The Eastern Grip; The Grip of GOATs

VivalaVida · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
Some ppl are very interested in technique,myself included...thought about that?:-?

Yes I did and none of you are talking about his techinque. It is the same old eastern vs semi western BS argument. Do a search and you will find 392947212024 threads on this same subject. If you are interested in his technique I recommend you go watch those boring slow mo vids of Fed hitting his forehand.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

VivalaVida said:
Yes I did and none of you are talking about his techinque. It is the same old eastern vs semi western BS argument. Do a search and you will find 392947212024 threads on this same subject. If you are interested in his technique I recommend you go watch those boring slow mo vids of Fed hitting his forehand.

I dont find it very appealing to do that, and i havent been here for so long, since February, and if things that already have been discussed around here was not allowed than i think they need to close this site.

VivalaVida · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
I dont find it very appealing to do that, and i havent been here for so long, since February, and if things that already have been discussed around here was not allowed than i think they need to close this site.

Alright man sorry about that. so what exactly did we learn here? Do you know a definite answer to what grip Federer uses? I thought Federer himself said he likes to change it up.

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
One last thing, if Federer (according to you) uses an Eastern grip, what did Sampras and Edberg use?? ULTRA-Eastern ? Something never heard of? Plz tell me...

Federer uses an eastern grip, and at times, he slides his hand down where the base knuckle of his pointer finger is in the "semi-western" position. However, the rest of his hand is still in the eastern position.

He DOES NOT use a semi western grip.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

drakulie said:
Federer uses an eastern grip, and at times, he slides his hand down where the base knuckle of his pointer finger is in the "semi-western" position. However, the rest of his hand is still in the eastern position.

He DOES NOT use a semi western grip.

That is what you see, that is not what i see. He uses Esastern on grass, on HC on clay he uses a grip that is CLOSER to semi-western than to eastern.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

VivalaVida said:
yup so what exactly did we learn here? Do you know a definite answer to what grip Federer uses? I thought Federer himself said he likes to change it up.

He did say that, but many of the experts around here disagrees with that.

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
That is what you see, that is not what i see. He uses Esastern on grass, on HC on clay he uses a grip that is CLOSER to semi-western than to eastern.

show me one photo where it clearly shows him hitting with a semi western grip (on any surface). Do you even know what a semi-western looks like???

This is a semi western:

VivalaVida · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
He did say that, but many of the experts around here disagrees with that.

It makes sense. Federer can hit his forehand so many different ways. The man is a genius with a tennis racket.

wihamilton · Aug 3, 2009

VivalaVida said:
Why is this such a big deal? Playing with an eastern grip does not make you a better or worse player.

But your grip does influence how you swing. The swing path for an eastern vs. a western is (typically) very different. Particularly for those folks tweaking their forehands, it's important to understand how grip changes affect the swing.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

drakulie said:
show me one photo where it clearly shows him hitting with a semi western grip (on any surface). Do you even know what a semi-western looks like???

This is a semi western:

I do.
Do YOU know what a double-bagle looks like?

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

Eastern (on clay)

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
I do.

No, you obviously don't.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

drakulie said:
No, you obviously don't.

Alright the pics you have showed me made me reconsider...i always thought it look liked he used someting in between Eastern and semi-western, but i guess you are right. OK.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

drakulie said:
No, you obviously don't.

But what Forehand-grip did Edberg and Sampras use then? They clearly have a lot more eastern than Fed, amazing how Fed can still get so much spin on his f-hand

[ GTR ] · Aug 3, 2009

Like someone already said, it's the swing path that determines the shot, not the grip..

I'm pretty sure someone like Laver with a continental forehand grip hitting a topspin drive, he would have more spin than say Sania Mirza with a western forehand grip, no?

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

But this does not look like eastern-grip to me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRzLgGPShUw&feature=related

wihamilton · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
But what Forehand-grip did Edberg and Sampras use then? They clearly have a lot more eastern than Fed, amazing how Fed can still get so much spin on his f-hand

[ GTR ];3759658 said:
Like someone already said, it's the swing path that determines the shot, not the grip..

I'm pretty sure someone like Laver with a continental forehand grip hitting a topspin drive, he would have more spin than say Sania Mirza with a western forehand grip, no?

The swing path determines how the ball comes off your strings. To paraphrase what I said before, the grip you chose makes some swing paths easier to produce than others. That's not to say you can't hit a windshield-wiper forehand with an eastern, like Federer. Or hit a flat ball w/an extreme semi-western. But it's easier / more natural to hit a flat ball w/an eastern and a windshield-wiper forehand w/an extreme semi-western. The reason Federer's forehand is so awesome is because he can create pretty much any swing path he wants w/an eastern.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Aug 3, 2009

wihamilton said:
The swing path determines how the ball comes off your strings. To paraphrase what I said before, the grip you chose makes some swing paths easier to produce than others. That's not to say you can't hit a windshield-wiper forehand with an eastern, like Federer. Or hit a flat ball w/an extreme semi-western. But it's easier / more natural to hit a flat ball w/an eastern and a windshield-wiper forehand w/an extreme semi-western. The reason Federer's forehand is so awesome is because he can create pretty much any swing path he wants w/an eastern.

