Making serves better?

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 4, 2009

I can hit my forehand pretty good and doing well with the 1hbh ever since i switched from the 2 hander. My reflexes and hitting volleys are all right, not bad enough to affect my overall game.

My worse enemy are the SERVES though. I keep hitting double faults with my kick serves. Are there any drills or vids that are REALLY good on flat serves, slice serves, and kick serves? My flat serves can get in 60% percent of the time but I have to sacrifice some of my power.

If people wanted to know, I use the eastern backhand grip for my kick serve (I saw on vids that eastern backhand provides more kick), but thinking of switching to continental to get the feel of the serve without switching grips. I have a problem of getting more kick on my serves and making them consistent. I want to learn both topsin and twist serves.

Lastly, slice is a new world for me. I don't know if I should pronate a lot on this serve. Also, speed is a problem for this serve. Since I am a lefty, I want to take advantage on the slice serve.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 5, 2009

Work on your 2nd serves. Develop a solid spin serve that you can get into play better than 85-90% of the time. The best thing that you can do for developing your 1st serve is to have a decent 2nd serve that you can rely on. This way, you will rarely double fault.

For your slice serve, you might want to toss slightly more to the left. Consider using a topspin-slice rather than a "pure" slice serve. This can be very effective as a lefty server -- especially when going out wide (on either service court). When going out wide on the ad side, you can hit a short, angled topspin serve rather than hitting a serve with a lot of slice. The topspin is used to help with the net clearance. The angle will pull the receiver out wide.

As a lefty server, don't overlook jamming right-handed players on their FH side -- it is difficult to hit a decent FH on a ball that is spinning into the body. For righties that like to run around to hit FHs on their BH side, I'll go right at them with the serve so that the ball breaks into the body as they try to run around it -- I call this my "heat-seeking" serve -- (even tho' the receiver is trying to run around to hit a FH return, the ball keeps following them).

goran_ace · Nov 5, 2009

Is your serving problem mainly technique or is it a mental thing too? I have played with guys in the past who could serve great in practice but tensed up during a match. If it is also a mental thing I would practice under pressure situations. Play tiebreakers best of 5 wins, or play out a set where the score always starts at 30-all and you only get one serve. Maybe even 'make it interesting' with a friendly wager - loser does pushups, loser buys gatorades

LeeD · Nov 5, 2009

I'd practice ONE second serve for at least until you get them in 47 out of 50 tries, with someone (maybe you) actually KEEPING COUNT!
Now you're ready to mess around with more sliced serves, or just pure topspin serves, or just kick serves.
As for the 60% first serves. YOU CANNOT DO IT! Not ever in a match...well out match out of 10 you can. AND, your first serves are too slow and weak, lacking direction and placement!
Practicing without playing MATCHES only makes you a good hitter, not a good tennis player.
Sorry, I'm being a little harsh here, but I just went thru this with a couple of local hitters.

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 5, 2009

for the topspin slice serve, from what o clock to o clock do I hit in motion of my racket?
I would like to learn both twist and topspin serves to mix up my serves. Isn't the topspin-slice, topspin, and twist serve forms the same, only that each serve has a different ball toss? Also, are they hit at different angles (from o clock to o clock?)? Just to let you know, since I am a lefty, the direction of motion is different.

I don't have a difficult time with a serve mentally. I just have a hard time hitting my serves and getting it over the net. Particularly, when I hit my second serves, I hit the ball with a slow swing speed, trying to have more control in my motion, but it always go into the net. Maybe the topspin motion is the problem? Do I need a faster swing speed?

LeeD · Nov 6, 2009

I'm lefty also...
Second serve swing, at my level (4.0) is swung MUCH FASTER than the first flat serve swing.
Topspin serve and topspin slice is the same motion, but can be either different toss location OR your body moves under or away from the same toss.
Kick and twist serves are hit with the racket moving UPWARDS, totally different than the moderate high bouncing topspin serves. K's and T's clear the net by much more, usually don't have quite the same amount of spin, usually hit slightly slower, and bounce much higher at the baseline.
If you can't hit over the net, aim HIGHER. My twists normally clear the net by 4' or so, topspin by 2-3' (depending on whether I'm choking or not), and first flats by inches.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 6, 2009

As LeeD indicates, good servers will swing faster, not slower, on 2nd serves (spin serves). Note that pros will often use 2 toss variations (1 for 1st serves, another for 2nd serves). I tend to use 3 toss variations for various serve types -- but as Lee suggested, I will also lean or move the body to adjust for different types of serves instead.

