Did Head invented prostocks?

A

Anni.Angel

Semi-Pro
In my mind PT57A is the epitome of prostock. Most documented, best known prostock, and maybe the most iconic prostock racquet, the holy grail of tennis racquets.

As far as I know, Wilson followed suit with H19 and H22. Then came the prostock Steam series.

Prostock = an exclusive mold and layout that is only available for the pros. Wilson made the H22 available through Pro series but still... I guess you can understand what I mean by prostock. Let's differentiate between Prostock and SMU (Special Make Up/Customized frames).

In my opinion Yonex and Babolat don't have prostocks, they only have SMUs.

Does anyone know better who invented this niche of racquets that is in high demand on the black market and how it developed into what we have today?

LE: I couldn't make my mind for the title and was left with a typo.
 
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Purestriker

Purestriker

Legend
Anni.Angel said:
In my mind PT57A is the epitome of prostock. Most documented, best known prostock, and maybe the most iconic prostock racquet, the holy grail of tennis racquets.

As far as I know, Wilson followed suit with H19 and H22. Then came the prostock Steam series.

Prostock = an exclusive mold and layout that is only available for the pros. Wilson made the H22 available through Pro series but still... I guess you can understand what I mean by prostock. Let's differentiate between Prostock and SMU (Special Make Up/Customized frames).

In my opinion Yonex and Babolat don't have prostocks, they only have SMUs.

Does anyone know better who invented this niche of racquets that is in high demand on the black market and how it developed into what we have today?

LE: I couldn't make my mind for the title and was left with a typo.
Click to expand...
Why do you think Yonex doesn’t have a pro mold?
 
Alexh22

Alexh22

Professional
head did not invent it. But they are the most infamous one for never letting a sponsored player use the line they represent. They also have the most number of misrepresentation on your as of today. Djokovic uses a speed and Murray uses a radical right ? LOL.
 
A

Anni.Angel

Semi-Pro
Purestriker said:
Why do you think Yonex doesn’t have a pro mold?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, it might be my ignorance, but I never heard of one.

Usually racquetaholics eventually end up talking about them in here.

Also I never heard about a Yonex or Babolat prostock mold in places where I usually get prostocks.
 
dr325i

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
Alexh22 said:
head did not invent it. But they are the most infamous one for never letting a sponsored player use the line they represent. They also have the most number of misrepresentation on your as of today. Djokovic uses a speed and Murray uses a radical right ? LOL.
Click to expand...
And De Minaur, Sabalenka, Halep, all use Blade and Hubbi uses Percept and…
 
dr325i

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
Anni.Angel said:
I'm sorry, it might be my ignorance, but I never heard of one.

Usually racquetaholics eventually end up talking about them in here.

Also I never heard about a Yonex or Babolat prostock mold in places where I usually get prostocks.
Click to expand...
What do you think Rafa, Alcaraz, Wawrinka, Tiafoe, FAA, Kerber and many others are using?? Off the shelf retail stuff?
 
dr325i

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
Anni.Angel said:
In my mind PT57A is the epitome of prostock. Most documented, best known prostock, and maybe the most iconic prostock racquet, the holy grail of tennis racquets.

As far as I know, Wilson followed suit with H19 and H22. Then came the prostock Steam series.

Prostock = an exclusive mold and layout that is only available for the pros. Wilson made the H22 available through Pro series but still... I guess you can understand what I mean by prostock. Let's differentiate between Prostock and SMU (Special Make Up/Customized frames).

In my opinion Yonex and Babolat don't have prostocks, they only have SMUs.

Does anyone know better who invented this niche of racquets that is in high demand on the black market and how it developed into what we have today?

LE: I couldn't make my mind for the title and was left with a typo.
Click to expand...
Pro stocks existed way way before the PT57A.
Your definition of a pro stock is inaccurate. It does not have to be an exclusive mold or layup. It could be exactly the same mold and layup but removed extra (commercial) weight to allow for easy customization.

Majority of Head pro stocks used on the tour, Coaching, College are exactly that. Rarely any recent pro is using the custom mold or layup.

Wilson did not make H22 or H19 available to the public. They made Pro Labs series available to the public. They are close to the H22 and H19 but different layups and even string patterns.
 
Y

yourtennisfit

Semi-Pro
Anni.Angel said:
I'm sorry, it might be my ignorance, but I never heard of one.

Usually racquetaholics eventually end up talking about them in here.

