Bad News for McEnroe - Bill Scanlon
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Borgforever
Hall of Fame
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
I played with both back in the day and always thought it was the other way around. Scanlon says that they were the same, I'd probably think he'd know more since he was a sponsored player. Maybe they were made the same for him...
So you have no frame of reference, Donny. You're like a child who wanders in in the middle of a movie and wants to know--
As far as the equipment is concerned, Bill started playing in a much simpler time. In 1967 at K-zoo, all the layers played with either a Wilson Kramer Auto, Tony Trabert Auto, Kraemer Pro Staff, Dunlop Fort, Spalding Gonzalez Auto, or World Open. Maybe 1 or 2 with a Bancroft Players Special. That was it. When the switch to metal and graphite came, the number of manufacturers went nuts, companies came and went by the month, tennis was exploding, the money was coming in, and everyone wanted a part of it. As for him not liking McEnroe, no big deal, how many of us have gone back to our 40th class reunion, and the guy was a jerk in 1969, is just a fatter jerk in 2009. Things don't always get better.
slice bh compliment
G.O.A.T.
Good points, all. And now McEnroe is a skinnier jerk. And a father of 6!
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
I played with both, and I would say the Kramer Pro Staff was stiffer. I owned a Kramer PS for maybe 10 years before switching to a PS 6.0 85 in the mid-later 80s.
I almost got to play Bill Scanlon one time. There was a popular annual open tournament at a club called Wimbledon Racquet Club in Spring TX, north of Houston. One year, I believe back in 1988, Bill Scanlon enters the tournament. The prize money was very small, and no tour points, so we couldn't figure out what a player of his caliber was doing there. I won 2 rounds and lost in the quarters, and would have played Scanlon in the semis had I won. I really wish I could have won that match so I could have the experience of playing Scanlon. He won the tournament very easily. His best competition was against a guy named Clark Diehl, who was the head pro at the Wimbledon club at the time. The most amazing thing to me was Scanlon's numerous running passing shots against Diehl. We used to joke that Scanlon only played that tournament so he could say that he has won "Wimbledon". Years later, Sammy Giammalva Jr. purchased the club, and renamed it to the Giammalva Tennis Club. And thats the rest of the story ;-)
Retail K90 with some lead. People need to get over it.
Wow. See what I mean?
slice bh compliment
G.O.A.T.
Retail K90 avec lead? People need to get over it? You callous, macho bastidges.
I see what you're trying to do, but, I've seen Roger's frame close up and.....
the handle is 2 mm shorter
and the PWS area is 1 mm shorter
and the shaft is beveled differently
and the buttcap looks less octagonal
and the bumper is probably teflon
and the layup is TOTALLY a different ballgame
and the SW is tweaked
and the nanoparticles have undergone metaphysical metamorphosis
and Tony Roche's acupuncture and herbalist in China has treated the fibers from the inside out
and, well, it's just a different racquet
and if we could only get our hands on it, we'd all be good!
I see what you're trying to do, but, I've seen Roger's frame close up and.....
the handle is 2 mm shorter
and the PWS area is 1 mm shorter
and the shaft is beveled differently
and the buttcap looks less octagonal
and the bumper is probably teflon
and the layup is TOTALLY a different ballgame
and the SW is tweaked
and the nanoparticles have undergone metaphysical metamorphosis
and Tony Roche's acupuncture and herbalist in China has treated the fibers from the inside out
and, well, it's just a different racquet
and if we could only get our hands on it, we'd all be good!
I know and it's a joke. The best player on earth uses a stock K90 with some lead. Not some mysterious paint job of a 18 year old head Prestige.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Where's the lead?
Under the bumper I believe.
No, the guys who customize his racquet say that they just sneak a little bit under the bumper.
Brettolius
Professional
For real. Not like even most tennis fans would know who the hell Bill Scanlon is. Probably know Leif Sheiras more so than Scanlon, due to his commentating...
Brettolius
Professional
Perhaps to get the real story from Scanlon I'll roll out at 15 m.p.h., double back, and beat it out of him!!!
Yeah, and Tony Giammalva played for Trinity the same time as Scanlon (it was a great team). Traitor to a Rice family. That irritated me too.
Don't Let It Bounce
Hall of Fame
Brettolius, this is not 'Nam. This is Talk Tennis. There are rules.
When did this tournament begin? I believe that I played in it, back in the 70's, and it was won by Mike Estep. I also think that a player named Kettelson was in it. As I recall, it had a fairly good draw, but what motivated many of us was to win Wimbledon.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
slice bh compliment
G.O.A.T.
I remember watching in disbelief as mac dropped the two TBs.
Standard headed Wood and a lot of skill beating the top seed using a new max200g!