Yes, and therefore it may actually look from time to time as if he is using a semi-western. By the way, your Utube-clips are great!

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
But what Forehand-grip did Edberg and Sampras use then?

Eastern.

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
They clearly have a lot more eastern than Fed, amazing how Fed can still get so much spin on his f-hand

As someone else pointed out, it's the swing path that determines how the ball comes off the strings of the racquet>> not the grip utilized.

Federer hits with an extended arm, which enables him to drop the racquet head below the incoming ball much easier than when hitting with a "double bend". Doing this alllows him to get much more "torque", which results in the crazy spin he achieves when he whips the racquet thru the contact zone.

dincuss · Aug 3, 2009

drakulie said:
As someone else pointed out, it's the swing path that determines how the ball comes off the strings of the racquet>> not the grip utilized.

Federer hits with an extended arm, which enables him to drop the racquet head below the incoming ball much easier than when hitting with a "double bend". Doing this alllows him to get much more "torque", which results in the crazy spin he achieves when he whips the racquet thru the contact zone.

BTW, whats the advantage of using a double bend to a straight arm, or vise versa?

Or is it all just preference?

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

^^Personal preference.

Using a double bend will give one more stability.

Using a straight arm will give one more reach, and thus>> more power.

edberg505 · Aug 3, 2009

drakulie said:
Eastern.

As someone else pointed out, it's the swing path that determines how the ball comes off the strings of the racquet>> not the grip utilized.

Federer hits with an extended arm, which enables him to drop the racquet head below the incoming ball much easier than when hitting with a "double bend". Doing this alllows him to get much more "torque", which results in the crazy spin he achieves when he whips the racquet thru the contact zone.

Actually, Edberg used a continental grip for every single one of his strokes. That's why his forehand wasn't as good as the other top players. I can actually hit with a continental but it's really, really hard to do.

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

edberg505 said:
Actually, Edberg used a continental grip for every single one of his strokes. That's why his forehand wasn't as good as the other top players. I can actually hit with a continental but it's really, really hard to do.

Thanks, Edberg. I thought he hit with a continental, but wasn't so sure.

Hope all is well with you, and you are still cracking that beautiful BH of yours.

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
Federer uses semi-western most of the time, sometimes he uses eastern depending on what shotss he has to deal with

So when they took THOUSANDS of photos of Federer hitting forehands and in ALL of them except one (that one being too obscured to be conclusive), he was using an Eastern forehand grip, somehow that means that he uses a Semi-Western grip "most of the time"?

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
One last thing, if Federer (according to you) uses an Eastern grip, what did Sampras and Edberg use?? ULTRA-Eastern ? Something never heard of? Plz tell me...

Sampras also used an Eastern grip. Why can't two players both use an Eastern grip?

They just had different techniques and mechanics but their grips were both Eastern.

Edberg used a Continental grip.

Deleted member 25923 · Aug 3, 2009

BreakPoint said:
Then you're either blind or don't know the difference between an Eastern grip and a Semi-Western Grip.

This is EASTERN:

This is SEMI-WESTERN:

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXcsblS3Jl4

It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Federer uses an Eastern Grip. Get your terminology straight.

Actually, no, it's not a matter of being blind or not. Federer uses a smaller grip so his hand looks like it's wrapping around at the semiwestern point when he's really using an Eastern grip.

Also, it looks semi-western because of the way he swings.

Roddick uses extreme semi-western/western.

Deleted member 25923 · Aug 3, 2009

Another question: Agassi's grip was strange, if it's how John Yandell says it is. He said base knuckle on bevel four, heel pad on bevel three. When I do this, I have to hold it in a hammer type grip. When I use a trigger type grip, I can't seem to do that (my heel pad always moves over to bevel 4).

Also, what grip is Marat safin and does he do both heel pad and knuckle on bevel 4, or one on 3 and the other on 4?

Noveson · Aug 3, 2009

TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
Yes, and therefore it may actually look from time to time as if he is using a semi-western. By the way, your Utube-clips are great!

Just leave Breakpoint alone. He will argue for anything that makes his dying game style seem better.

pmerk34 · Aug 3, 2009

Noveson said:
Just leave Breakpoint alone. He will argue for anything that makes his dying game style seem better.

He's a good guy on these boards.

