An all-court player actually uses the whole court. From 2006-2007 Federer was not an allcourt player in the slightest.
The Eastern Grip; The Grip of GOATs
- Thread starter フェデラー
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An all-court player actually uses the whole court. From 2006-2007 Federer was not an allcourt player in the slightest.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Am I alone in finding it kind of funny that when talking about possibly the greatest player to ever play the game, the thing that stands out to you, and that you are envious of is his wristband?
Jolly: "Wow. . . Fed didn't lose a single point on serve in that first set against Haas. That is amazing."
フェデラー: "Forget all that crap, did you see his bandana?"
J
haha, but there's no point in being awed by his skill because we've seen it time and time again for the past few years. new gear is something we can relate to though
D
Deleted member 25923
Guest
My mistake. It does appear that he is using an Eastern grip from that picture. The mirror helped visualize it more.
Though roddick is not using a semiwestern grip there (at least not a regular one. If he is, it's extreme and damn near western, possibly even western).
cadfael_tex
Professional
McEnroe began with Wilson (JK Pro Staff) before switching to Dunlop in 81 or 82 IIRC.
Borg - Bancroft and Donnay
Lendle - Kneissl, Addidas, Mizuno - all the same racquet except a little larger head at the very tail end of his career - can't remember what he started with.
I associate Laver with Dunlop (Maxply Forte) but think he played another brand toward the end.
Don't think you have to play wilson to be Goat.
BTW, Graf IIRC won most of her GS titles with Dunlop before switching to Wilson late in her carrer.
Navritolova (if we're include the ladies) has loads of slams - bancroft early in career but think all of them were won with Yonex.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I think Roddick/Nadal use a grip similar to mine (Or vice versa if you prefer lol)
Kind of a hybrid semi/full western where the index knuckle is ion the ridge between the semi and full western bevels.
Disclaimer: I have won 0 slams with this grip.
Disclaimer #2: I haven't won anything noteworthy, nor gotten any oversized checks with this grip.
J
dincuss
Hall of Fame
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
How was he "not an all-court player in the slightest"? He has always looked to attack short balls and come into the net to finish off the point with a volley. That makes him an all-court player.
A pure baseliner like Sharapova hits a short ball and then retreats back to the baseline.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
No problem.
They should put that pic of Federer in the dictionary under "Eastern Forehand Grip" because it's a perfect example and very clear-cut.
Now as far as Roddick, his grip is nowhere near as extreme as a Full Western Grip, which Mathieu is using here. Compare the difference.
World Beater
Hall of Fame
u sure about that?
an all court player doesnt need to play 50% at net, 50% at the baseline.
federer played aggressive from the baseline and finished off pts at net. you dont need to chip and charge every second serve to be considered all court.
if we extend the definition further, federer in fact uses more of the court than most players - he uses the front part of the court on the opponent side better than anyone else. short chip slices to draw people in.
edberg505
Legend
Hey drak, yeah I'm okay I suppose. I really haven't been playing too much at all. I joined a 9.0 mixed doubles league but I've only played 2 matches. Before that I hadn't hit since Aug. But oddly enough my backhand is still clicking. LOL. It's the forehand I tend to have problems with when returning from layoff. Timing is everything. Have you been playing much? Hit with Puerta again? I'm still freaking jealous of that. I'm going to the US Open next month so maybe I'll take my racquet and I'll get lucky.
Xuxa Kuerten
Rookie
For those who may be interested in extreme grips:
edberg505
Legend
For those who may be interested in extreme grips:
Ah, the infamous "Hawaiian grip".
Xuxa Kuerten
Rookie
There you go. It's easier to hold a racket with a penholder grip than using the hawaiian one.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
Very true. There's "flat" meaning no spin, but, more commonly, it just means low net clearance, lack of arch in the shot and generally hit hard. This doesn't mean the ball can't have some, even a lot, of spin on it.
leonidas1982
Hall of Fame
precisely, Sampras and Agassi got some fairly high RPMs on their forehands; however their trajectory/net-clearance was fairly low.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Hey drak, yeah I'm okay I suppose. I really haven't been playing too much at all. I joined a 9.0 mixed doubles league but I've only played 2 matches. Before that I hadn't hit since Aug. But oddly enough my backhand is still clicking. LOL. It's the forehand I tend to have problems with when returning from layoff. Timing is everything. Have you been playing much? Hit with Puerta again? I'm still freaking jealous of that. I'm going to the US Open next month so maybe I'll take my racquet and I'll get lucky.
Shoot me an e-mail when you hit town if you are looking for a hit.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
ROFL. 10 chars.
Dark Victory
Rookie
Agreed.
Fed was closest to being all-court in 2005 (his best season imo). This was also the last year where his net game showed us just how good it could have been (top S&V'er level) had Roger seriously honed it.
scraps234
Hall of Fame
lol..... thats funny i just called him and he told me he used semi western.... mystery is back on! lol jk =p
Then Roddick from 2006-2009 is an allcourt player then is he not? He comes to net more than Federer, and attacks short balls, etc.
Federer from 2006-2007 did not attack the net often. He stayed on the baseline and played from there because he was the best baseliner in the world at the time.
edberg505
Legend
Awesome, I knew there would be someone in the NY area I could hit with. I'll email you when I figure out where we are staying after we're done with the wedding in NJ. By the way, any suggestions for a good hotel?