Figured it would go five when mac took the third set.
Huge props to Scanlon on a signature win. Intense, smart player. Literally wrote a book on the strength of this match.
Great guy, btw, if you ever meet him. Lives in socal, still? Still a fit, strong player. More of a laid back guy now.
Standard headed Wood and a lot of skill beating the top seed using a new max200g!
Figured it would go five when mac took the third set.
Huge props to Scanlon on a signature win. Intense, smart player. Literally wrote a book on the strength of this match.
Great guy, btw, if you ever meet him. Lives in socal, still? Still a fit, strong player. More of a laid back guy now.
Frankc
Professional
Thanks - great thread... Remember him well... great talent and serve. Enjoyed the book some time ago, but will be sure and revisit.
Loved the Pro Staff - main frame through good years. Always wondered, since I read his book, about the transition to graphite and other players who were, perhaps, left behind. No doubt that Mac wielded the 200G with golden precision, but I am always in awe of prime Pro Staff Mac and the power, touch and precision that he pulled from a wood frame...
Loved the Pro Staff - main frame through good years. Always wondered, since I read his book, about the transition to graphite and other players who were, perhaps, left behind. No doubt that Mac wielded the 200G with golden precision, but I am always in awe of prime Pro Staff Mac and the power, touch and precision that he pulled from a wood frame...
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
I remember watching (on TV) the match against Fleming and I liked Scanlon's game and followed his career after that match. Plus he hit with a Kramer Autograph, which I did at the time.
I remember JMac was quite a sore loser after Scanlon beat him at USO. Scanlon had beautiful late 70s style strokes.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Mac and Scanlon had HATE vs HATE relationship. Bill beat Mac in US open one year and MAc basically said bill wasn't good enough to clean his shoes, nevermind be on the same court with him................LOL........ Talk about a sore loser..............I read this book over the Christmas holdiays. I really liked this one. It went through the whole of Scanlon's career. Scanlon pulled no punches when giving his opinioin on other players, especially his nemisis John McEnroe.
He has an entire chapter devoted to equipment, both new and old. The most interesting factoid that I garnered from this is that a wood racket usually lasted the pros about 3 to 5 weeks.
Also of great interest to me was Scanlon's take on the frame he used. He used the Jack Kramer Auto, ProStaff, and one other variant. He said that all 3 frames were exactly the same and that he thought he couldn't pass a blindfold test with them. He said he played with all 3 during his career. I found this of particular interest in light of the things that are posted on these boards. I posted long ago that we "overthink" our equipment at our level and it appears that I may have actually gotten one thing right.
Scanlon explains the WCT versus the ITF battle in great and interesting detail. He goes through the war that raged between the powers that ran tennis and how the ATP finally became a player in the running of the sport. He doesn't arrive at this conclusion, but I find it very interesting that once the ATP gained control of the sport and began to run it "right", interest from the fans began to wane and the tennis boom began to taper off.
Scanlon talks about the driving force behind the tour, which is money. It's the same story for pros. It ain't about the money IF you have the money. Scanlon talks about the decisions he had to make regarding tournament play, how he was basically at the whim of his agents.
I would recommend this book to anyone who played tennis in the 70s or has an interest in the dawn of the professional game as we know it today. This book was a really good read.
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
This is a great thread. This forum used to be great.
BringBackWood
Professional
Yeah Bill played great in that 83 US open match. His volleying was solid, but really what got him through was his clutch 2nd serves, and his very smart returns. He wouldn't try and smack it, but he took it early and just chipped it in real awkward spots. True Mcenroe wasn't at his best, but he didn't play too bad. Possibly their 82 dallas match was even better
Scanlon's game was quite deceptive. He didn't have any spectacular weapon, & in the end his game wasn't overall good enough to make much of an impact, but he clearly very talented. I have the feeling his game was more tuned to fit the style of the 70's. It was very classical; the object was always to get to the net if his opponent wasn't there. He achieved the first golden set I believe, and won a set against Pecci at Wimbledon losing only 2 points as a 2nd bagel set.
Scanlon's game was quite deceptive. He didn't have any spectacular weapon, & in the end his game wasn't overall good enough to make much of an impact, but he clearly very talented. I have the feeling his game was more tuned to fit the style of the 70's. It was very classical; the object was always to get to the net if his opponent wasn't there. He achieved the first golden set I believe, and won a set against Pecci at Wimbledon losing only 2 points as a 2nd bagel set.
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
I didn’t really know him before I found this thread but I’ve just watched highlights to his 83 McEnroe us open match and a match against Borg in the 1983 and I’m really impressed. Every stroke looked orthodox and solid. He looks like an all court player really who loves getting into net. Mentally he looked great in the McEnroe match. Took none of McEnroes **** and made sure the umpire knew McEnroe was cheating.