As a lefty server, I will brush from 6 to 12 or 5 to 11 for topspin (and topspin kick) serves. For topspin-slice, it might be closer to 4 to 10 (or 4:30 to 10:30). For a twist serve, I might toss to the right a bit more and brush upward on the right side of the ball. To get the ball to kick the other way, I'll hit a toss that is more overhead (or slightly to the left) and think about brushing up more on the left side of the ball (rather than the dead-center back of the ball).

Note that these are the ways that I visualize my brushing patterns across the back of the ball -- the reality, the actual brush patterns, might really be a slightly different -- as long as I achieve the desired result it doesn't really matter if my visualizations are not totally accurate.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 6, 2009

For more about toss variations and swinging patterns (and pronation):

FuzzyYellowBalls.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve

Operation Doubles - How to hit spin serves

Operation Doubles - Spindoctoring

Operation Doubles (archive) index
.

ryangoring · Nov 6, 2009

Beside FYB, which I like, and thanks Wil for help on my forehand.
But also Coach Kyril has some great advice on video for you as well:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CoachKyril

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 6, 2009

thanks every one. I was looking for operation doubles forever! thanks a lot for the site and the brushing motion.

I have used Coach Kyril, but I find it difficult to use the eastern backhand grip for kick serves. I tried it out for a while, but it doesn't spin as high as it should.

Although I can get the ball over the net now on topspin serve by brushing upward, the ball usually goes long. Also, the speed is really slow, no matter how fast I swing at the ball. This also applies to twist and topspin slice.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 7, 2009

d3vi1b0y6592 said:
thanks every one. I was looking for operation doubles forever! thanks a lot for the site and the brushing motion...

Unfortunately, not all of the Operation Doubles web site was archived -- some graphics and pages are missing. If you need something that wasn't successfully archived, you might try to get in touch with BB to see if he has it.

Slazenger07 · Nov 7, 2009

As a lefty myself, I know how important a good slice serve is for us. Imo this serve needs to be your bread and butter, your go to serve cause it is so tough for righties to handle if its good and can be really consistent as well. The toss is key, as it is with any serve. My toss for this serve is above and in front of my hitting (left) shoulder, then I visualize carving the outside of the ball with my strings as I swing with full force and shift my body weight into the serve for power. Use a continental grip, and make sure you get a good knee bend as this will help you get more power as well. If you can get that slice serve down so that its pretty fast and has lots of side spin, and make this your primary serve, I guarantee you'll be happy with the results. I know I am.

SuperFly · Nov 7, 2009

On your second serve, try to get 2 things: accuracy and height. Accuracy is self-explanatory: get the ball in. But height is what can make a slow 2nd serve really tough to play. Experiment with just hitting the ball from the shoulder, no motion. Try to generate just enough spin to pull the ball in. If you can do it like I can, the ball will jump maybe 1-1.5 feet.

Why is this effective?

Most players think that a second serve will be a kick or a slice. Both bounce with some height. But if you can make your 2nd serve skid low then you have your opponent caught off balance, getting low for the ball. They will have to hit upwards on the ball too, so there probably won't be a lot of spin on the return.

It won't blow away your opponent, but if you can hit a 2nd serve consistently deep in the box and make it skid, you can neutralize the return. Alternate high-bouncing and low-bouncing serves with solid placement and your second serve could be feared for something other than power.

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 8, 2009

Well, skidding low isn't much of a good serve, I think.
It is just like a flat serve, but slower, and if a person uses both serves, the returner can become use to the serves skidding.
That's why I want to learn how to make serves kick more (in terms of twist and topspin-slice). I'm still having a hard time making my serves kick. Maybe I am pronating too early? When do you guys start pronating, after contact with the ball, or before the contact?

ubermeyer · Nov 8, 2009

it's better to push in 2nd serves than have a 60% 2nd kick serve :shock:

LeeD · Nov 9, 2009

Pushing in a second serve is for 3.0 players. Nobody above 4.5 can get away with it.
Speeds... IF you can hit a flat first serve at 95-115mph....
topspin 1st serve 75-90
topspin 2nd serve 60-85
kick first serve 60-85
kick 2nd serve 55-75
More spin, less speed.

ubermeyer · Nov 15, 2009

LeeD said:
Pushing in a second serve is for 3.0 players. Nobody above 4.5 can get away with it.
Speeds... IF you can hit a flat first serve at 95-115mph....
topspin 1st serve 75-90
topspin 2nd serve 60-85
kick first serve 60-85
kick 2nd serve 55-75
More spin, less speed.

double faulting is for 2.0s and maria sharapova

papa · Nov 15, 2009

Something you might want to try and don't laugh until you try it.