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Yes, he is. Thanks to his coach Jimmy Connors, who was an all-court player himself.
Have you EVER seen Federer hit a short ball around the service line and then retreat back to the baseline during ANY time period? He hits aggressive groundies to try and get a short ball that he can attack and finish off at the net.
I rarely see any male players do this. It's a rite of passage on the WTA tour though.
textbook strokes
Semi-Pro
This is a very interesting theory actually, 'cause in order to do that, the pointer come closer to the rest of the fingers. This is something like a "hummer" grip (in the sense that you hold a hummer with your fingers all close together) that enables the wrist to move more freely.
That would explain the tremendous movement of Fed's wrist on inmpact. It's also something very hard to do and certainly not advisable to do for any other player.
Just a thougth.
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I didn't want to post these photos yet because I am working with someone to create a website with some high speed photos and video of pros I took this year at the sony ericsson miami, and they aren't even close to being ready. The two following photos are "badly" cropped, and re-sized, so sorry for the quality and that they aren't too clear. (I'm not very good at this stuff). These two photos are of different sequences of Fed hitting FH's taken at 60 frames per second. One could clearly see his base knuckle is not in the eastern position (it has slid over more to a semi-western). I have more of these photos, but didn't feel like going thru them all, so posted the first two I found.
Here is a video shot at 300 frames per second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNia4A9BTM&feature=channel_page
Where are you on this Breakpoint?
Then Nadal is an all court player also. By definition
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
You need to see his grip at the point of contact, not afterwards as Federer turns and pronates his hand and wrist after contact during the follow-through. Besides, most players who use Eastern grips the majority of time also use other grips on occasion depending on the situation. For example, I'll use a semi-western grip when I'm trying to hit a heavy topspin dipping passing shot when my opponent is at net to make him volley up, and I'll use a continental grip when I hit forehand slices, but since I use an Eastern grip for most normal groundstroke rallies, I am an Eastern grip player.
The difference is that Nadal only comes in when he's forced to come in. Federer actually looks to come in on purpose and works rallies to get that opportunity to come in.Then Nadal is an all court player also. By definition
I disagree with this. Nadal approaches aggressively with his forehand quite often. I've watched him finish of hundreds of points with drop volleys.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
People who aren't that comfortable at the net tend to hit drop volleys.
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
Agassi did not use a eastern, and could crush the ball flat with tremendous pace, no?
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
Wrong,
How is it wrong? Fed does use eastern, just not all the time. He does however use it a lot so I don't think classifying him as an eastern grip player is false.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
edberg505
Legend
Where in NJ?
I usually just use hotwire.
But I am cheap like that
J
Morristown, NJ
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
You know for sure he uses different forehand grips depending on the shot? I would say that's unlikely.
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
Theres bugs in 75% of the hotels in NYC:shock:
You mean the differences in his grip is caused by an unconscious change? Isn't that more unlikely?
madmanfool
Semi-Pro
Federer is a very good volleyer, no doubt. But the best? Not for me. Most doubles specialists have better volleys: Bryan brother's, Leander Paes,.. He could be the best and probably would be given his talent if he practiced it as much as those doubles specialists, but he doesn't.
Singles players are better players than doubles players. They have better serves and returns. So if you put a "random doubles pairing" together and they have enough incentive to win they can do very well. The main advantage that doubles specialists have, is that they have mastered the tactical side.
In 2004 Malisse and Rochus got together in RG. They played a lot of doubles at the juniors, but that was about it. They got eliminated in singles at some points so they shifted their focus to doubles. They won it, beating doubles specialists pairing like Bjorkman/Woodbrigde, Bhupathi/Mirnyi and Llodra/Santoro.
Take the 2004 olympics as well. Olympics are a good example because they will be motivated to do well in doubles. Lots of high single ranked players who made a team in doubles did very well. Gonzalez/Massu defeated Bryan/Bryan, Ancic/Ljubicic defeated Llodra/Santoro and Kiefer/Schuettler defeated Bhupati/Paes.
Dick Norman is an interesting case as well. 38 years old or something and for years he struggled to make it in the top 100. He even retired at some point. But much to his surprice Wesley Moodie asked him to form a doubles pairing. He decided to make a comeback in doubles at has now reached the final in RG and the semi-final in Wimbledon this year. He was an average singles players who with the guidance of an experienced doubles players very quickly became top in doubles.
Now do all these players have out of this world volleys? No. Some have very good volleys like Kiefer, Ancics,.. but I don't believe there lies the difference. Federer has very good volleys, but to say he is the best volleyer on tour because he beat Bryan/Bryan with another top 10 player is pushing it a bit in my opinion.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Did you even read the rest of this thread? Federer pronates his wrist and hand after contact with the ball.
Here he is at the point of contact:
Eastern? YES!!!!!!!!!
Did you not watch this video that's been linked tons of times?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXcsblS3Jl4
It proves Federer uses an Eastern grip beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
IMO, Agassi's grip was more Eastern than semi-western, and no, Agassi's ball was not flat.
OMG someone thinks Agassi hit flat?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
OK, Traffic gods willing, that is about 1 hour away from me.
Just shoot me an e-mail and we can try to get together for a hit.
J
Agassi is classified as the standard SW grip that most amateur players should use. And indeed, Agassi does hit flat. Only Tim Henman and Peter Korda hit flatter than he did according to Yandell's research.
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