Also anyone of doesn’t like McEnroe and Connors has got to be a good judge because they were unbearable at times. McEnroe needed 12 rounds with Larry Holmes so Larry could jab some decent behaviour into the arrogant jackass
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
I am very surprised someone would state that the JK Auto and the JK Pro Staff were the same.
I tried a JK Auto back in the latter 70s at the recommendation of my local pro. (He and many others played with it.)
For me is was too flexy in the throat and too light.
Then I tried a JK Pro Staff, which seemed stiffer in the throat and heavier. In other words, for me just right.
(At the time, I really wanted a Head Vilas with its cool split throat, but I couldn't afford it as it cost more than $10 more than the Wilsons.) I also tried a Dunlop Maxply which seemed a bit clunky (board-like and too stiff), very heavy, but a bit flexy in the upper hoop.
To repeat, I didn't think the two Wilson Jack Kramers played that much alike.
I am inclined to agree that we "overthink" or better yet "over-feel" equipment differences.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I have a few Jack Kramer Autos and Jack Kramer Pro Staffs.
They seem to vary in weight.
My heaviest JK Auto is around 400 grams.
My heaviest JK Pro Staff is around 390 gram (strung weight) and the lightest is around 360 grams (strung weight).
Same with the Wilson Advantage. Have two. One is around 360 grams and the other is around 390 grams.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Can you put one of each side by side, take a picture, and post it?
(I seem to recall they had different throats and shafts.?)
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Okay. I’ll take some photos.
Some are in storage but I have some with me I can take photos of.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Strung weights without overgrip.
From LEFT to RIGHT:
14.0 oz / 397g : Wilson Advantage (Medium L5) : 396g / 14.0 oz
13.1 oz / 371g : Wilson Jack Kramer Midsize
13.3 oz / 378g : Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph (Medium L5)
12.7 oz / 360g : Wilson Jack Kramer Prostaff (Light)
13.6 oz / 385g : Wilson Jack Kramer Prostaff (Light L5)
From LEFT to RIGHT:
14.0 oz / 397g : Wilson Advantage (Medium L5) : 396g / 14.0 oz
13.1 oz / 371g : Wilson Jack Kramer Midsize
13.3 oz / 378g : Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph (Medium L5)
12.7 oz / 360g : Wilson Jack Kramer Prostaff (Light)
13.6 oz / 385g : Wilson Jack Kramer Prostaff (Light L5)
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Within the Jack Kramer Pro Staff line, there appears to be some variation in the type of wood used and also shape of the throat and racquet.
The lighter one I have (360g strung weight) has a rounder throat/shaft area.
The heavier one (385g strung weight) has more squared/sharper edges in the throat/shaft area.
I have only tried hitting with the two prostaffs. Have not tried hitting with the other racquets yet.
The lighter one I have (360g strung weight) has a rounder throat/shaft area.
The heavier one (385g strung weight) has more squared/sharper edges in the throat/shaft area.
I have only tried hitting with the two prostaffs. Have not tried hitting with the other racquets yet.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Thanks. Saw a JK PS at a yard sale this past weekend. Kinda tempted but it would have been for nostalgia only.
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
And I really hate to add this, but Chris Evert reportedly said her Auto was a JK Autograph as well!
No kidding on that either.Looking at the photos above, it looks like the flake on the shaft is about the same length on each. I have a JK Auto and Pro Staff and Advantage. I might get out the measuring tape. The cosmetics on them would be enough to throw the buyer off.
Back in the day, I could have sworn the JK Auto was lighter and more flexible than the ProStaff. That observation was based on swapping with a buddy of mine while we were hitting. Knowing what I know now, the difference in feel could have been and most likely was due to difference in string & tension.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
And--based on hitting with each--I would have sworn the same.And I really hate to add this, but Chris Evert reportedly said her Auto was a JK Autograph as well!
Looking at the photos above, it looks like the flake on the shaft is about the same length on each. I have a JK Auto and Pro Staff and Advantage. I might get out the measuring tape. The cosmetics on them would be enough to throw the buyer off.
Back in the day, I could have sworn the JK Auto was lighter and more flexible than the ProStaff. That observation was based on swapping with a buddy of mine while we were hitting. Knowing what I know now, the difference in feel could have been and most likely was due to difference in string & tension.
(Ah! The perception of reality is a fool's endeavor.)
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, what gets me is we didn't know or care back then what an RDC was, nobody cared about tension, and string? There was gut and synthetic.
ronnie
New User
I wouldn't call McEnroe a jerk and compare him to Scanlon as McEnroe achieved much more in the world of tennis then Scanlon did. Although Scanlon beat mac he was never a legend like mac was..
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