Take a basket of balls and stand about 7-8 feet on the "outside" of the court - so your on the outside looking through the fence to the court. Now take balls and serve them "over" the fence so they land in a few feet toward your side of the net. See how many you can do.

After you do this for say 100 balls, go onto the court and try your second serve again - bet it works a lot better.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 16, 2009

^ Have done this fence exercise with students. It can be done with a "lob" serve. Try it also with a topspin serve.

papa · Nov 16, 2009

SystemicAnomaly said:
^ Have done this fence exercise with students. It can be done with a "lob" serve. Try it also with a topspin serve.

Well, I'm not talking about lob serves, whatever they are. I would like to see players using their second serve, swinging as hard or harder than the first, and just getting it over the fence. Instead of pure topspin, I'd like to see more of an twist - pure topspin will work but your not going to get any distance on the delivery,

LeeD · Nov 16, 2009

Seems to me, if you want you student to hit high arcing second serves, then just have them aim 5' higher than the net (8' high off the ground), and have them apply enough topspin to keep it inside the service line.
Make sure they swing FASTER than they do on first flat serves.
So the ballspeed just goes slower and slower until the balls go inside the service line, now have them increase their swingspeed.

papa · Nov 16, 2009

LeeD said:
Seems to me, if you want you student to hit high arcing second serves, then just have them aim 5' higher than the net (8' high off the ground), and have them apply enough topspin to keep it inside the service line.
Make sure they swing FASTER than they do on first flat serves.
So the ballspeed just goes slower and slower until the balls go inside the service line, now have them increase their swingspeed.

Well, first of all, first serves don't need to be flat - most serves need spin to stay in unless your really tall, like 6' 6" or more. In other words the serve has to go UP before it comes down.

The thing about the fence is that you want the ball highest arc to be closer to you, the server, and not have the highest point over the net - there is no way this will work right. The fence drill get you to get the ball up quicker and not have some long rainbow type arc - that won't work my friend.

You have to start with a fast swing speed - if you try what your suggesting, it won't work right, and the serves ends up discouraged. You can't/should not start slower and then try to speed it up. The fence gives you a pretty good idea of how the serve should go up quickly after it leaves the racquet.

LeeD · Nov 16, 2009

??? whoa nellie there....
Arc is the same no matter where you stand.
Clearing the net by 5', total height maybe 8', means the ball was HIGHER at it's highest point, so would do exactly the same.
Nobody cares about the location of the PATH of the ball. We care about where it lands! And landing is a distance control solution puzzle.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 16, 2009

papa said:
Well, I'm not talking about lob serves, whatever they are. I would like to see players using their second serve, swinging as hard or harder than the first, and just getting it over the fence. Instead of pure topspin, I'd like to see more of an twist - pure topspin will work but your not going to get any distance on the delivery,

The "lob" serve that I'm talking about would just be a slow or medium-paced, high-arching serve that probably only has mild/moderate spin. Probably not a serve really worth spending too much time on.

Not sure what you mean by your last statement. You can get plenty of distance with a spin serve that is primarily topspin -- a topspin kick serve. And what do you mean by "twist". A twist kick serve is a very advanced serve that is typically contacted on the "other" side of your head. (This serve has a strong topspin component as well as a good measure of spiral spin and some vertical-axis side spin).

Are you actually talking about a topspin-slice serve?

papa · Nov 16, 2009

LeeD said:
??? whoa nellie there....
Arc is the same no matter where you stand.
Clearing the net by 5', total height maybe 8', means the ball was HIGHER at it's highest point, so would do exactly the same.
Nobody cares about the location of the PATH of the ball. We care about where it lands! And landing is a distance control solution puzzle.

Well, I think your very mistaken about this whole process because the arc, for one thing, isn't the same and for another, this isn't really a "puzzle".

You might not care about certain aspects but again I think your absolutely wrong in your thinking process. The arc of a ball hit with topspin differs greatly than a ball hit flat - now you might not like this, or haven't studied that matter fully, but thats the way it is, sorry.