Also I never heard about a Yonex or Babolat prostock mold in places where I usually get prostocks.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of Babolat Pro Stocks around - they just haven't named them consistently as Head does
Think of Rafa with the APD, Fognini still with an original PD and they surely get lots of customization done

On the other hand Yonex do a very strict job (at either contracting or marketing) to not name any pro stock frames
But e.g. Shapovalov uses a SV95, Stan 95D etc - so you will defintely get special rackets there as well
 
dr325i

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
yourtennisfit said:
There are plenty of Babolat Pro Stocks around - they just haven't named them consistently as Head does
Think of Rafa with the APD, Fognini still with an original PD and they surely get lots of customization done

On the other hand Yonex do a very strict job (at either contracting or marketing) to not name any pro stock frames
But e.g. Shapovalov uses a SV95, Stan 95D etc - so you will defintely get special rackets there as well
Click to expand...
Incorrect again…Yonex definitely has the Pro Stock versions of their frames and they are labeled with “P” (vs US/EU…regional markets) on the side of the throat. I’ve had a few of them and they weighted differently from the retail frames
 
dr325i

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
eric42 said:
You are correct, you were pointing out that it's not just Head. Who knows who does this the most, doesn't even matter.
Click to expand...
Exactly and NOTHING wrong with it. It is done in every sport whether golf, table tennis, Lacrosse, Baseball, NASCAR, pickleball…. These are the tools that Professional top Global athletes use. Kids on this forum are whining about it and whining about companies not releasing exactly what top professionals are using that none of us could use for more than 30 minutes or would definitely not be the most fitting and efficient spec for us…
 
Grafil Injection

Grafil Injection

Hall of Fame
Dunlop's 1960s adverts show that you could not only buy a Laver or Hoad autograph model, but you could also buy a Maxply Fort with the same specifications of either Laver or Hoad.
 
yonexRx32

yonexRx32

Professional
dr325i said:
Exactly and NOTHING wrong with it. It is done in every sport whether golf, table tennis, Lacrosse, Baseball, NASCAR, pickleball…. These are the tools that Professional top Global athletes use. Kids on this forum are whining about it and whining about companies not releasing exactly what top professionals are using that none of us could use for more than 30 minutes or would definitely not be the most fitting and efficient spec for us…
Click to expand...
There's plenty wrong. It is done with the purpose to mislead consumers. The condescending attitude that consumers don't deserve or wouldn't know what to do with what the pros use is.. just that: condescending BS.
 
dr325i

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
yonexRx32 said:
There's plenty wrong. It is done with the purpose to mislead consumers. The condescending attitude that consumers don't deserve or wouldn't know what to do with what the pros use is.. just that: condescending BS.
Click to expand...
It is not done with the purpose to mislead the consumers otherwise clear legal actions would be popping every day.

It is created to protect the players while offering new products to consumers every 2-3 years. (Basics of consumer market selling)
 
A

Anni.Angel

Semi-Pro
dr325i said:
Exactly and NOTHING wrong with it. It is done in every sport whether golf, table tennis, Lacrosse, Baseball, NASCAR, pickleball…. These are the tools that Professional top Global athletes use. Kids on this forum are whining about it and whining about companies not releasing exactly what top professionals are using that none of us could use for more than 30 minutes or would definitely not be the most fitting and efficient spec for us…
Click to expand...

yonexRx32 said:
There's plenty wrong. It is done with the purpose to mislead consumers. The condescending attitude that consumers don't deserve or wouldn't know what to do with what the pros use is.. just that: condescending BS.
Click to expand...

These two posts are both correct in a way. A racquet that is exactly what Djokovic uses? No, I would never ever dare to even think of trying that.
But I think it would help a company sell more. Some die hard fans would swear they play it with no problems.

A lightweight frame that is customizable and is the same mold I think would be nice. But I tend to agree with @dr325i The Wilson Blade Team 101L is to me the closest thing to a Steam 100 and people are not rushing to buy it.
I tried that and with a bit of customizing it came very close to my prostock 100 bats. At least my wooden hand felt them very similar.

People willing to play the exact specs of a pro are out of their minds. Also we know the Steams were no big success when they were available on the market. At least according to my knowledge.
So, the conclusion would be consumer and pros are on different tracks.

But painting racquets to make people think this is what a player is using, is a bit... unfair. I have a friend who bought a Blade because she thought Halep is playing a Blade.
 
A

Anni.Angel

Semi-Pro
dr325i said:
What do you think Rafa, Alcaraz, Wawrinka, Tiafoe, FAA, Kerber and many others are using?? Off the shelf retail stuff?
Click to expand...
I don't think they use retail.

But I don't have knowledge of something like a PT57A or H22 in Babolat or Yonex. Maybe they have something like that and I don't know.
Anyway, that was my point. I'd expect them to come with something like that, the Yonex equivalent, or version of a H22 or PT57A.
 
ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
yonexRx32 said:
There's plenty wrong. It is done with the purpose to mislead consumers. The condescending attitude that consumers don't deserve or wouldn't know what to do with what the pros use is.. just that: condescending BS.
Click to expand...
But it's also true. The overwhelming majority of us would not be able to handle what the pros use. I have an nCode 6.1 95 18x20 that I set up in the DelPo spec (leather grip, single OG, generous lead at 3/9) and I can hit with that frame for about 15 minutes. And not good hitting either. Once I blast one good forehand, I put it back in the bag.

There's nothing wrong with admitting we can't use a pro's racquet at their spec. And there's nothing wrong with companies not offering it to the general public.

Marketing is what it is. What we should all be thankful for is that we are in a true golden age of racquets right now with so many good options on the market. Why should we even care what the pros are actually using nevertheless delude ourselves into thinking we need it or could play with it.
 
A

Anni.Angel

Semi-Pro
We still don't know who was the first with a prostock. I guess it was a general phenomenon and it was not an invention but rather a need for tennis companies to fit both their pros and their average customer.
 
yonexRx32

yonexRx32

Professional
ryushen21 said:
But it's also true. The overwhelming majority of us would not be able to handle what the pros use. I have an nCode 6.1 95 18x20 that I set up in the DelPo spec (leather grip, single OG, generous lead at 3/9) and I can hit with that frame for about 15 minutes. And not good hitting either. Once I blast one good forehand, I put it back in the bag.
Click to expand...

That's says more about your skill than about the racket. So because you can't play with a heavy racket, the players should paint their rackets in colors that match the light, baby rackets you can use, to make you feel better? Seems to be the logic they use.. Because you can't imagine using something, then fraud is warranted.. Makes sense..

I play with a 360g Dunlop Max 200g pro. It has an 84 sq in head. 18x20. Do I think I could play with Djokovic's racket? I have no doubt about it. Unless the racket has a grip 5 or 6, I can use any racket.


What we should all be thankful for...
Click to expand...

Thanksgiving is over.. until next November.
 
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ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
Anni.Angel said:
We still don't know who was the first with a prostock. I guess it was a general phenomenon and it was not an invention but rather a need for tennis companies to fit both their pros and their average customer.
Click to expand...
When pros find something they like they tend to stick with it. Companies want pros, especially the ones who are winning, to stay with them so they give them the racquet they want. The companies then have to market those racquets to the public regardless of how closely they resemble what the pros are using.
 
yonexRx32

yonexRx32

Professional
Anni.Angel said:
We still don't know who was the first with a prostock. I guess it was a general phenomenon and it was not an invention but rather a need for tennis companies to fit both their pros and their average customer.
Click to expand...
Some questions don't have answers. We'll have to live with that. Who was the first to use a quill to write poetry?
 
ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
yonexRx32 said:
That's says more about your skill than about the racket. So because you can't play with a heavy racket, the players should paint their rackets in colors that match the light, baby rackets you can use, to make you feel better? Seems to be the logic they use.. Because you can't imagine using something, then fraud is warranted.. Makes sense..

I play with a 360g Dunlop Max 200g pro. It has an 84 sq in head. 18x20. Do I think I could play with Djokovic's racket? I have no doubt about it. Unless the racket has a grip 5 or 6, I can use any racket.
Click to expand...
You do you boo.
 
yonexRx32

yonexRx32

Professional
ryushen21 said:
When pros find something they like they tend to stick with it. Companies want pros, especially the ones who are winning, to stay with them so they give them the racquet they want. The companies then have to market those racquets to the public regardless of how closely they resemble what the pros are using.
Click to expand...

Therefore fraud is justified by commercial interests.. It's the same argument bank robbers use: I needed money so I got it where I could find it.
 
E

eric42

Rookie
The first pro stock was in 1889, made from a private stash of ancient growth Nova Scotia ash lumber because the pros couldn't stand that crappy northern Florida ash you'd find at the JR & Son general store. There settled.
 
ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
yonexRx32 said:
Therefore fraud is justified by commercial interests.. It's the same argument bank robbers use: I needed money so I got it where I could find it.
Click to expand...
Is this really the hill you want to die on? Maybe you should ask yourself why you are in the .0002783% of people who are triggered by this.
 
yonexRx32

yonexRx32

Professional
ryushen21 said:
Is this really the hill you want to die on? Maybe you should ask yourself why you are in the .0002783% of people who are triggered by this.
Click to expand...
Fraud, injustice, and arrogant stupidity trigger me. Until not long ago, on this very board, shills like you argued that all pros used exactly what consumers could buy. Until a lawsuit came.. Then the tune changed..
 