Noveson · Aug 3, 2009

pmerk34 said:
He's a good guy on these boards.

Yeah he knows a lot about tennis and makes for some interesting discussions. But arguing with him about anything related to federer(small headsize, eastern grip, tiny t-shirts, one handed backhand, serve and volley) is a lost cause. The argument wont end until you tire of the ridiculous evidence he digs up from who knows where.

NamRanger · Aug 3, 2009

Yandell's research conflicts with Will's analysis so it is not all cut and dry. However, ultimately, Federer does use a conservative grip and uses all sorts of swing paths. That is something everyone agrees on. In the end, it doesn't really apply to anyone here, because you are not and never will be close to the player that Federer is.

Noveson · Aug 3, 2009

NamRanger said:
Yandell's research conflicts with Will's analysis so it is not all cut and dry. However, ultimately, Federer does use a conservative grip and uses all sorts of swing paths. That is something everyone agrees on. In the end, it doesn't really apply to anyone here, because you are not and never will be close to the player that Federer is.

Very true.

What did Yandell come up with?

pmerk34 · Aug 3, 2009

Noveson said:
Yeah he knows a lot about tennis and makes for some interesting discussions. But arguing with him about anything related to federer(small headsize, eastern grip, tiny t-shirts, one handed backhand, serve and volley) is a lost cause. The argument wont end until you tire of the ridiculous evidence he digs up from who knows where.

I play with one hander and rush the net. It's a viable style at the non pro level. At the pro level it's a joke to do that. The pro game has moved beyond it.

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

Mansewerz said:
Actually, no, it's not a matter of being blind or not. Federer uses a smaller grip so his hand looks like it's wrapping around at the semiwestern point when he's really using an Eastern grip.

Also, it looks semi-western because of the way he swings.

But in that pic I posted, it CLEARLY shows that Federer is using an Eastern grip regardless of how small his handle is.

Grips have nothing to do with the swings. You can use any grip and swing any way you want to, so you can't say his grip looks a certain way because of the way he swings. You only have to look at his hand on the handle to determine his grip. His swing is irrelevant.

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

Noveson said:
Just leave Breakpoint alone. He will argue for anything that makes his dying game style seem better.

You ought to let Federer know that it's impossible for him win a single Grand Slam with that "dying game style" of his, let alone win 15 of them and on every surface, because he obviously didn't get the memo.

Cesc Fabregas · Aug 3, 2009

BreakPoint said:
You ought to let Federer know that it's impossible for him win a single Grand Slam with that "dying game style" of his, let alone win 15 of them and on every surface, because he obviously didn't get the memo.

Federer doesn't have a 'classical game' that you like, you are a fan of s&v and Federer on the otherhand is a baseliner who uses alot of spin.

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

Cesc Fabregas said:
Federer doesn't have a 'classical game' that you like, you are a fan of s&v and Federer on the otherhand is a baseliner who uses alot of spin.

Yes, I am a fan of S&V because it's so rare to see today. I hated S&V in the 90's because it was so common and so incredibly boring. I rarely watched Sampras matches in the 90's unless it was a final. I am a bigger fan of Federer's style and my own style of play is closer to that of Federer than of Sampras. And Federer is an all-court player, not a baseliner. He looks to attack short balls and follows them up to the net.

Cesc Fabregas · Aug 3, 2009

BreakPoint said:
Yes, I am a fan of S&V because it's so rare to see today. I hated S&V in the 90's because it was so common and so incredibly boring. I rarely watched Sampras matches in the 90's unless it was a final. I am a bigger fan of Federer's style and my own style of play is closer to that of Federer than of Sampras. And Federer is an all-court player, not a baseliner. He looks to attack short balls and follows them up to the net.

Federer is a baseliner, all his strengths point to that forehand, movement, footwork and speed from the back of the court.

Zeppy · Aug 3, 2009

Cesc Fabregas said:
Federer is a baseliner, all his strengths point to that forehand, movement, footwork and speed from the back of the court.

Yes, but I don't think he's a pure baseliner. He has served and volleyed quite a few times and he did start off as one.

VivalaVida · Aug 3, 2009

Cesc Fabregas said:
Federer is a baseliner, all his strengths point to that forehand, movement, footwork and speed from the back of the court.

Federer is solid at the net and isnt afraid to come in either. That is why I think he is an all court player

Deleted member 25923 · Aug 3, 2009

BreakPoint said:
But in that pic I posted, it CLEARLY shows that Federer is using an Eastern grip regardless of how small his handle is.

Grips have nothing to do with the swings. You can use any grip and swing any way you want to, so you can't say his grip looks a certain way because of the way he swings. You only have to look at his hand on the handle to determine his grip. His swing is irrelevant.