LeeD · Nov 16, 2009

You can't be serious....

Of course, I know the second serve TOPSPIN is hit with topspin...ya dink?
Don't matter if you stand on the street, or at the baseline, the topspin arc is the same if you hit it the same depth with the same spin with the same swing!
Are you really so juvenile you think you're the ONLY person who's thinking TOPSPIN serves here?
Geez dude.

papa · Nov 16, 2009

LeeD said:
You can't be serious....
Of course, I know the second serve TOPSPIN is hit with topspin...ya dink?
Don't matter if you stand on the street, or at the baseline, the topspin arc is the same if you hit it the same depth with the same spin with the same swing!
Are you really so juvenile you think you're the ONLY person who's thinking TOPSPIN serves here?
Geez dude.

Look, if you want to think the arc is the same (topspin vs flat) than so be it - the arc is the path the ball travels from racquet to where it lands.

I think your just talking in circles here ............. " ...topspin is hit with topspin...". "topspin arc is the same if you hit it the same depth with the same spin with the same swing". Hard to argue with either of these two statements.

However, can you name me some source, any tennis source, that would suggest hitting a second serve without topspin is the way to go? All of us are thinking topspin, to one degree or another, on the second serve. Thats why I suggested hitting the balls from outside the fence - the topspin brings the ball down quicker and the player can see that the ball has to get up quickly and not make a leisurely path to the target.

Dude (to use your vernacular) I'm just trying to help you understand this stuff, I didn't invent it. Sometimes, actually too often, things get posted that just send players in the wrong direction and I don't like to see that - I like the game too much.

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 17, 2009

uhh ... i got better in twist and topspin, but still having problems with topspin slice.

Thing is, even though I hit the ball way in "out" to the left (im a lefty, remember?), the ball hits the service box, and then shoots like a topspin or kick. I don't even know how it does it, but my serve doesn't shoot to the right.

Hey guys, thanks for giving advice for the twist and topspin, by the way.

LeeD · Nov 17, 2009

Papa, I would hope your comprehension skills are better than BungalowBill's or DJ's, but I guess not. You can't and don't understand what you read. End of story.

papa · Nov 18, 2009

LeeD said:
Papa, I would hope your comprehension skills are better than BungalowBill's or DJ's, but I guess not. You can't and don't understand what you read. End of story.

Well, you might be right. I thought I could read and evaluate what was written but maybe not - sometimes terms/word meanings get in the way. I have a fairly good education and have been around this sport for a long time but there is always something new to learn.

So, I accept your comments and will attempt to do better trying to understand the question at hand.

I've been familiar with BB's advice to this forum for quite a few years and he certainly does not need me, or anyone else, to speak for him. His advice, even when he disagrees with me, is excellent and I can't think of one post he has ever made that leads players in the wrong direction. This forum has several others who give sound advice also but BB is in a class by himself.

LeeD · Nov 18, 2009

How can a surfer dude give good advice? Just not possible, certainly not probable.

papa · Nov 18, 2009

LeeD said:
How can a surfer dude give good advice? Just not possible, certainly not probable.

Because for one thing, he was a college player and worked for Vic as an instructor. Most importantly, he has studied the game throughly from one end to the other. When he doesn't know something or unclear about it, like maybe rules, he's the first to admit it. Most top athletes/coaches have other interests - they would go crazy if they didn't.

LeeD · Nov 18, 2009

You mean.... I have a conti gripped serve, but I also twist it a certain way, which I won't tell you how, but it's not pure conti, it's twisted and turned a bit, but it's certainly NOT LeeD's conti twisted towards EBH for my serves....

Right handers sometimes have trouble teaching left handers, and vice versa!

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 21, 2009

hey guys, my twist and topspin serves going great ever since I got the Pb 10 mid.

I kinda got the topspin slice serve down with this racket, but I have trouble with the consistency. How can I make this serve go more right and have more consistency?

papa · Nov 22, 2009

LeeD said:
Right handers sometimes have trouble teaching left handers, and vice versa!

Some don't but I seem to have this problem at times because they want to keep telling me "things are different for a left hander". I don't buy that concept so we can sometimes start off on the wrong foot. Some instructors have the ability to play/demonstrate with either hand - I can do that to a very limited degree which might also be a limited factor.

