racket in a store if it's easy to swing. So make them light and boost power through stiffness. There was an ongoing arms race to the lightest frame with the most power. Then people started getting arm injuries and finally there has been some work making more comfortable rackets. But comfort still doesn't sell like power and spin. Everyone wants the easy way to victory. So I doubt we'll ever go back to heavier frames like the 80's.
TennisHound
Legend
I have added more weight to my Blade Team and I’ve been playing better. I’ve just added a heavier grip 22g (13-14g is stock) and 2 extra 4” strips at 12 (also with lead the length of the headguard). I wasn’t a fan of the heavier grip initially until I played several matches and it just felt more solid. So all in all, 11.7oz strung, about 3-4pts HL. I would estimate SW around 326-328.
It's VERY difficult to play at men's 4.5 level with anything lighter than 300g static weight unstrung and 320 swing weight strung. 300g-315g unstrung and 320-335 swing weight (strung). I found it's really difficult to return a 105+ mph serve with a less than 320sw. The racquet just gets completely pushed around. If you are a "rabbit". I don't find too many players with well-developed games that play with anything lighter and most play with something heavier. Most common ones that I see at 4.5 level are Blade, Speed Pro, Pure Aero+, some VCore 97's, some PS97's, a few Pure Drives, a few regular Pure Aeros, a few Gravity Tour's, a few Clash Pro's. Most of the folks that do use something lighter are older and using an oversize (Blade 104 or PD 107) with a highly elastic string. Average it all out and you have 305g static weight, 99 sq in headsize, 325ish swing weight, and an RA around 65. There's probably a reason why that's the average. Not too light to play against big servers and not too heavy to play against pushers.
TennisHound
Legend
I agree that it takes a slightly heavier racquet to handle the pace of solid 4.5 play (even some 4.0 play). Most of the 4.5s in our league use plain racquets around 305g and up. However, there are always the exceptions. Our 5.0 uses a stock PDVS and one guy uses a Tecnifibre 300. Another older 4.5 (58yo) who used to play 5.5 uses some older Wilson 95 that weighs about 10.7oz strung and he clobbers the ball.
I’ve played against some of them with my Blade Team weighted to 11.3oz (without leather grip), but felt much more comfortable at 11.7oz (with leather grip and some more lead at 12). It doesn’t have to be leather but a little more weight in the handle helps steady the frame.
This. Most important is getting your weight behind the ball and hitting in front.
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