You can't just claim clearly with a picture like that. Maybe if you had a picture of his hand right on top of the racquet, then yes you can claim clearly. But not with a picture where his hand is behind the frame.

He uses an Eastern grip. But you can't tell from that picture. If you could, then we wouldn't be having this debate!

フェデラー · Aug 3, 2009

VivalaVida said:
Federer is solid at the net and isnt afraid to come in either. That is why I think he is an all court player

Federer is by far the best volleyer on tour. His doubles record backs this up. To be able to beat the Bryan Brothers at the only game they know, is unheard of with a random doubles pairing. Fed came into net on almost every point where he had the chance, and he won almost all the time.

DarthMaul · Aug 3, 2009

Cesc Fabregas said:
Federer is a baseliner, all his strengths point to that forehand, movement, footwork and speed from the back of the court.

He's an all-rounder. He can switch from S&V to baseline at any time, depending on the situation.

_maxi · Aug 3, 2009

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXcsblS3Jl4

You can't say that he uses a SemiWestern forehand grip and show no proove. That picture posted above is so unclear that is not a proove of anything.

You have to show tons of pics of Federer using a SW forehand for we to believe that. Otherwise, it's just words, and zero evidence.

I think that there's no doubt that he uses eastern on fast courts, now you say that on slow courts he uses SW. Look at this photos, all from clay:

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2009+French+Open+Day+Eleven+-NSLopCqYGWl.jpg
http://images2.sina.com/english/sports/2009/0530/U102P200T1D244792F10DT20090530201557.jpg
http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2009+French+Open+Day+Eleven+11atKoJB8A-l.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0606/ten_a_federer_580.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2009/6/1/1243887600237/Roger-Federer-002.jpg
http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/480/385/33394114-roger-federer.jpg
http://www2.tennisserver.com/images/photofeed/2008/french-open/080529/Federer-Montanes/IMG_9567.jpg

What is that?

drakulie · Aug 3, 2009

I didn't want to post these photos yet because I am working with someone to create a website with some high speed photos and video of pros I took this year at the sony ericsson miami, and they aren't even close to being ready. The two following photos are "badly" cropped, and re-sized, so sorry for the quality and that they aren't too clear. (I'm not very good at this stuff). These two photos are of different sequences of Fed hitting FH's taken at 60 frames per second. One could clearly see his base knuckle is not in the eastern position (it has slid over more to a semi-western). I have more of these photos, but didn't feel like going thru them all, so posted the first two I found.

Here is a video shot at 300 frames per second:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNia4A9BTM&feature=channel_page

フェデラー · Aug 3, 2009

WOW amazing Drakulie. Im envious of his wristband, which matches that 100$ headband I keep seeing on ****. I subscribed to you on youtube ^_^

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

Mansewerz said:
You can't just claim clearly with a picture like that. Maybe if you had a picture of his hand right on top of the racquet, then yes you can claim clearly. But not with a picture where his hand is behind the frame.

He uses an Eastern grip. But you can't tell from that picture. If you could, then we wouldn't be having this debate!

Are you serious?

The fact that his hand is BEHIND the frame is what makes it an Eastern grip! Are you sure you understand what an Eastern grip is????

Yes, you can tell that he's using an Eastern grip from that pic I posted beyond ANY shadow of the doubt. The only people who can't tell are people who don't know what an Eastern grip is. That's the only reason we're even having this debate. People don't know their grip terminology.

BreakPoint · Aug 3, 2009

Cesc Fabregas said:
Federer is a baseliner, all his strengths point to that forehand, movement, footwork and speed from the back of the court.

Federer hits approach shots and comes into the net to hit volleys. That makes him an all-court player by definition.

Sharapova is a baseliner.

NamRanger · Aug 3, 2009

Noveson said:
Very true.

What did Yandell come up with?

Yandell came to the conclusion that Federer uses an extreme eastern forehand grip. It most definitely is not the same eastern grip that Sampras and Henman use (IMO at least, although others disagree).

Although Will's analysis is well done, it's something that I disagree with personally. However, the difference is so minuscule to an amateur tennis player that it truly does not matter.

NamRanger · Aug 3, 2009

TennisandMusic said:
Roddick has gone much more western in recent years. When he was knocking the cover off the ball in 03 he was using more of a semi. Gilbert tried to get him to change it from his western, but he's gone back.

If you don't think you can drive the ball with a semi or a western grip, why don't we have a little hit sometime, like I've asked many times. We'll see who drives the ball more. ;-)

Untrue statement. Roddick has always had a problem with his forehand. As a junior he did not hit the ball cleanly off the forehand. This has been well documented when Roddick worked with Rick Macci. Rick Macci did indeed clean up his forehand and early on in his career he showed that work.

However, when he loss his confidence and didn't know what game to play, he reverted back to his natural instincts.

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