LeeD · Nov 22, 2009

"demonstrate, play, and explain, teach and copy".....
I'm lefty, my right is the strong side, not the skill side.
You can't teach me, because none of my coach's thru junior high, high school, college, or thru grammar school (private coaching then) could figure out how a lefty with my poor learning skills can comprehend ideas and techniques. I've always had to TRY to figure it out on my own.
You may be lefty, or rightie, but you're not me, don't have my learning style, speed, or tendencies.
Not every lefty is the same. As not every rightie is the same. Some need visuals, some need repetitions, some need a certain mix, some need idealogies, desires, boredom, whatever.
No ONE technique works for teaching everyone!

Fedace · Nov 22, 2009

I think taking a lesson with a pro does help somewhat. but problem with that is very difficult to find a pro that knows what they are doing. you usually have to go to places like bolletieri's to find one.

LeeD · Nov 22, 2009

Just my opinion .....
SCREW all these brand name American coaches !!
They can't get ONE new American player who has a chance to break into the top 50 in mens unless the player is 6'6" tall and possess a 140 mph serve with angle and placement.
Meaning, that player would prolly get close to their level WITHOUT all that coaching they got!
Blake and Roddick both have unusual and NOT APPROVED strokes and techniques. Coaches would try to change their game before they get to 6.0, so they would never improve!
Whatcha dink about dat ??:shock::shock:

d3vi1b0y6592 · Nov 22, 2009

umm ... guys? stick with the topic?

LeeD · Nov 22, 2009

Why?
What's more fun? Ranting like a raving lunatic or obeying convention and follow the person in front of you ???
When I follow convention, I can't overtake it.....:shock::shock:
Is that over your head?

snowpuppy · Nov 22, 2009

I don't know why everyone thinks that spin is the magical answer to solving everything in tennis. If you are double faulting fix the toss and then maybe your mechanics.

papa · Nov 23, 2009

snowpuppy said:
I don't know why everyone thinks that spin is the magical answer to solving everything in tennis. If you are double faulting fix the toss and then maybe your mechanics.

You are so right, unless the toss/release is good everything else is going to be inconsistent at best. Not trying to be funny here but based on the toss/release, I can determine with amazing accuracy if the serve is going to be good.

papa · Nov 23, 2009

LeeD said:
"demonstrate, play, and explain, teach and copy".....
I'm lefty, my right is the strong side, not the skill side.
You can't teach me, because none of my coach's thru junior high, high school, college, or thru grammar school (private coaching then) could figure out how a lefty with my poor learning skills can comprehend ideas and techniques. I've always had to TRY to figure it out on my own.
You may be lefty, or rightie, but you're not me, don't have my learning style, speed, or tendencies.
Not every lefty is the same. As not every rightie is the same. Some need visuals, some need repetitions, some need a certain mix, some need idealogies, desires, boredom, whatever.
No ONE technique works for teaching everyone!

Very true. However, and I think you'll agree here, it doesn't make a lot of sense re-inventing the wheel all the time. Many things we know won't work, can't be used as a building block, generally lead to injury, etc. Once a player gets a grasp of the stroke basics, I think a fair amount of individualazation (might have just invented/misspelled a word here) should be encouraged and generally is.

LeeD · Nov 23, 2009

2handed volleys
Fully closed service stances.
Jump serves
2handed backhand overheads
Swinging volleys from no man's land
Leaving the ground on every forehand, but standing both feet on backhands.
Conti grips to counter current topspin groundies.
Slice using extreme Western grips to counter current topspin groundies.
The eastern european methodology of picking sports for youngsters while they are still under 6 based on genes.
Just some we haven't embraced, figured out, and mostly banned.

Bungalo Bill · Nov 23, 2009

papa said:
Very true. However, and I think you'll agree here, it doesn't make a lot of sense re-inventing the wheel all the time. Many things we know won't work, can't be used as a building block, generally lead to injury, etc. Once a player gets a grasp of the stroke basics, I think a fair amount of individualazation (might have just invented/misspelled a word here) should be encouraged and generally is.

Definetly don't want to reinvent the wheel. Most people who claim "that people learn differently" do not understand that instruction is and should be designed with exactly that in mind. Instruction should offer multiple ways to comprehend the material for how people learn and how people favor one way of receiving and comprehending information over another.

It is the tennis coach who can sense and realize the best way to present the same information in slightly different ways so that all of his students can benefit from knowledge transfer.

Most people who say they "learn differently" do not realize that people simply emphasize a way to receive information over another and the quality of that information not matter how it is delivered needs to be good.

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