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Rabbit

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
Pro Stocks go back to the 60's & 70's. Ilie Nastase never played with an adidas Haillet, in his book he says he played with first a Dunlop MaxPly Fort and later a Jack Kramer painted to look the the adidas Haillet. Bjorn Borg's rackets were one-offs from Donnay. They were reinforced and heavier than the retail model. I have a couple of Snauwaerts that were specifically built to Vitas Gerualiaitis' specs. The throat is thicker and the frames are heavier than the retail version. Brian Gottfried also had a one-off made for him.
 
yonexRx32

yonexRx32

Professional
Rabbit said:
Pro Stocks go back to the 60's & 70's. Ilie Nastase never played with an adidas Haillet, in his book he says he played with first a Dunlop MaxPly Fort and later a Jack Kramer painted to look the the adidas Haillet. Bjorn Borg's rackets were one-offs from Donnay. They were reinforced and heavier than the retail model. I have a couple of Snauwaerts that were specifically built to Vitas Gerualiaitis' specs. The throat is thicker and the frames are heavier than the retail version. Brian Gottfried also had a one-off made for him.
Click to expand...
The OP is asking who was the first... I am afraid that your answer, informed as it may be, falls short of satisfactory.
 
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Grafil Injection

Grafil Injection

Hall of Fame
eric42 said:
The first pro stock was in 1889, made from a private stash of ancient growth Nova Scotia ash lumber because the pros couldn't stand that crappy northern Florida ash you'd find at the JR & Son general store. There settled.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly sure that, earlier in that decade, Messrs Renshaw were often seen down at their local Slazenger factory asking for a few non-retail customisations. Indeed, I suppose the first people to play tennis were using non-retail sticks.
 
A

Anni.Angel

Semi-Pro
OK, I got it.

Anyway I will always think first of head PT57A when it comes to prostocks and second H22, and third H19, and fourth the Steams.

But then I will remember it was since the beginning of the world.

And by the way, I strongly demand Babolat and Yonex to come with a flagship prostock mold, that would have a name and people would rave about it.
LOL! I'm just kidding.
 
E

eric42

Rookie
Don't get too hung up on pro stock molds. The mold is only a small piece of the puzzle. Vastly different playing/feeling racquets can be made using the same mold. I've played with a few. Lots of other factors go into the end result. There isn't anything magical about the PT57A mold itself, which to my knowledge has also been used for four different iterations of retail frames.
 
Vicious49

Vicious49

Legend
eric42 said:
Don't get too hung up on pro stock molds. The mold is only a small piece of the puzzle. Vastly different playing/feeling racquets can be made using the same mold. I've played with a few. Lots of other factors go into the end result. There isn't anything magical about the PT57A mold itself, which to my knowledge has also been used for four different iterations of retail frames.
Click to expand...
Which 4 frames would that be? Not being condescending, I just really don't know much about them and would like to know the models.
 
Vicious49

Vicious49

Legend
yonexRx32 said:
Fraud, injustice, and arrogant stupidity trigger me. Until not long ago, on this very board, shills like you argued that all pros used exactly what consumers could buy. Until a lawsuit came.. Then the tune changed..
Click to expand...
Glad to have you on our side fighting the injustices, hypocrisy, lies, etc that are being fed to us by our politicians and media. I'm sure you're already attending all the rallies and protests but if not I can forward you information so you don't miss out. Just need to know the city you're located in. Can't wait to see you out there!
 
ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
yonexRx32 said:
Fraud, injustice, and arrogant stupidity trigger me. Until not long ago, on this very board, shills like you argued that all pros used exactly what consumers could buy. Until a lawsuit came.. Then the tune changed..
Click to expand...
Don't shills usually get paid? I wish I was getting paid for this.
 
moon shot

moon shot

Hall of Fame
Matches and highlights should be prefaced with an adaptation of the disclaimer used on fictionalized tv shows:

“All strings, patterns, sizes, shapes, colors, and other details of racquets portrayed in this production and their similarity to retail racquets (past or present) available for purchase is not intended and should not be inferred.”
 
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Vicious49

Vicious49

Legend
moon shot said:
Matches and highlights should be prefaced with an adaptation of the disclaimer used on fictionalized tv shows:

“All strings, patterns, sizes, shapes, colors, and other details of racquets portrayed in this production and their similarity to retail racquets (past or present) available for purchase is not intended and should not be inferred.
Click to expand...
They've already changed the wording in recent years from saying the frame 'used' by so and so to the frame 'endorsed' by so and so. That's the legalese way of getting around it I guess.
 
Rabbit

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
yonexRx32 said:
The OP is asking who was the first... I am afraid that your answer, informed as it may be, falls short of satisfactory.
Click to expand...

The OP also framed his question in terms of modern rackets. My response was merely to indicate that it's been going on as long as there was professional tennis.

If that's unsatisfactory well then excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Let’s say a celebrity endorses a car. They are going to be seen driving the latest model in their ads. That doesn’t mean they own the latest model in their personal life or they drive only car models from the company paying them. I don‘t see a problem with a player using a different model than what the brand promotes them for as it is basically the same story - a celeb endorser might prefer a different older product, but the companies want them to advertise the latest products they want to sell.

Most celebrity endorsements are to attach a brand to a celebrity and not a particular product model. Most consumers associate Djokovic with Head, Federer with Wilson, Nadal with Babolat etc. and that’s how it helps the brand. Very few consumers will buy a particular model because they think a player uses it.

Federer might always wear a particular Rolex or even another brand of watch in his personal life, might drink only a particular kind of champagne from Moët etc. That doesn’t mean that when there is a Rolex or Moet ad, they will show him only with the product he prefers to use from them - he will be used to sell the new or bestselling product they want to sell at that time.
 
Y

yourtennisfit

Semi-Pro
dr325i said:
Incorrect again…Yonex definitely has the Pro Stock versions of their frames and they are labeled with “P” (vs US/EU…regional markets) on the side of the throat. I’ve had a few of them and they weighted differently from the retail frames
Click to expand...

Not really incorrect - what I was saying is that they do a better job of not communicating the pro stock names.
There might be a P next to it, but do you know a single pro stock name of Yonex or Babolat?

Head and Wilson did not do themselves any favor by naming every racket and giving these names away.
PT57, PT10, TGT291 etc etc - Wilson with their H Codes

I am sure if Yonex were to name the SV95 as some specific code and then not control this narrative, it would be a similar outcome
 
gino

gino

Legend
Anni.Angel said:
In my mind PT57A is the epitome of prostock. Most documented, best known prostock, and maybe the most iconic prostock racquet, the holy grail of tennis racquets.

As far as I know, Wilson followed suit with H19 and H22. Then came the prostock Steam series.

Prostock = an exclusive mold and layout that is only available for the pros. Wilson made the H22 available through Pro series but still... I guess you can understand what I mean by prostock. Let's differentiate between Prostock and SMU (Special Make Up/Customized frames).

In my opinion Yonex and Babolat don't have prostocks, they only have SMUs.

Does anyone know better who invented this niche of racquets that is in high demand on the black market and how it developed into what we have today?

LE: I couldn't make my mind for the title and was left with a typo.
Click to expand...

what year did they start paintjobs of the PT57A @vsbabolat @dr325i ? was that the first head paintjob?
 
Purestriker

Purestriker

Legend
Anni.Angel said:
I'm sorry, it might be my ignorance, but I never heard of one.

Usually racquetaholics eventually end up talking about them in here.

Also I never heard about a Yonex or Babolat prostock mold in places where I usually get prostocks.
Click to expand...
Look at Rybakina's Yonex, the paint job is shiny vs. the standard Vcore off the shelf. Same for Garcia's. Most people only fawn over H22's and Head's. But that doesn't mean they don't exist and that those other brands only make stock rackets.

www.prostocktennis.com

Yonex Pro Stock VCORE 98

Only one racket available!! Only one very scarce Yonex Pro Stock VCORE 98 racket available in the latest paint. Grip size is L3 (4 3/8) and racket is in excellent used condition. We also have two exactly the same brand new ones available! If you need more info or extra pictures - please...
www.prostocktennis.com www.prostocktennis.com
www.prostocktennis.com

Yonex Pro Stock RQiS 1 Tour 95 (16X18)

Only one available!! One very scarce brand new Yonex Pro Stock RQiS 1 Tour 95 racket available in the GLOSSY Blacked Out paint. Grip size is L2 (4 1/4) and string pattern is 16X18. Unstrung weight is 11.9 oz / 337 gr. Unstrung swing weight is 292. If you need more info or pictures, please...
www.prostocktennis.com www.prostocktennis.com
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
It seems like Head and Wilson internal pro stock codes have become published on this forum because of the presence of some insiders and then online bloggers talk about those models also. With other brands it just seems like the internal pro stock codes they use are not as widely known. But hard to imagine that every brand doesn’t do similar easily customizable molds/layups to accommodate their players who will want to play with different specs or racquets resembling older models.
 
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